Breaking news regarding KO on espn

[jibsey]

'Handled'.

What UNC got for punishment and what we got boggles my mind considering what really happened.

 

[upstater]

Maggatte is ancient history but on the fake classes it’s pretty simple. The university, not the NCAA, determines whether a class is going to “count.” There we’re so many people affected by the fake classes, not only athletes, and the down stream impacts would be so complicated that the University just let the classes stand. For a simple example let’s say you were In your 3rd year of med school but because a class got voided now you lack the credits to have a BA. What does that do to your standing in Med school since your admission was based on having graduated from college? For that matter how do you unaward a degree? The school basically reviewed that and many thousands of other situations and deemed it best to simply accept the credits rather than create a mess. The NCAA for its part had no choice but defer because it cannot review class content. That is a slippery slope which neither the
NCAA nor the schools were willing to accept. It opens you deciding whether an English class at Boise State is comparable to one at Harvard or wherther Professor Smith’s polisci 104 is acceptable while Professor Jones’ section isn’t.

Universities do this all the time. There are transcript errors where students are asked to make up work (usually online) after they receive their degrees so that their transcript remains in good standing.

I would argue the opposite of what you wrote. In UNC's internal investigation, they determined that the classes were fraudulent classes designed for athletes. The coaches discussed these classes openly with advisors. This was in UNC's own investigation.

The NCAA could have easily acted on that admission and nothing else.

Furthermore, the NCAA could have looked at the APR scores more closely

 

[DarthGrumpy]

The actual breakdown of athlete to non-athlete who took the classes was close to 50-50.

Which is very supcicious considering three are what, a 100 total scholarship football and men's basketball players on the UNC Campus with an undergrauate population of roughly 19,000. I don't have the time to run the numbers right now; but, statisically, any class holding a 50/50 ratio of football and basketball players to 'regular' students over multiple semesters is a statistical impossibility without an external factor influencing the outcome.

 

[upstater]

I remember reading that once the fraternities figured out there was a no-show major, the classes were flooded. But the department itself was a joke, and absolutely set up as a place to warehouse athletes.

The reason this was easy to do is that you had one compliant professor--who should have been prosecuted but he wasn't (*because he had the goods on all the internal arrangements). But AA programs aren't actually departments (there are probably 3 such departments in the country). These are interdisciplinary majors with professors being borrowed other departments. I only mention this in the context of UNC to emphasize that there isn't a department chair nor is there oversight from colleagues, etc. You only have a program director, and in this case, the program director was the guy caught red-handed. The other courses in that program were taught by faculty with lines in other departments.

 

[the Q]

I've heard that argument. Just don't understand it. If an athlete takes a 'fake' class, common sense would dictate them ineligible. Hence my use of the term 'loophole'. I guess the ncaa's excuse is they offered the classes to everybody,which is the weak 'loophole'.

If the NCAA can't rule on academic matters, then how are they penalizing schools via the APR thing?

As far as Duke goes, Maggette should be ruled ineligible for 98-99,and Duke therefore should have to vacate that season (NCAA runner up). Do you think that'll happen? It won't.

Maggette even signed a sworn statement.

Exactly. The NCAA says they can’t regulare academics but uses apr like a weapon.

Can’t have it both ways.

 

[freescooter]

APR is about course numbers not course content. So APR says in essence you need to have x wqw of credits at the end of year 1 and y credits after year 2. It has nothing to do with how rigorous any individual course might be. It is similar to most college distribution requirements. To graduate you need to take 2 fine arts 2 social sciences 1 math 1 science and so forth. They don’t care if you take Theatre 102 or Art history 103 as long as you check the fine arts box. That’s apr. They don’t care what you take as long as you can check enough boxes.

And let’s be honest. Every athletic department has its list of classes and professors who are “sympathetic” to athletes. UConn did 25 years ago and does today I’m sure. Harvard does. Trinity does. And everyone on campus knows that Econ 201 with Jones is a killer but with Smith it’s a gut ( or whatever the current term for an easy A is at the particular school). UNC just carried it to an extreme.

 

[ctchamps]

APR is about course numbers not course content. So APR says in essence you need to have x wqw of credits at the end of year 1 and y credits after year 2. It has nothing to do with how rigorous any individual course might be. It is similar to most college distribution requirements. To graduate you need to take 2 fine arts 2 social sciences 1 math 1 science and so forth. They don’t care if you take Theatre 102 or Art history 103 as long as you check the fine arts box. That’s apr. They don’t care what you take as long as you can check enough boxes.

And let’s be honest. Every athletic department has its list of classes and professors who are “sympathetic” to athletes. UConn did 25 years ago and does today I’m sure. Harvard does. Trinity does. And everyone on campus knows that Econ 201 with Jones is a killer but with Smith it’s a gut ( or whatever the current term for an easy A is at the particular school). UNC just carried it to an extreme.

