Breaking news regarding KO on espn

[superjohn]

Maggatte is ancient history but on the fake classes it’s pretty simple. The university, not the NCAA, determines whether a class is going to “count.” There we’re so many people affected by the fake classes, not only athletes, and the down stream impacts would be so complicated that the University just let the classes stand. For a simple example let’s say you were In your 3rd year of med school but because a class got voided now you lack the credits to have a BA. What does that do to your standing in Med school since your admission was based on having graduated from college? For that matter how do you unaward a degree? The school basically reviewed that and many thousands of other situations and deemed it best to simply accept the credits rather than create a mess. The NCAA for its part had no choice but defer because it cannot review class content. That is a slippery slope which neither the
NCAA nor the schools were willing to accept. It opens you deciding whether an English class at Boise State is comparable to one at Harvard or wherther Professor Smith’s polisci 104 is acceptable while Professor Jones’ section isn’t.

Give me a break, the fake majors were created for athletes.

 

[huskymedic]

Calling BS. Though open to non-athletes, the numbers of non-athletes who actually took them were relatively few.

The actual breakdown of athlete to non-athlete who took the classes was close to 50-50.

 

[polycom]

Calling BS. Though open to non-athletes, the numbers of non-athletes who actually took them were relatively few. Pretty sure no one is losing their medical license over it.

I think the NCAA could have made a failure to monitor sanction. The school is responsible for reporting APR. The reports they submitted were false. UNC said as much to the accrediting agency, while saying that otherwise to the NCAA. Academic integrity of the student athlete is a core function of the NCAA, or so they say. Letting UNC walk completely legitimizes the NCAA in my opinion.

My friends at UNC said many non athletes took the classes...

 

[TRest]

My friends at UNC said many non athletes took the classes...

I remember reading that once the fraternities figured out there was a no-show major, the classes were flooded. But the department itself was a joke, and absolutely set up as a place to warehouse athletes.

 

[freescooter]

Nope. And apr is a different issue. It says players must be making progress toward a degree. Basically that you need to take x classes but it leaves the decisions about class content and policy such as grading to the schools. it says nothing about what classes or what degree. And no university is going to give the NCAA veto power over what makes a class legitimate. Never ever ever under no circumstances! The NCAA bylaws don’t permit it. The schools won’t permit it. Faculty won’t accept it. And that was the crux of this issue. If you take a class that the school accepts the NCAA cannot and will not overrule. It’s like the building inspector issuing a citation for speeding. He might want to but it isn’t within his mandate. And if the cop who has the authority to give speeding tickets let’s it go, the building guy can’t do anything about it.

 

[Rico444]

So what would stop every other school in the country from creating fake classes like this, if there's no penalty from the NCAA? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[CL82]

The actual breakdown of athlete to non-athlete who took the classes was close to 50-50.

Really? I thought I remembered the opposite being true. 50/50 would be an interesting breakdown.

 

[BlueMAB]

So what would stop every other school in the country from creating fake classes like this, if there's no penalty from the NCAA? I'm genuinely curious.

Losing their accreditation(s), which would drastically reduce admission applications (and likely donations/the endowment) and ultimately cause the school to go bankrupt and fold.

 

[CL82]

Nope. And apr is a different issue. It says players must be making progress toward a degree. Basically that you need to take x classes but it leaves the decisions about class content and policy such as grading to the schools. it says nothing about what classes or what degree. And no university is going to give the NCAA veto power over what makes a class legitimate. Never ever ever under no circumstances! The NCAA bylaws don’t permit it. The schools won’t permit it. Faculty won’t accept it. And that was the crux of this issue. If you take a class that the school accepts the NCAA cannot and will not overrule. It’s like the building inspector issuing a citation for speeding. He might want to but it isn’t within his mandate. And if the cop who has the authority to give speeding tickets let’s it go, the building guy can’t do anything about it.

I does require a minimal GPA. If that is being buoyed by fake classes, then the university's report to the NCAA was false. If they didn't know it was false, that is failure to monitor. Also student athletes are required to be full time students. If that was done do to no show, no effort classes, the university either lied or failed to monitor.

 

[crazyUCfan23]

That's how I'd describe what UConn's done to Kevin Ollie.

I know people have this narrative in their head that he got fired primarily because he was a bad coach and the violations were the final straw. No. He got fired entirely because of his coaching (which includes his recruiting). That's a key distinction because the violations only ever existed because of the poor coaching. What KO is accused of doing is child's play and everyone knows it. The University simply self-reported the violations because they needed to get out of the contract. And then, like a magic trick, the NCAA - a business partner - levied charges on him. What a coincidence!

"Oh this guy must just not be in on the DM chain. Doesn't he know that Ollie couldn't be bothered to do his job and may have done some other bad things as well?"

Let's hear them then. Have you ever stopped to consider something from someone else's perspective? Have you ever considered that corruption in the real world can stem from legitimate injustice as well? Do you think you always have the whole story when you get mad at how money is spent elsewhere? Or are you just always right? There's a common thread in all of that and it's a lack of transparency. The University is now unequivocally guilty, but hey, it's convenient this time!

