Big East, C7, AAC, NBE Split/Restructuring Re-Visited (Yada, yada, yada...)

[Kolumbo]

Oh for pete's sake both WV and Cincy joined the Big East Conference and both were invited to the Big 12. It's that simple. Neither program made a move in between. I'll throw Houston and UCF in there too. And let's not forget TCU.

what is also crystal clear is that the C7 left the big east conference to form their own basketball conference.

Hey, they gave their word. "The move comes after the Horned Frogs had already committed to joining the Big East conference for next year. By bolting from the Big East before officially joining, TCU owes a $5 million exit fee, Del Conte said, though they will not have to wait the required 27 months before leaving. TCU was scheduled to join the Big East on July 1."

 

[JeepCSC]

Jeep, you are the only one saying that. No one else is claiming that the AAC left anything. The conference split

The conference collectively did not decide to split. The C7 decided to leave. Subsequently the conference met with the leavers and figured out a settlement. That cause-and-effect is important to note, because the first had to happen before we get to the second. The settlement reached meant the new conference could be called the Big East. To avoid confusion, it was known colloquially (including by the Villanova website that wrote about the new conference) the New Big East.

At some point apparently people began to take umbrage with the New/Old Big East terms. I didn’t realize that until this past few weeks. First the other poster cried foul about West Virginia being called an Old Big East team. Now you are absolutely going to the mattresses over this, tracing corporate history in a bid to absolve the C7 from culpability or something.

I don’t even think it’s a big deal what the C7 did. They realized the BE wasn’t what they truly wanted. They struck out on their own, built a new conference, bought the name, invited others, and now have a good thing going. If we could all agree on that, we could call it a day. But you seem wedded to this idea that there was no new conference, and if there was it was the AAC that was new. Have at it if you desire, but I (and logic) won’t endorse it.

 

[Zissou]

But you seem wedded to this idea that there was no new conference, and if there was it was the AAC that was new. Have at it if you desire, but I (and logic) won’t endorse it.

I agree with your points, mostly.

No argument about the new entity. It was technically a new conference, made necessary by the split, and brought with it key assets - branding, contracts, etc.

It is very analogous to the New GM, or New KFC, or New Jeep. Mostly the same people and teams doing the same business under the same names with continuity to the original entities. But, technically, new entities.

I’m not particularly bothered by “new”. At this point it’s not so new. Neither is the new GM.

I listen to my ACC friends lament over the new ACC. It’s too diluted…. Not as good as the old ACC which flamed more heated rivalries.

 

[CL82]

No argument about the new entity. It was
technically a new conference.

FIFY. The rest is just word salad.

I think it’s time to stop beating the horse. It’s pretty much fully decomposed.

 

[JeepCSC]

My dad used to complain about Georgia Tech in the ACC. And he just rolled his eyes at Florida State. I think in sports, our ideal conference is the one we knew at age 15.

 

[Viet Vet]

My dad used to complain about Georgia Tech in the ACC. And he just rolled his eyes at Florida State. I think in sports, our ideal conference is the one we knew at age 15.

The one that commenced as an athletic conference when I was 6 (1954) remains unchanged...........The Ivy League.

 

[CL82]

My dad used to complain about Georgia Tech in the ACC. And he just rolled his eyes at Florida State. I think in sports, our ideal conference is the one we knew at age 15.

And yet I don’t feel myself pining away for the Yankee Conference.

 

[Ha Who]

Hedge fund manager Dan Loeb buys a new stake in Disney and pushes for ESPN spinoff

In a letter to Disney CEO Bob Chapek, Loeb said there is a strong case that the ESPN business should be spun off.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Billy Jack]

what is also crystal clear is that the C7 left the big east conference to form their own basketball conference.

