Big East, C7, AAC, NBE Split/Restructuring Re-Visited (Yada, yada, yada...) | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Big East, C7, AAC, NBE Split/Restructuring Re-Visited (Yada, yada, yada...)

businesslawyer said:
You know how he knows he’s wrong? He uses the word “technically” as if it modifies the description of what actually happened that follows.
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Some people believe that technically right is the best kind of right. #alternativefacts
 
SubbaBub said:
To.believe your mistaken POV, would mean that the C7 booted UConn and thr other FB members. Which is decidedly not what happened. Your exercise in semantics is just wrongheaded.

In fact, at the time, this kind of thinking was the main argument against selling the Big East name, but in order to entice new FB members the remaining schools needed money. Money which was owed to the seditious 7. A settlement afterwards doesn't change the facts. They left.
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No. The C7 didn’t boot UConn. The conference split.

The basketball schools had more claim to the origins and heritage of the Big East and negotiated to keep the name.

What was cobbled together as football members in the final year before the split had less connection to the name and history. Only UConn in that group had ties to the 1980s Big East.

The C7 preserved the Big East. UConn collected the cash, gave the AAC a fair chance to negotiate a TV deal, and then came home after the AAC failed in its negotiations.
 
Stop the madness. There was a split with several schools leaving the (old) Big East, brought in schools from other conferences, and started a brand new league. They bought the old name, but it was still a new league with a new charter. The NCAA even had to give their blessing to the new conference.

www.vuhoops.com

D1 Board recognizes new Big East

Another substantial step for the new Big East Conference clarifies their standing in college athletics.
www.vuhoops.com www.vuhoops.com
 
JeepCSC said:
Stop the madness. There was a split with several schools leaving the (old) Big East, brought in schools from other conferences, and started a brand new league. They bought the old name, but it was still a new league with a new charter. The NCAA even had to give their blessing to the new conference.
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GM is 13 years old, founded in 2009.
 
Zissou said:
No. The C7 didn’t boot UConn. The conference split.

The basketball schools had more claim to the origins and heritage of the Big East and negotiated to keep the name.

What was cobbled together as football members in the final year before the split had less connection to the name and history. Only UConn in that group had ties to the 1980s Big East.

The C7 preserved the Big East. UConn collected the cash, gave the AAC a fair chance to negotiate a TV deal, and then came home after the AAC failed in its negotiations.
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I’d say it differently. Aresco had a vision for the Big East conference as a national conference. The Big East name wasn’t necessary to that vision in, two an extent actually impeded it. In the meantime Aresco did not want to lose any of the football playing members of the conference. So he made the decision to allow the Catholic seven to buy the Big East name. Ultimately, I think we can agree that his decision was the wrong one. He gave up the branding of a truly great conference and basically tried to construct a more successful version of Conference USA.
 
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Zissou said:
GM is 13 years old, founded in 2009.
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It’s true in one sense, as that is the date of the new GM entity created. But that was basically a parlour trick of a paper company created to strip liabilities from assets, and was basically a government-approved restructuring of a bankrupt company. The old company only existed long enough to pay down debts, before it served it’s function and ceased to exist. Say what you want about the AAC, it is not that.
 
JeepCSC said:
It’s true in one sense, as that is the date of the new GM entity created.
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Exactly, there is technically a new legal entity but the history, continuity, name, and brands are widely recognized as the continuation of GM.

There is rarely a nerd argument of “my 2009 Corvette is the last model year of the real GM company. The 2010 models are really from a completely different company.”

The current Big East is technically a new legal entity that brought with it assets from the old entity - history, name, logo, MSG contract, etc. The continuity includes membership of Georgetown, Providence, St John’s, seton hall, and Nova (and now UConn with a brief interruption) from the conference’s origins. 6 of the first 8 teams from the original entity are in the current entity.

The entity is just a convenient legal mechanism to navigate the conference split. One part continued as the Big East in a new legal entity. One part continued as the AAC in the old entity.

The current KFC is in an entity that dates back to 1997.
 
No, seriously, stop. This was not a corporate restructuring. It was exactly what that link said it was. A new conference that had to get approval to be created. When Villanova et al left, they had no way of knowing if they could later negotiate to take the name. They simply took the formal steps necessary to leave their league and build a new one.