"Do you expect me to shed a tear over a rich guy who was bad at his job not getting 10 mil"?

No. I expect you to shed a tear for your own continued involvement in a bureaucracy of which you're the victim. I expect you to begin recognizing the monopoly the school and the NCAA has over YOU. I expect you to recognize the danger in foregoing a democratic process because a couple biased parties decided that they were owed one.

"I dunno man, he broke the contract!"

Go talk to his lawyer then. Truth be told, I don't give a damn about whether Ollie gets this much money or that much money. There are more important things in the world.

I care about my school lying to me. I care about the fact that my school has been victimized by this shady business more than any other. I care about the fact that corruption breeds corruption, and if you don't have the courage to stop the cycle when the arrow lands on you, what's the point of even pretending you have an identity at all?

I don't care about what corporations or institutions can do to technically get away with things. I care about we can do. I care about our fanbase having a voice that represents us and not the status quo. Try being different, try being original. Ask yourselves what you want your role in this process to be. Follow my lead if you want the school to represent you and follow their lead if you want it to represent everything that's wrong with America. If you think you're progressive, if you think you're state's better than Alabama or Georgia because we're more educated, more enlightened? This is a test. Enter gate one and live up to your word or enter gate two and be a hypocrite.

This board has been great to me. I'm sincerely thankful to Tom, the rest of the admins, and everyone else who has made such a difference in my life these last eight years. I respect the intelligence of the people here tremendously and hope to continue learning from you moving forward.

But this isn't a difference in opinion for me, it's a crossroads. I'm not grandstanding, or posturing, or moralizing. I'm simply appealing to your appetite for listening to someone who's a lot more like you and a lot more invested in this matter than the noise coming from the other side.

The thing about this is that we matter so much more than Ollie's lawyers. The system is so stacked against anyone in Ollie's shoes that he's forced to defend himself by denying the allegations rather than mentioning the fact that, oh yeah, this is a business and they added the buyout to his contract because he was being pursued by freaking NBA teams.

We fund all of this and it's time for us to start having a say in what happens. Sure, you *can* ignore it. It's entertainment after all, so you're not going to go to hell for unknowingly ratifying things you can't see.

It's just that, the things you think you're doing in the interest of your school aren't always in the interest of your school. It's in the interest of our school to demonstrate a fighting spirit against the things that have largely ruined college sports. It's in the interest of our school to set the pace for change in our country.

I want you to think for a minute about who this is coming from. I'm not your gender studies professor or a social rights activist. I'm not Jay Bilas or Shaun King. I'm the person that studies hours of game tape, travels eight hours to and from tournaments without leaving my car, and writes mountains of paragraphs on January games, all for nothing. If I'm mad enough about something to leave, you should pay attention.

So I'll make things very simple and encourage you to boycott the program until Ollie is paid his buyout money and/or Benedict and Herbst are removed from their positions at the school. It's not the most important cause but it's the most important cause that's ours. DM me if you want to learn more about why I'm doing this or what we can do to maximize impact. Otherwise, have a nice life.

you are deranged. good businesses make decisions rooted in fact, not emotion.

 

[Rico444]

Losing their accreditation(s), which would drastically reduce admission applications (and likely donations/the endowment) and ultimately cause the school to go bankrupt and fold.

I get that, but is UNC facing any sort of investigation that would strip their accreditation?

 

[BlueMAB]

I get that, but is UNC facing any sort of investigation that would strip their accreditation?

They did, it's been handled.

UNC removed from probation by accrediting agency

 

[Peacefrog]

The actual breakdown of athlete to non-athlete who took the classes was close to 50-50.

Considering the student body is probably comprised of about 5% athletes, having 50% in these classes certainly seems like a statistically significant “anomaly”.

 

[huskymedic]

Really? I thought I remembered the opposite being true. 50/50 would be an interesting breakdown.

Considering the student body is probably comprised of about 5% athletes, having 50% in these classes certainly seems like a statistically significant “anomaly”.

>>For nearly two decades, UNC had, according to a university investigation, offered a "shadow curriculum" of so-called "paper classes." These classes, nearly 200 in total, required no attendance and only one paper. Some 3,100 students attended these paper classes, with some 1,500 student-athletes -- ahem, "student-athletes" -- being steered into these classes.

But because these sham classes in the African and Afro-American Studies Department were also open to non-athletes -- and since, yes, slightly more non-athletes took (ahem: "took") these classes than athletes -- the NCAA said this was an academic matter, not an athletic matter. After an interminable investigation, the NCAA determined this was outside of its limited jurisdiction.<<

 

[CL82]

>>For nearly two decades, UNC had, according to a university investigation, offered a "shadow curriculum" of so-called "paper classes." These classes, nearly 200 in total, required no attendance and only one paper. Some 3,100 students attended these paper classes, with some 1,500 student-athletes -- ahem, "student-athletes" -- being steered into these classes.