Oh, for Pete’s sake, there was no conference left for them to leave. All that was left was us, Cincy, and UCF with Louisville on its way out the door

 

[Billy Jack]

The conference collectively did not decide to split. The C7 decided to leave. Subsequently the conference met with the leavers and figured out a settlement. That cause-and-effect is important to note, because the first had to happen before we get to the second. The settlement reached meant the new conference could be called the Big East. To avoid confusion, it was known colloquially (including by the Villanova website that wrote about the new conference) the New Big East.

The collective decision to provide the mechanism for a split was not made in 2012-13. It was made a decade earlier. We’re you not alive then.

The defection of BC and Miami was a shock to the entire league. We filed a lawsuit about the “raid” and a number of other Big East members signed on. Everyone was forced to reevaluate their situation. In Virginia Tech’s case, it meant that they too defected to the ACC shortly afterwards.

There had already been tension within the league between basketball and football interests. It took 4 years for the non-football all-sports members to agree to let some of the football schools in as full members back in 1995 but only with the inclusion of Notre Dame as a non-football member. It took another 5 years before Virginia Tech to be granted full membership because the non-football schools had been concerned about the level of their basketball program guaranteeing that they would always be a football-first member.

All of this came to a head in 2003 when BC and Miami left. The way the football vs basketball tensions and the fear by the basketball schools that they would be an appendage to a football-centric conference was that 2 more non-football members - Marquette and DePaul - were added so that each wing of the conference would have sufficient membership to be a stand-alone conference in their own right. The football members had a vested interest in resolving these issues as well. They needed the non-football members to agree to add replacements for BC, Miami, and VA Tech. They also needed protection against non-football members having enough votes to prevent the conference from addressing football issues. They didn’t want to be in a conference where the basketball tail was wagging the dog.

The solution was the pre-nup agreement which provided the mechanism for either side to trigger a split if the demands of the other wing had become greater than they could tolerate. It could be triggered by either wing if they made the decision en masse; it was not just an out for the non-football members. In recognition of that, it was agreed that there would be no exit fees although 27 months notice was required - but later waived in 2013.

Of course there was not a collective decision to split in 2013. It always takes one party to initiate a divorce. But both sides had agreed a decade earlier to the pre-nup that allowed for the split. It was also agreed during the negotiations for the split to formally acknowledge in writing that the origin of both wings of the conference - both now separate and standing alone - was in 1979. In other words, formal recognition that each half was not a new conference but a continuation of the original Big East. Each wing agreed that there was a shared history and to share conference records of that history.

So, you are wrong when you state that there was a “new conference”. There was not and is not. That’s not my opinion. It’s in the official records. It was an agreement reached by all parties back in 2003 and honored by all parties in 2013.

 

[Billy Jack]

Oh, for Pete’s sake, there was no conference left for them to leave. All that was left was us, Cincy, and UCF with Louisville on its way out the door

Correction: I meant to say USF.

While I’m at it, let’s be clear about something, the C7 has the ability in 2013 to dissolve the conference if they wanted to. With Louisville having already given notice of withdrawal and therefore having lost its voting privileges and with Notre Dame doing the same in March, the C7 had the 2/3 votes needed to simply dissolve the conference. Cincy, USF, and UConn needed the the pre-nup to survive as much as the C7 needed it to continue as a conference.

 

[Pat125]

Correction: I meant to say USF.

While I’m at it, let’s be clear about something, the C7 has the ability in 2013 to dissolve the conference if they wanted to. With Louisville having already given notice of withdrawal and therefore having lost its voting privileges and with Notre Dame doing the same in March, the C7 had the 2/3 votes needed to simply dissolve the conference. Cincy, USF, and UConn needed the the pre-nup to survive as much as the C7 needed it to continue as a conference.

So in summary:

1. A conference called the Big East (OBE) formed in 1979. To clarify and avoid semantics crap. There were original members of the OBE, like UConn and St. John’s, and members of the OBE like UConn, St. John’s, WVa, and Virginia Tech.

2. A lot of stuff happened between 1979 and 2013. This includes identity, football vs. non-football, being gutted by the ACC, etc.