To wit, Creighton is a founding member of the new Big East.
 
Pretty clear from link...

Another significant hurdle was cleared on Thursday, when the NCAA's Division I Board of Directors met and officially recognized the new Big East Conference as a Division I multisport conference, effective on August 1, 2013. The conference, founded by Villanova, Georgetown, Marquette, St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, Xavier, Butler and Creighton, will launch for the 2013-14 academic and athletic year.




The Board similarly noted that the current Big East Conference would become the American Athletic Conference ("The American") on July 1, 2013, clearing the way for the new conference to adopt the Big East name. The American will retain the Big East's permanent seat on the Division I Board of Directors and their three votes.
 
No question on the legal entity tracking. That’s already explained.

​
​
GM is launching a slate of new products. Can they give a lift to the auto giant as it enters a new era? Will the 'new' GM succeed?
​
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- After a six-week trip through bankruptcy, the "new" General Motors was born Friday owned by the government and free of tens of billions in debt and shed of unaffordable brands, dealerships and plants.
The sale of the valuable assets of the old company to the new GM was completed Friday morning.
"This is an exciting day for General Motors, one that will allow every employee, including me, to get back to the business of designing, building and selling great cars and trucks and serving the needs of our customers," GM Chief Executive Fritz Henderson said.
———
The KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell restaurant chains were spun off by longtime owner PepsiCo Inc. after trading ended today and they now share a new corporate banner, Tricon Global Restaurants Inc.
 
GM went bankrupt and it used a legal loophole to restructure itself. KFC’s corporate owner spun it off into a new company. Neither of those things happened with the Big East.

What happened with the Big East is clear. The Villanova article walks you through it step-by-step. Ten years of wishing and hoping things had happened differently, that the AAC had been the one to leave, don't change the facts. A new league bought the name of the old league. The old league lives on to this day. I am not sure at what point in time “new” became a pejorative to people in this situation, but that is something you’ll have to work on in your own time.
 
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JeepCSC said:
Ten years of wishing and hoping things had happened differently, that the AAC had been the one to leave, don't change the facts.
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Jeep, you are the only one saying that. No one else is claiming that the AAC left anything. The conference split.

Also, Jeep has changed entities many times over the years. The current Jeep is part of a new entity as of a year ago.
 
Tired Good Night GIF
 
Oh for pete's sake both WV and Cincy joined the Big East Conference and both were invited to the Big 12. It's that simple. Neither program made a move in between. I'll throw Houston and UCF in there too. And let's not forget TCU. :cool:

what is also crystal clear is that the C7 left the big east conference to form their own basketball conference.

Hey, they gave their word. "The move comes after the Horned Frogs had already committed to joining the Big East conference for next year. By bolting from the Big East before officially joining, TCU owes a $5 million exit fee, Del Conte said, though they will not have to wait the required 27 months before leaving. TCU was scheduled to join the Big East on July 1."
 
Zissou said:
Jeep, you are the only one saying that. No one else is claiming that the AAC left anything. The conference split
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The conference collectively did not decide to split. The C7 decided to leave. Subsequently the conference met with the leavers and figured out a settlement. That cause-and-effect is important to note, because the first had to happen before we get to the second. The settlement reached meant the new conference could be called the Big East. To avoid confusion, it was known colloquially (including by the Villanova website that wrote about the new conference) the New Big East.

At some point apparently people began to take umbrage with the New/Old Big East terms. I didn’t realize that until this past few weeks. First the other poster cried foul about West Virginia being called an Old Big East team. Now you are absolutely going to the mattresses over this, tracing corporate history in a bid to absolve the C7 from culpability or something.

I don’t even think it’s a big deal what the C7 did. They realized the BE wasn’t what they truly wanted. They struck out on their own, built a new conference, bought the name, invited others, and now have a good thing going. If we could all agree on that, we could call it a day. But you seem wedded to this idea that there was no new conference, and if there was it was the AAC that was new. Have at it if you desire, but I (and logic) won’t endorse it.
 