But because these sham classes in the African and Afro-American Studies Department were also open to non-athletes -- and since, yes, slightly more non-athletes took (ahem: "took") these classes than athletes -- the NCAA said this was an academic matter, not an athletic matter. After an interminable investigation, the NCAA determined this was outside of its limited jurisdiction.<<

Hmm convenient numbers. SMH - this pisses me off every time I think about it.

 

[BlueMAB]

Hmm convenient numbers. SMH - this pisses me off every time I think about it.

Consider that while a little over half of the students in the courses weren't athletes, they make up significantly more than 50% of the nearly 19,000 students enrolled. Most athletes took these courses, comparatively speaking, very few students took these courses. And UNC fans still argue they did nothing wrong.

 

[Rico444]

They did, it's been handled.

UNC removed from probation by accrediting agency

Seems like a very weak response to two decades of fake classes -- and the ultimate people that benefitted (the athletic coaches) received no punishments. I wouldn't be surprised if other universities tried this; the punishment isn't severe enough to deter them. Just fire a few professors, maybe the AD if the heat gets to be too much, and apologize and you'll be let off the hook.

 

[BlueMAB]

Considering the student body is probably comprised of about 5% athletes, having 50% in these classes certainly seems like a statistically significant “anomaly”.

You beat me to it.

 

[CL82]

Back on topic:

The Ollie camp remains vocal, out in front, the most proactive party in the public, and increasingly irrelevant, part of this depressing situation.
Link

 

[HuskyHawk]

So what would stop every other school in the country from creating fake classes like this, if there's no penalty from the NCAA? I'm genuinely curious.

Self respect. Embarrassment. UNC's reputation did take a little hit with this.

 

[intlzncster]

but on the fake classes it’s pretty simple. The university, not the NCAA, determines whether a class is going to “count.” There we’re so many people affected by the fake classes, not only athletes, and the down stream impacts would be so complicated that the University just let the classes stand. For a simple example let’s say you were In your 3rd year of med school but because a class got voided now you lack the credits to have a BA. What does that do to your standing in Med school since your admission was based on having graduated from college? For that matter how do you unaward a degree? The school basically reviewed that and many thousands of other situations and deemed it best to simply accept the credits rather than create a mess. The NCAA for its part had no choice but defer because it cannot review class content. That is a slippery slope which neither the
NCAA nor the schools were willing to accept. It opens you deciding whether an English class at Boise State is comparable to one at Harvard or wherther Professor Smith’s polisci 104 is acceptable while Professor Jones’ section isn’t.

Fair enough on the classes explanation, though I don't totally agree.

Nope. And apr is a different issue. It says players must be making progress toward a degree. Basically that you need to take x classes but it leaves the decisions about class content and policy such as grading to the schools. it says nothing about what classes or what degree. And no university is going to give the NCAA veto power over what makes a class legitimate. Never ever ever under no circumstances! The NCAA bylaws don’t permit it. The schools won’t permit it. Faculty won’t accept it. And that was the crux of this issue. If you take a class that the school accepts the NCAA cannot and will not overrule. It’s like the building inspector issuing a citation for speeding. He might want to but it isn’t within his mandate. And if the cop who has the authority to give speeding tickets let’s it go, the building guy can’t do anything about it.

If you take the UNC explanation as de rigueur, then why don't schools create fake classes for all their 'non'-student athletes? Throw a couple of regular students in there....and call it good. The 'non'-student athletes aren't their for a degree anyway.

Maggatte is ancient history

But how can you just brush Maggette under the table? It's not like this just came out. And take a look at Syracuse recently. They just vacated games back to 2004.

Maggette situation was cut and dry. And all but ignored at the time. They didn't even investigate.

 

[intlzncster]

Self respect. Embarrassment. UNC's reputation did take a little hit with this.

Honestly, nobody cares at this point. It's never mentioned. When it should be the first thing out of everyone's mouth in regards to their athletic programs.

 

[intlzncster]

They did, it's been handled.

UNC removed from probation by accrediting agency

'Handled'.

 

[intlzncster]

I does require a minimal GPA. If that is being buoyed by fake classes, then the university's report to the NCAA was false. If they didn't know it was false, that is failure to monitor. Also student athletes are required to be full time students. If that was done do to no show, no effort classes, the university either lied or failed to monitor.

The follow on is that the University can then report whatever grades/classes they want for APR purposes. We already know schools do this, but who knew it was openly allowed? UCONN is doubly stupid.

 

[freescooter]

So what would stop every other school in the country from creating fake classes like this, if there's no penalty from the NCAA? I'm genuinely curious.

I’m, maybe academic integrity. Desire not to be embarrassed. Faculty who have integrity. Academic accrediting organizations. Look UNC is a top national university and they got put on probation for this. That is precisely who SHOULD be overseeing academic fraud issues.