3. In 2013 seven schools, including original members of the OBE, decided to break away from the OBE and form a new conference, whose formation was approved by the NCAA as a new conference.

4. There were agreements regarding this breakaway. One was that the OBE agreed to let the new conference to be called the Big East (NBE). The OBE then became known as the American Athletic Conference (AAC). Both conferences were allowed to maintain the records of the OBE.

5. The C7 maybe could have done things differently, so that they would be regarded as the legal successor of the OBE, but didn’t.

6. UConn eventually decided to leave the OBE, then and now known as the AAC, and join this new conference then and now known by as the Big East (NBE). In order to do so, they had to go through the normal processes of leaving a conference and joining a new one.

7. People are free to believe that the NBE is really the continuation of the OBE, just as people are allowed to call margarine butter, if they really believe the margarine tastes more buttery than butter.

 

[Billy Jack]

Your summary is nonsense. You’re ignoring the fact that the C7 “broke away” from 3 schools - us, Cincy, and USF. Three schools is not a conference and never was. This idea is laughable. Those 3 added 5 more to preserve their bowl bid. If anyone formed a conference, it was this group which had not been affiliated before.

There was no “OBE” without the C7 agreeing to recognize the 3 schools as a continuation of the old conference, without allowing them to continue via expansion as provided for in the 2003 agreement, and without them agreeing not to dissolve the conference as they could have.

 

[JeepCSC]

The C7 had to start a new conference because they wanted a new tv contract. As conferences are now simply an extension of the tv contract, that’s probably the most compelling reason to believe the C7 left the old Big East. Besides the pesky fact that the C7 did leave the old Big East.

“The decision has been made. The Big East Conference's basketball-only schools - St. John's, Seton Hall, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Villanova - have decided to leave the league”

The end: St. John's, Seton Hall to leave Big East

The Big East Conference basketball-only schools decided Thursday it will leave the league. The seven schools, which include St. John's and Seton Hall, will now need to possibly find a new home and rebuild a basketball league for scratch.

newyork.sbnation.com

 

[Billy Jack]

The C7 had to start a new conference because they wanted a new tv contract. As conferences are now simply an extension of the tv contract, that’s probably the most compelling reason to believe the C7 left the old Big East. Besides the pesky fact that the C7 did leave the old Big East.

“The decision has been made. The Big East Conference's basketball-only schools - St. John's, Seton Hall, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, DePaul and Villanova - have decided to leave the league”

The end: St. John's, Seton Hall to leave Big East

The Big East Conference basketball-only schools decided Thursday it will leave the league. The seven schools, which include St. John's and Seton Hall, will now need to possibly find a new home and rebuild a basketball league for scratch.

newyork.sbnation.com

Yes, they split the old league into two. The real issue is how they did it because the simplest way would have been to dissolve the old league if all they wanted to do was leave and end it. They had the votes to do that. So, why didn’t they?

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Oh, for Pete’s sake, there was no conference left for them to leave. All that was left was us, Cincy, and UCF with Louisville on its way out the door

To answer both questions C7 goal was to destroy the old Big East . Divide the the substantial money in the treasury than reform with their new. Strictly basketball and their Fox contract
Leaving schools like UConn , Cinncy, and USF homeless. . We weren’t invited for two reasons we had a viable football program and we were a public.
A clause in the contract stipulated that a minimum of three schools could reject dissolution.
UConn probably would have been in Conference USA had their plan worked
If they stayed and guided the president they hired away from his grandiose plans
You could have still had the old Big East
which could have includec
The 10 teams of the old league
Plus
Temple
UCF
Memphis
Navy
Army
Houston
SMU
That’s as good a BB conference then they have and a nice little FB conference

 

[dayooper]

Yes, they split the old league into two. The real issue is how they did it because the simplest way would have been to dissolve the old league if all they wanted to do was leave and end it. They had the votes to do that. So, why didn’t they?

First of all, why is this still going on? What does it matter if the C7 left the league or not? It has no bearing on anything anymore.