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JeepCSC said:
But you seem wedded to this idea that there was no new conference, and if there was it was the AAC that was new. Have at it if you desire, but I (and logic) won’t endorse it.
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I agree with your points, mostly.

No argument about the new entity. It was technically a new conference, made necessary by the split, and brought with it key assets - branding, contracts, etc.

It is very analogous to the New GM, or New KFC, or New Jeep. Mostly the same people and teams doing the same business under the same names with continuity to the original entities. But, technically, new entities.

I’m not particularly bothered by “new”. At this point it’s not so new. Neither is the new GM.

I listen to my ACC friends lament over the new ACC. It’s too diluted…. Not as good as the old ACC which flamed more heated rivalries.
 
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Zissou said:
No argument about the new entity. It was
technically a new conference.
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FIFY. The rest is just word salad.

I think it’s time to stop beating the horse. It’s pretty much fully decomposed.
 
JeepCSC said:
My dad used to complain about Georgia Tech in the ACC. And he just rolled his eyes at Florida State. I think in sports, our ideal conference is the one we knew at age 15.
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The one that commenced as an athletic conference when I was 6 (1954) remains unchanged...........The Ivy League.
 
Kolumbo said:
what is also crystal clear is that the C7 left the big east conference to form their own basketball conference.
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Oh, for Pete’s sake, there was no conference left for them to leave. All that was left was us, Cincy, and UCF with Louisville on its way out the door
 
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JeepCSC said:
The conference collectively did not decide to split. The C7 decided to leave. Subsequently the conference met with the leavers and figured out a settlement. That cause-and-effect is important to note, because the first had to happen before we get to the second. The settlement reached meant the new conference could be called the Big East. To avoid confusion, it was known colloquially (including by the Villanova website that wrote about the new conference) the New Big East.
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The collective decision to provide the mechanism for a split was not made in 2012-13. It was made a decade earlier. We’re you not alive then.

The defection of BC and Miami was a shock to the entire league. We filed a lawsuit about the “raid” and a number of other Big East members signed on. Everyone was forced to reevaluate their situation. In Virginia Tech’s case, it meant that they too defected to the ACC shortly afterwards.

There had already been tension within the league between basketball and football interests. It took 4 years for the non-football all-sports members to agree to let some of the football schools in as full members back in 1995 but only with the inclusion of Notre Dame as a non-football member. It took another 5 years before Virginia Tech to be granted full membership because the non-football schools had been concerned about the level of their basketball program guaranteeing that they would always be a football-first member.

All of this came to a head in 2003 when BC and Miami left. The way the football vs basketball tensions and the fear by the basketball schools that they would be an appendage to a football-centric conference was that 2 more non-football members - Marquette and DePaul - were added so that each wing of the conference would have sufficient membership to be a stand-alone conference in their own right. The football members had a vested interest in resolving these issues as well. They needed the non-football members to agree to add replacements for BC, Miami, and VA Tech. They also needed protection against non-football members having enough votes to prevent the conference from addressing football issues. They didn’t want to be in a conference where the basketball tail was wagging the dog.

The solution was the pre-nup agreement which provided the mechanism for either side to trigger a split if the demands of the other wing had become greater than they could tolerate. It could be triggered by either wing if they made the decision en masse; it was not just an out for the non-football members. In recognition of that, it was agreed that there would be no exit fees although 27 months notice was required - but later waived in 2013.

Of course there was not a collective decision to split in 2013. It always takes one party to initiate a divorce. But both sides had agreed a decade earlier to the pre-nup that allowed for the split. It was also agreed during the negotiations for the split to formally acknowledge in writing that the origin of both wings of the conference - both now separate and standing alone - was in 1979. In other words, formal recognition that each half was not a new conference but a continuation of the original Big East. Each wing agreed that there was a shared history and to share conference records of that history.

So, you are wrong when you state that there was a “new conference”. There was not and is not. That’s not my opinion. It’s in the official records. It was an agreement reached by all parties back in 2003 and honored by all parties in 2013.
 
Billy Jack said:
Oh, for Pete’s sake, there was no conference left for them to leave. All that was left was us, Cincy, and UCF with Louisville on its way out the door
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Correction: I meant to say USF.

