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Big Papi

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I love how you guys act as though only Boston fans look the other way about these things.

News flash: fans of every team are willing to look the other way when it comes to players' faults. Several important Yankee players were juicers (Clemens, Giambi, Sheffield), and they were far from role models as well.

This is not a Boston-specific thing, as much as you salty New Yorkers want that to be the case.
 
David 76 said:
What bipolar thinking. Either the guy is a saint who never used steroids or he is a cancer among us?
As a Yankee fan, I feared and respected him. Maybe I was fooled, but he brought joy to the game. I like him.
But to protest that he never used steroids, that is a form of idolatry reserved for Boston. His own words don't leave room for doubt. He "accidentally" used "only what every other player was using" and"apologized" for being careless. For that, I will take Andy Pettitte any day
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You do realize that they were not just testing for steroids right? That hundreds of products available at GNC to the general public, and used by nearly every amateur and pro athlete, plus thousands of ordinary people, would trip that test? Now read his words in that context. He used what everyone used...yes...ordinary stuff from GNC that was later banned. He has specifically denied ever using steroids.

Anybody ever use Sudafed? Or any cold medicine containing Pseudoephedrine? Do you know that it will trigger a positive under the MLB or NFL tests? It's very easy for these guys to make a mistake. At this point, they can't ingest anything not provided by the team because it's so ridiculous.
 
superjohn said:
Got it. Bonds, Clemens, ARod and Ortiz never juiced.
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Bonds juiced. Clemens juiced (the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history, who'd go into the HOF in a Boston cap). ARod juiced. There's no evidence that Ortiz juiced. Zero. He may or may not have failed a random test for hundreds of substances, but has not failed tests since implemented by MLB in 2004.
 
David Ortiz is a superstar and should be a lock for the hall of fame. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being objective. The argument that he was only a Dan Hurley is weak at best.
 
BigErnMcCracken said:
It's not worth saying something this dumb just to take a shot at a fanbase you don't like. Ortiz and Bonds? Haha.
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Of course Bonds and Ortiz used, at least half the league was using. Bonds never failed a MLB test for steroids. I don't like that the Red Sox fanbase looks the other way when it's one of their own. I would never do that with players from my favorite team, just call it straight.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Even the league now says Ortiz may not have failed the one test he failed in 2003. He's been tested all along, including this year, where does this nonsense come from? Jealousy I suppose. Those who can't perform tearing down those who can.
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And to give the stock answer.... ARod has been tested like crazy his entire career and only failed one test; the same one Ortiz was reputed to. In fact, the last steroid "scandal" (Biogenesis) had exactly 0 failed tests amongst its suspended players. Those guys were done-in by a disgruntled worker. And maybe those results are disputed, there are 7 total players from that list who have been pretty reliably leaked.

1) ARod
2) Manny
3) Sosa
4) David Segui
5) Jason Grimsley
6) Larry Bigbie
7) Ortiz

The other 6 were either named by the Mitchell Report (Segui, Bigbie - outed as 2003 failures), failed a test (Manny, Sosa), were outed by a news organization (SI --> ARod, NYTimes --> Ortiz, Manny) or admitted to investigators that they were users (Grimsley). And various reports (again, who knows) state that 96 legitimately failed the test based on substances that were banned at the time. The other 8 used supplements that were not banned yet.
 
Huskybass said:
David Ortiz is a superstar and should be a lock for the hall of fame. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being objective. The argument that he was only a Dan Hurley is weak at best.
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Absolutely agree... I think they should let the performance be the indicator and forget all of the rumors, etc. He's one of the "clutchest" hitters I've ever seen and has carried a team like few others have.
 
superjohn said:
Immune your character, bwahahaha.
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He has asked you to provide your reasons 20 times and you keep dodging the question. Why don't you stop running from the question and answer him.
 
Had to check back. When I first saw the @Kemba'sYogurt post it was obvious many pages of smack were about to be had. Great rivalry. Something UConn men's bb and football are missing.

And what is the significance of yogurt and Kemba?
 
Jerry1714 said:
He has asked you to provide your reasons 20 times and you keep dodging the question. Why don't you stop running from the question and answer him.
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Dodging and running from what? Ortiz is a user, he failed the test in 2003 and lied about not knowing he failed until 2009. He has had a persecution complex about it saying he has been tested more than any player in mlb. Arguing his case for several years to the press on why he's a Hall of Famer also strikes me as a guy who is only out for himself. He has interrupted press conferences to call out scorekeepers, he has gone after journalists who dared question him. When the going is good he comes across as a loose and jovial guy as soon as things are going badly or he's questioned he turns defensive as hell and nasty. I could go on and on about why I think he's a phony, Sammy Sosa was also once beloved and I saw through his act as well.
 
Jerry1714 said:
You sure you want to know?
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LOL. It would be the only original information in this thread. The moment anything about professional sports for a New York or Boston team appears you get the same collection of supporters and detractors having a go at it. And the yardstick never moves. At least mice on a wheel get exercise. I guess finger movement is aerobic.
 
104 names on a list. And any one on it is under suspicion. Oh, except. Ortiz. You know he didn't. Because MLB said his test only showed legal substances? No, because they say he may not have used. It was (supposed to be) a confidential test. What do you think they would say?

