Big East, C7, AAC, NBE Split/Restructuring Re-Visited (Yada, yada, yada...)

[TheDrifter75]

It was a divorce, as stated, the union was dissolved. All parties started over. Some kept the old name. They used pieces, MSG, of the old union to gain legitimacy, also stated, in the new venture. I mean, why would you need legitimacy if you're the original that's been doing it for 20 plus years?

 

[ScottVib]

When you are 7 schools leaving 3 existing members (UConn, USF and Cincy) and forfeit 91% of the cash reserves of an entity... you're paying something

 

[Billy Jack]

When you are 7 schools leaving 3 existing members (UConn, USF and Cincy) and forfeit 91% of the cash reserves of an entity... you're paying something

You’re still stuck on the $100 mill as the only thing that mattered, ignoring the $35 mill in fees that they kept and ignoring the Big East name and the MSG tournament, both of which had tremendous value. It’s like a divorce in which one party gets cash but the other gets cash, an investment portfolio, the mansion on 10 acres, and the Rolls. And then the one with the cash thinks he got it all.

 

[JeepCSC]

I’m not even sure what investment portfolios and divorces have anything to do with what went on. The Catholic 7 voted to leave the Big East. A new conference was set up. That’s the gist of old BE and new BE, and it’s understood by everyone.

The Big XII raided the old Big East for West Virginia. It is known.

 

[businesslawyer]

How much did the C7 pay for the name that they “bought”.

Just to understand what you’re saying, you’r contending that the Big East name belonged to schools like Cincinnati and South Florida but not to schools lie the C7, five of whom were founding members and along with us, BC, and SU, paid for the creation of the name in the first place. And the iteration with exists today, whose core is 6 of the 8 founding members is some new entity which bought its name and is not a continuation of the “old iteration”?

And the “original Big East” was an entity that didn’t even exist until 1995? What was the entity which called itself The Big East for 16 years before “the original Big East” came into existence?

I’m really trying to follow the logic here. We have 6 members who have been playing under the Big East banner continuously for for 43 years with the exception of our relatively brief hiatus (2013-20), but thus group is the “new Big East? And somehow a group of school which came and went over the years, sometimes as associate or football-only members are actually the “original Big East”?

I think I’ve got it now.

You can be as confused as you want, but facts are facts and the facts here are easy and clear. There was a Big East conference that was a non-profit corporation. When the Catholic five left it after the defection of too many football schools, the new corporation that the Catholic schools founded in 2013 or so bought the Big East name from the Big East conference, which changed its name to the American.

A corporation doesn’t lose it’s identity when a majority of founding shareholders leave. It has its own existence. The American is in fact the corporation that was founded as the Big East Conference in the 1980s. The conference now carrying the Big East name was founded with another name in 2012 or so and then bought the Big East name.

 

[businesslawyer]

You’re still stuck on the $100 mill as the only thing that mattered, ignoring the $35 mill in fees that they kept and ignoring the Big East name and the MSG tournament, both of which had tremendous value. It’s like a divorce in which one party gets cash but the other gets cash, an investment portfolio, the mansion on 10 acres, and the Rolls. And then the one with the cash thinks he got it all.

No, you’re stuck on how you think words and the law should work instead of the reality of the situation.

 

[Zissou]

There is a practical result and there are the technicalities of the bridge from the old Big East to the new Big East.

The Big East continued with larger share of its original members, its name, and the MSG contract.

It technically formed a new entity and transferred the name and the MSG contract, but that was just a mechanism.

I think the divorce analogy is a good one. The new Big East kept more of the value of assets (Name and MSG Contract), agreed to leave more cash with the AAC, and both sides agreed to the split with no further exit fees (which was a valued concession).

The Big East and the AAC formally agreed to share the records and the history of the original Big East.

The AAC contains no members of the Big East from its early years. The Big East has Georgetown, St John’s, UConn, Providence, Seton Hall, and Nova.

 

[JeepCSC]

There is a practical result and there are the technicalities of the bridge from the old Big East to the new Big East.