While I’m at it, let’s be clear about something, the C7 has the ability in 2013 to dissolve the conference if they wanted to. With Louisville having already given notice of withdrawal and therefore having lost its voting privileges and with Notre Dame doing the same in March, the C7 had the 2/3 votes needed to simply dissolve the conference. Cincy, USF, and UConn needed the the pre-nup to survive as much as the C7 needed it to continue as a conference.
 
Billy Jack said:
Correction: I meant to say USF.

While I’m at it, let’s be clear about something, the C7 has the ability in 2013 to dissolve the conference if they wanted to. With Louisville having already given notice of withdrawal and therefore having lost its voting privileges and with Notre Dame doing the same in March, the C7 had the 2/3 votes needed to simply dissolve the conference. Cincy, USF, and UConn needed the the pre-nup to survive as much as the C7 needed it to continue as a conference.
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So in summary:

1. A conference called the Big East (OBE) formed in 1979. To clarify and avoid semantics crap. There were original members of the OBE, like UConn and St. John’s, and members of the OBE like UConn, St. John’s, WVa, and Virginia Tech.

2. A lot of stuff happened between 1979 and 2013. This includes identity, football vs. non-football, being gutted by the ACC, etc.

3. In 2013 seven schools, including original members of the OBE, decided to break away from the OBE and form a new conference, whose formation was approved by the NCAA as a new conference.

4. There were agreements regarding this breakaway. One was that the OBE agreed to let the new conference to be called the Big East (NBE). The OBE then became known as the American Athletic Conference (AAC). Both conferences were allowed to maintain the records of the OBE.

5. The C7 maybe could have done things differently, so that they would be regarded as the legal successor of the OBE, but didn’t.

6. UConn eventually decided to leave the OBE, then and now known as the AAC, and join this new conference then and now known by as the Big East (NBE). In order to do so, they had to go through the normal processes of leaving a conference and joining a new one.

7. People are free to believe that the NBE is really the continuation of the OBE, just as people are allowed to call margarine butter, if they really believe the margarine tastes more buttery than butter.
 
Your summary is nonsense. You’re ignoring the fact that the C7 “broke away” from 3 schools - us, Cincy, and USF. Three schools is not a conference and never was. This idea is laughable. Those 3 added 5 more to preserve their bowl bid. If anyone formed a conference, it was this group which had not been affiliated before.

There was no “OBE” without the C7 agreeing to recognize the 3 schools as a continuation of the old conference, without allowing them to continue via expansion as provided for in the 2003 agreement, and without them agreeing not to dissolve the conference as they could have.
 
The C7 had to start a new conference because they wanted a new tv contract. As conferences are now simply an extension of the tv contract, that’s probably the most compelling reason to believe the C7 left the old Big East. Besides the pesky fact that the C7 did leave the old Big East.

“The decision has been made. The Big East Conference's basketball-only schools - St. John's, Seton Hall, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Villanova - have decided to leave the league”


newyork.sbnation.com

The end: St. John's, Seton Hall to leave Big East

The Big East Conference basketball-only schools decided Thursday it will leave the league. The seven schools, which include St. John's and Seton Hall, will now need to possibly find a new home and rebuild a basketball league for scratch.
newyork.sbnation.com newyork.sbnation.com
 
JeepCSC said:
The C7 had to start a new conference because they wanted a new tv contract. As conferences are now simply an extension of the tv contract, that’s probably the most compelling reason to believe the C7 left the old Big East. Besides the pesky fact that the C7 did leave the old Big East.

“The decision has been made. The Big East Conference's basketball-only schools - St. John's, Seton Hall, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Villanova - have decided to leave the league”


newyork.sbnation.com

The end: St. John's, Seton Hall to leave Big East

The Big East Conference basketball-only schools decided Thursday it will leave the league. The seven schools, which include St. John's and Seton Hall, will now need to possibly find a new home and rebuild a basketball league for scratch.
newyork.sbnation.com newyork.sbnation.com
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Yes, they split the old league into two. The real issue is how they did it because the simplest way would have been to dissolve the old league if all they wanted to do was leave and end it. They had the votes to do that. So, why didn’t they?
 
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