But the NCAA expects a grade minimum. It was concluded that papers were done by someone other than several players. That should have negated credits for those courses resulting in players ineligibility.

 

[Northbound]

That's how I'd describe what UConn's done to Kevin Ollie.

I know people have this narrative in their head that he got fired primarily because he was a bad coach and the violations were the final straw. No. He got fired entirely because of his coaching (which includes his recruiting). That's a key distinction because the violations only ever existed because of the poor coaching. What KO is accused of doing is child's play and everyone knows it. The University simply self-reported the violations because they needed to get out of the contract. And then, like a magic trick, the NCAA - a business partner - levied charges on him. What a coincidence!

"Oh this guy must just not be in on the DM chain. Doesn't he know that Ollie couldn't be bothered to do his job and may have done some other bad things as well?"

Let's hear them then. Have you ever stopped to consider something from someone else's perspective? Have you ever considered that corruption in the real world can stem from legitimate injustice as well? Do you think you always have the whole story when you get mad at how money is spent elsewhere? Or are you just always right? There's a common thread in all of that and it's a lack of transparency. The University is now unequivocally guilty, but hey, it's convenient this time!

"Do you expect me to shed a tear over a rich guy who was bad at his job not getting 10 mil"?

No. I expect you to shed a tear for your own continued involvement in a bureaucracy of which you're the victim. I expect you to begin recognizing the monopoly the school and the NCAA has over YOU. I expect you to recognize the danger in foregoing a democratic process because a couple biased parties decided that they were owed one.

"I dunno man, he broke the contract!"

Go talk to his lawyer then. Truth be told, I don't give a damn about whether Ollie gets this much money or that much money. There are more important things in the world.

I care about my school lying to me. I care about the fact that my school has been victimized by this shady business more than any other. I care about the fact that corruption breeds corruption, and if you don't have the courage to stop the cycle when the arrow lands on you, what's the point of even pretending you have an identity at all?

I don't care about what corporations or institutions can do to technically get away with things. I care about we can do. I care about our fanbase having a voice that represents us and not the status quo. Try being different, try being original. Ask yourselves what you want your role in this process to be. Follow my lead if you want the school to represent you and follow their lead if you want it to represent everything that's wrong with America. If you think you're progressive, if you think you're state's better than Alabama or Georgia because we're more educated, more enlightened? This is a test. Enter gate one and live up to your word or enter gate two and be a hypocrite.

This board has been great to me. I'm sincerely thankful to Tom, the rest of the admins, and everyone else who has made such a difference in my life these last eight years. I respect the intelligence of the people here tremendously and hope to continue learning from you moving forward.

But this isn't a difference in opinion for me, it's a crossroads. I'm not grandstanding, or posturing, or moralizing. I'm simply appealing to your appetite for listening to someone who's a lot more like you and a lot more invested in this matter than the noise coming from the other side.

The thing about this is that we matter so much more than Ollie's lawyers. The system is so stacked against anyone in Ollie's shoes that he's forced to defend himself by denying the allegations rather than mentioning the fact that, oh yeah, this is a business and they added the buyout to his contract because he was being pursued by freaking NBA teams.

We fund all of this and it's time for us to start having a say in what happens. Sure, you *can* ignore it. It's entertainment after all, so you're not going to go to hell for unknowingly ratifying things you can't see.

It's just that, the things you think you're doing in the interest of your school aren't always in the interest of your school. It's in the interest of our school to demonstrate a fighting spirit against the things that have largely ruined college sports. It's in the interest of our school to set the pace for change in our country.

I want you to think for a minute about who this is coming from. I'm not your gender studies professor or a social rights activist. I'm not Jay Bilas or Shaun King. I'm the person that studies hours of game tape, travels eight hours to and from tournaments without leaving my car, and writes mountains of paragraphs on January games, all for nothing. If I'm mad enough about something to leave, you should pay attention.

So I'll make things very simple and encourage you to boycott the program until Ollie is paid his buyout money and/or Benedict and Herbst are removed from their positions at the school. It's not the most important cause but it's the most important cause that's ours. DM me if you want to learn more about why I'm doing this or what we can do to maximize impact. Otherwise, have a nice life.

Would this be an example of a screed or a rant?

 

[Waquoit]

Would this be an example of a screed or a rant?

Tl:dr

 

[CL82]

Would this be an example of a screed or a rant?

Manifesto?

 

[freescooter]

Rant!

If you are bad at your job AND violate the rules AND lie to your superiors about it you are not putting yourself in a really good position.

You don’t like the NCAA, find some other entity. UConn could I suppose leave and play in the NAIA.

Ollie didn’t get screwed. He screwed himself. But 1 or 2 people want to continue to defend him and go to ridiculous lengths to do so. It doesn’t matter what North Carolina or Louisville did or didn’t do. Doesn’t matter what Jim Calhoun did or didn’t do. “ whataboutism” is not an excuse. It is an attempt to redirect the conversation from the facts.