The Big East continued with larger share of its original members, its name, and the MSG contract.

It technically formed a new entity and transferred the name and the MSG contract, but that was just a mechanism.

I think the divorce analogy is a good one. The new Big East kept more of the value of assets (Name and MSG Contract), agreed to leave more cash with the AAC, and both sides agreed to the split with no further exit fees (which was a valued concession).

The Big East and the AAC formally agreed to share the records and the history of the original Big East.

The AAC contains no members of the Big East from its early years. The Big East has Georgetown, St John’s, UConn, Providence, Seton Hall, and Nova.

Even if you agree with all that, West Virginia was poached before the divorce. It was a member of the original Big East.

 

[Zissou]

Even if you agree with all that, West Virginia was poached before the divorce. It was a member of the original Big East.

WVU was a 90s add. Not one of the first 9 from the 80s, and never a real fit to the conference. They did fill out the football schedule when that was important.

 

[JeepCSC]

WVU was a 90s add. Not one of the first 9 from the 80s, and never a real fit to the conference. They did fill out the football schedule when that was important.

So a member of the original BE, got it.

 

[Billy Jack]

Some peopl seem to be having difficulty with the meaning of th word “original”, which derives from the word origins, or beginnings. For example, when we talk about the origins of the United States, we don’t include Alaska. We talk about “the original 13 colonies”. Even though the nation expanded to eventually include 37 other states, they are not considered as part of the original colonies.

The original Big East had 8 members, one of whom delayed beginning competition for a year due to obligations to another conference. If we want to expand a little bit to the “beginnings” of the conference, we could include Pitt because they began competition 3 years after the conference began.

That was the original Big East. It had no football, and didn’t begin competition in football until 12 years later. For the first 4 years of Big East Football, half of its football teams were associate members of the conference for football only. Two of those joined as full members of the Big East 4 years later. A third was invited to join the conference as a full member 5 years after that.

If there’s any doubt about whether the current Big East is some new entity, we can simply refer to the separation agreement at the time the C7 initiated the split from the football side of the conference in 2012-13. As part of that agreement it was resolved that 1979 would be recognized as the official starting date of both of the 2 now separate conferences which emerged out of this split. That’s the official record, which confirms the notion of a split, or a separation, of the 2 halves of the Big East. So, the current conference didn’t begin in 2013; it officially began in 1979.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Some people are having difficulty accepting the fact that a new legal entity, using a name that they negotiated the rights to, is no longer the former legal entity.

There was a professional baseball team in the 1800's named the New York Metropolitans. The team that now plays in Queens has the same name but they are not the former professional team. Conversely, the MLB team that is now called the Guardians is the same professional team that has been playing in Cleveland for more than a dozen decades.

Look up the NCAA's record keeping. According to that the conference that began in 1979 as the Big East is currently in existence as the AAC.

 

[Ha Who]

seems like one out of every 40 posts is a tweet. Time to put this thread to bed mods

 

[Hogoff]

Some peopl seem to be having difficulty with the meaning of th word “original”, which derives from the word origins, or beginnings. For example, when we talk about the origins of the United States, we don’t include Alaska. We talk about “the original 13 colonies”. Even though the nation expanded to eventually include 37 other states, they are not considered as part of the original colonies.

The original Big East had 8 members, one of whom delayed beginning competition for a year due to obligations to another conference. If we want to expand a little bit to the “beginnings” of the conference, we could include Pitt because they began competition 3 years after the conference began.

That was the original Big East. It had no football, and didn’t begin competition in football until 12 years later. For the first 4 years of Big East Football, half of its football teams were associate members of the conference for football only. Two of those joined as full members of the Big East 4 years later. A third was invited to join the conference as a full member 5 years after that.

If there’s any doubt about whether the current Big East is some new entity, we can simply refer to the separation agreement at the time the C7 initiated the split from the football side of the conference in 2012-13. As part of that agreement it was resolved that 1979 would be recognized as the official starting date of both of the 2 now separate conferences which emerged out of this split. That’s the official record, which confirms the notion of a split, or a separation, of the 2 halves of the Big East. So, the current conference didn’t begin in 2013; it officially began in 1979.