With that being said (I can’t believe I’m engaging in this), unless you were privy to the negotiations that took place between the schools, then we really don’t have a clue why or why not the C7 didn’t dissolve the conference. Since there are those that are playing the connect the dots game, here are a handful of reasons why the C7 just didn’t dissolve the league:

1. They wanted leave the football schools on amicable terms.

2. They wanted the Big East name and knew they might have a legal battle to use the name if they were dissolve the league and still use the name. By leaving amicably, they were able to negotiate the rights to The Big East name.

3. They didn’t want to leave the other schools in a bind.

4. They wanted rights to the league history and records. By leaving amicably, they avoided a legal battle over that name.

5. There are tournament credits and media rights to think of. By negotiating a leave, they were able to avoid a big legal fight for those monies.

6. Maybe they just got their kicks on a Saturday night not dissolving their league and finding the best solution for everyone.

The people running these schools are smart and understand how the business of college sports works. By just dissolving the league, they would have been locked up in very long and expensive legal battles that wouldn’t look good from the outside.

Edit - The post above says that 3 schools could stop the dissolution of the conference. If true, then they had no choice to negotiate.

 

[Billy Jack]

To answer both questions C7 goal was to destroy the old Big East . Divide the the substantial money in the treasury than reform with their new. Strictly basketball and their Fox contract
Leaving schools like UConn , Cinncy, and USF homeless. . We weren’t invited for two reasons we had a viable football program and we were a public.
A clause in the contract stipulated that a minimum of three schools could reject dissolution.
UConn probably would have been in Conference USA had their plan worked
If they stayed and guided the president they hired away from his grandiose plans
You could have still had the old Big East
which could have includec
The 10 teams of the old league
Plus
Temple
UCF
Memphis
Navy
Army
Houston
SMU
That’s as good a BB conference then they have and a nice little FB conference

Where did you come up with this crazy idea?

By the time that the C7 left, the Big East had already accepted:

Houston
SMU
UCF
Temple
Navy
Memphis
Tulane

No one was being left on an homeless. The C7 became increasingly uncomfortable with the direction that basketball was taking. Tulane was the last straw.

 

[Billy Jack]

There was no provision for 3 members to stop dissolution. That claim did not exist in the by-laws.

 

[Zissou]

Tulane was the last straw.

This is a fact. When the football teams had to reach to Tulane to fill out the schedule, it was just too far of a reach for the C7.

 

[pepband99]

This is a fact. When the football teams had to reach to Tulane to fill out the schedule, it was just too far of a reach for the C7.

Cool - can we stop talking about this now?

 

[Zissou]

To answer both questions C7 goal was to destroy the old Big East . Divide the the substantial money in the treasury than reform with their new. Strictly basketball and their Fox contract
Leaving schools like UConn , Cinncy, and USF homeless. . We weren’t invited for two reasons we had a viable football program and we were a public.

This one is off base. By all accounts, the split was amicable. UConn could have went with the Big East and sought a new home for football. Choosing to go with the AAC was not a bad decision. It kept cash and gave the AAC a chance to negotiate a great contract. It didn’t work out. UConn got the cash, and eventually went back to the Big East, so not bad in the end.

 

[Hoophound]

This one is off base. By all accounts, the split was amicable. UConn could have went with the Big East and sought a new home for football. Choosing to go with the AAC was not a bad decision. It kept cash and gave the AAC a chance to negotiate a great contract. It didn’t work out. UConn got the cash, and eventually went back to the Big East, so not bad in the end.

I know the money was the motivator, but I wish we never participated in the American and went independent in football. I hated the American. It took away my joy for several years that I can’t get back.

 

[Ha Who]

Cool - can we stop talking about this now?

At least it is not in key tweets thread

 

[HitDog]

I know the money was the motivator, but I wish we never participated in the American and went independent in football. I hated the American. It took away my joy for several years that I can’t get back.

Was it the American or we were just mediocre in basketball and couldn’t compete in football?