 

[intlzncster]

Rant!

If you are bad at your job AND violate the rules AND lie to your superiors about it you are not putting yourself in a really good position.

You don’t like the NCAA, find some other entity. UConn could I suppose leave and play in the NAIA.

Ollie didn’t get screwed. He screwed himself. But 1 or 2 people want to continue to defend him and go to ridiculous lengths to do so. It doesn’t matter what North Carolina or Louisville did or didn’t do. Doesn’t matter what Jim Calhoun did or didn’t do. “ whataboutism” is not an excuse. It is an attempt to redirect the conversation from the facts.

Fair rant actually.

 

[Chief00]

Rant - Colleague - I respect your loyalty to KO but it’s basically over now. The facts don’t line up in his favor. Time to cut losses and focus lawyer costs on renegotiating alimony.

 

[Stinger92860]

He should have taken an nba job.

 

[tentoes4rings]

He should have taken an nba job.

I still think the NBA interest, especially prior to his last extension was overblown. His agent played a great game of poker and UConn took the bait by offering that undeserved extension.

 

[Paesano]

I still think the NBA interest, especially prior to his last extension was overblown. His agent played a great game of poker and UConn took the bait by offering that undeserved extension.

Yeah, when you look back and really think about it, the supposedly massive NBA interest made no sense. Yeah, the NBA sometimes pulls in college coaches but would a team really be THAT interested in a coach with that little experience? And the reason they wouldn't is exactly what played out. You need to see if someone can demonstrate sustained excellence and not just a good season or two. KO's agent was bluffing and UConn folded. While one can say, hey, that's how the game is played and good for him, then one also has to say that UConn is playing the game too now and good for them. No one has the moral high ground here but KO and his lawyer played the game first.

 

[Stinger92860]

He should be able to get a job as an assistant.

 

[tentoes4rings]

Yeah, when you look back and really think about it, the supposedly massive NBA interest made no sense. Yeah, the NBA sometimes pulls in college coaches but would a team really be THAT interested in a coach with that little experience? And the reason they wouldn't is exactly what played out. You need to see if someone can demonstrate sustained excellence and not just a good season or two. KO's agent was bluffing and UConn folded. While one can say, hey, that's how the game is played and good for him, then one also has to say that UConn is playing the game too now and good for them. No one has the moral high ground here but KO and his lawyer played the game first.

That’s my exact take on this. He and his agent got over on UConn first, then mailed it in, now the school is trying to get even.

 

[CL82]

I still think the NBA interest, especially prior to his last extension was overblown. His agent played a great game of poker and UConn took the bait by offering that undeserved extension.

I don't know if was undeserved, badly negotiated, but not undeserved. Remember KO had just won a natty and had done a terrific job of keeping the team together during the post-season ban. Extending the contract made sense. The terms on the other hand were ridiculously pro-Ollie provided that he didn't violate NCAA rules. Hopefully we won't (haven't) made the same mistake again.

 

[tentoes4rings]

I don't know if was undeserved, badly negotiated, but not undeserved. Remember KO had just won a natty and had done a terrific job of keeping the team together during the post-season ban. Extending the contract made sense. The terms on the other hand were ridiculously pro-Ollie provided that he didn't violate NCAA rules. Hopefully we won't (haven't) made the same mistake again.

The first 5 year extension right after the National Championship made perfect sense. But giving him the additional extension two years later made no sense whatsoever. Rumors were out there that OKC wanted him and possibly The Lakers. The school bought in and gave him the new extension.

 

[CL82]

The first 5 year extension right after the National Championship made perfect sense. But giving him the additional extension two years later made no sense whatsoever. Rumors were out there that OKC wanted him and possibly The Lakers. The school bought in and gave him the new extension.

Didn't remember that there were two. I'm sure you are right though.

 

[the Q]

I blame Durant.

Everyone was taking about how much he liked/respected Ollie. And that would give them an edge in keeping him. It was pure speculation by everyone and Ollie’s agent played it fantastically. That dude is a good agent.

 

[Deadrody]

Would this be an example of a screed or a rant?

I think, technically, it's more accurate to describe it as "DELUSIONAL"

 

[Deadrody]

And Glenn Miller continues to look like more and more of a scum bag.

What the... ? For blowing in a liar after he was fired ? Yeah, total scum there.

Try and get your priorities straight.

You can disagree with NCAA rules all day. Fact is, Kevin Ollie broke the rules. Period. And you can lament the fact that Glenn Miller's intentions were not noble all day. And yet, he turned in a liar and a rule breaker.

I defy anyone here with kids to tell me the lesson you should take from this is to keep quiet when your superiors are breaking the rules. Sorry, no way.

 

[Storrs South]

The Stan Simpson Show: UConn vs. Kevin Ollie