No on is tougher on their own players than Yankee fans.
Mann's behavior would not have been tolerated in .NY.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Even the league now says Ortiz may not have failed the one test he failed in 2003. He's been tested all along, including this year, where does this nonsense come from? Jealousy I suppose. Those who can't perform tearing down those who can.
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Hilarious. They haven't caught Trumbo either. It's pretty simple but you guys continue to look the other day - first guy ever to perform like this at 40 and the first guy in the 500 HR club to hit 97% of his MR's after the age of 26 - Hmmmmmm if you don't get that you're just naive Hawk, great Husky fan, love you for sure but this is just unfounded how you treat the obvious. Hell ARod never tested positive either I should stick by him too huh? LOL
 
Huskybass said:
David Ortiz is a superstar and should be a lock for the hall of fame. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being objective. The argument that he was only a Dan Hurley is weak at best.
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Even without steroids it's a very good argument and only a Sox fan would think otherwise. If you're not a pitcher you are asked to catch, throw, hit, run the bases and hit for power. He has 2 of 5 in his arsenal, a very below average fielder who doesn't even want to be out there., doesn't run out ground balls ever, an embarrassment. Great hitter since he found Manny and Fenway at 26 nothing at all to talk about prior. Great clutch hitter too, learned to be a professional hitter potentiall because he "saw the ball better after 2003" LOL

But if Bagwell, ARod, Clemens, Palmiero, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire get in then so should he, that I will agree with.
 
mauconnfan said:
Hilarious. They haven't caught Trumbo either. It's pretty simple but you guys continue to look the other day - first guy ever to perform like this at 40 and the first guy in the 500 HR club to hit 97% of his MR's after the age of 26 - Hmmmmmm if you don't get that you're just naive Hawk, great Husky fan, love you for sure but this is just unfounded how you treat the obvious. Hell ARod never tested positive either I should stick by him too huh? LOL
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If you knew anything about Ortiz history in Minnesota you'd know he had two broken wrists during his time with the Twins. Even so, he managed to hit 38 HR in just over 700 at bats during his last two seasons (his age 25 and 26 seasons) or roughly a 30 HR pace for a full-time player.

The problem in Minnesota was that he wasn't a full-time player. Tom Kelly wanted him to be more of a line drive hitter rather than a go for the fences slugger. Between injuries, lack of a position, and his manager's dislike for his approach, he never became a true regular in Minnesota.

He wasn't even a regular when he first got to Boston. He was splitting Dan Hurley time with the immortal Jeremy Giambi and playing occasional 1B while only hitting about .200 through his first month plus. Once Giambi (who was hitting even worse) was out of the way and Ortiz became the everyday Dan Hurley for the last 2/3 of the season he just took off and never looked back.
 
kibblesnbits said:
If you knew anything about Ortiz history in Minnesota you'd know he had two broken wrists during his time with the Twins. Even so, he managed to hit 38 HR in just over 700 at bats during his last two seasons (his age 25 and 26 seasons) or roughly a 30 HR pace for a full-time player.

The problem in Minnesota was that he wasn't a full-time player. Tom Kelly wanted him to be more of a line drive hitter rather than a go for the fences slugger. Between injuries, lack of a position, and his manager's dislike for his approach, he never became a true regular in Minnesota.

He wasn't even a regular when he first got to Boston. He was splitting Dan Hurley time with the immortal Jeremy Giambi and playing occasional FB while only hitting about .200 through his first month plus. Once Giambi (who was hitting even worse) was out of the way and Ortiz became the everyday Dan Hurley for the second 2/3 of the season he just took off and never looked back.
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Shhhh we don't want facts here.
 
mauconnfan said:
Hilarious. They haven't caught Trumbo either. It's pretty simple but you guys continue to look the other day - first guy ever to perform like this at 40 and the first guy in the 500 HR club to hit 97% of his MR's after the age of 26 - Hmmmmmm if you don't get that you're just naive Hawk, great Husky fan, love you for sure but this is just unfounded how you treat the obvious. Hell ARod never tested positive either I should stick by him too huh? LOL
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I'm not fond of accusing people without more than circumstantial evidence. I also don't think steroids have enough of an impact to account for his average and clutch hitting. I'd also wager that modern fitness, nutrition etc. will drive longevity up. I'm 50 and I know what 50 years old looked like even 30 years ago, they looked like 70 year olds do now. It's not a Sox thing for me, I'd give anyone the same benefit of the doubt.

I still remember Fred Lynn suddenly hitting way more HR. They asked him what he did, said he discovered something called "Nautilus". I remember listening to the interview, thinking Nautilus, what the hell is that? Ortiz lost a lot of weight about 3-4 years ago and hired a dietitian or something. Maybe he talked to Brady, I don't know, but he's more fit now than he was at 35. That doesn't mean steroids, just a higher level of effort and attention to detail.
 
Ortiz twice hit over 30 HR in the minors. With the shorter seasons and promotions that is pretty rare. Mau has always tried to pass off this perspective that Ortiz wasn't viewed as a power hitter until he got to Boston. Well, that's complete BS. We can argue that he's a limited player because of his size, lack of speed and defensive issues, but he was always able to hit and hit for power. That's why George Steinbrenner wanted his guys to sign him in 2003 and they've regretted not doing so ever since.

As for the HoF, Dan Hurley is a legitimate position. It's no less worthy of consideration than closers, who generally pitch 20 or fewer pitches per game and never see the same hitter twice.
 
kibblesnbits said:
If you knew anything about Ortiz history in Minnesota you'd know he had two broken wrists during his time with the Twins. Even so, he managed to hit 38 HR in just over 700 at bats during his last two seasons (his age 25 and 26 seasons) or roughly a 30 HR pace for a full-time player.

The problem in Minnesota was that he wasn't a full-time player. Tom Kelly wanted him to be more of a line drive hitter rather than a go for the fences slugger. Between injuries, lack of a position, and his manager's dislike for his approach, he never became a true regular in Minnesota.
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You are also forgetting knee issues requiring arthroscopic surgery during the year (2002). Cost him half a season of good production.

As I mentioned before, when he was healthy, and given consistent playtime time, he raked. At every level.
 
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