The “original Big East” had 8 original members. The “new Big East” had 7 original members. West Virginia was part of the original Big East. They however were not an original member of the Big East.

 

[huskymedic]

Some peopl seem to be having difficulty with the meaning of th word “original”, which derives from the word origins, or beginnings.

Dude… let it go and move on.

 

[huskymedic]

seems like one out of every 40 posts is a tweet. Time to put this thread to bed mods

The thread will survive - It’s easier to put someone else to bed…

 

[JeepCSC]

The “original Big East” had 8 original members. The “new Big East” had 7 original members. West Virginia was part of the original Big East. They however were not an original member of the Big East.

This is right. The “original BE” is not the same as “original members of the original BE”. The “new BE” is not the same as new members of the either iteration of the BE.

There was a conference called the Big East from 1979-2013, it had fluctuating membership. Some were original members like Georgetown and Providence, some were not original members like Pittsburgh and West Virginia. All were members of the original BE. In 2013, a new conference was formed with 10 members, only 4 of which were actually original members of the original BE. It has been deemed the New Big East.

That’s the story, that’s all. Everything else is just a shell game.

 

[Ha Who]

The thread will survive - It’s easier to put someone else to bed…

Maybe it can be renamed same old newbie vs old BE argument

 

[Kolumbo]

Some peopl seem to be having difficulty with the meaning of th word “original”, which derives from the word origins, or beginnings. For example, when we talk about the origins of the United States, we don’t include Alaska. We talk about “the original 13 colonies”. Even though the nation expanded to eventually include 37 other states, they are not considered as part of the original colonies.

The original Big East had 8 members, one of whom delayed beginning competition for a year due to obligations to another conference. If we want to expand a little bit to the “beginnings” of the conference, we could include Pitt because they began competition 3 years after the conference began.

That was the original Big East. It had no football, and didn’t begin competition in football until 12 years later. For the first 4 years of Big East Football, half of its football teams were associate members of the conference for football only. Two of those joined as full members of the Big East 4 years later. A third was invited to join the conference as a full member 5 years after that.

If there’s any doubt about whether the current Big East is some new entity, we can simply refer to the separation agreement at the time the C7 initiated the split from the football side of the conference in 2012-13. As part of that agreement it was resolved that 1979 would be recognized as the official starting date of both of the 2 now separate conferences which emerged out of this split. That’s the official record, which confirms the notion of a split, or a separation, of the 2 halves of the Big East. So, the current conference didn’t begin in 2013; it officially began in 1979.

I'm starting to partially agree with the split rather than the C7 leaving, but according to wikipedia, the C7 left the conference. The best part of the wikipedia post is the fact that it line 1.4 was created:

 

[Zissou]

There was a conference called the Big East from 1979-2013, it had fluctuating membership. Some were original members like Georgetown and Providence, some were not original members like Pittsburgh and West Virginia. All were members of the original BE. In 2013, a new conference was formed with 10 members, only 4 of which were actually original members of the original BE. It has been deemed the New Big East.

There was a company called General Motors founded in 1908. In 2008, there was a bankruptcy and the founding of a new entity also called General Motors in 2009. Assets from the old GM were transferred to the new GM.

The new GM is 13 years old. It claims heritage to 1908. Not many are too caught up on the details of the legal entity, except of course the shareholders and pensioners that lost in the bankruptcy. Most consider it General Motors, with its full history.

 

[Hogoff]

Hopefully there will be a new thread about key tweets and it will be a thread about key tweets. It won’t be the original key tweet thread, it will be a new key tweet thread. The original key tweet thread will be dead. But, we will all know the origins is different then the new.

 

[goldendomer]

Hopefully there will be a new thread about key tweets and it will be a thread about key tweets. It won’t be the original key tweet thread, it will be a new key tweet thread. The original key tweet thread will be dead. But, we will all know the origins is different then the new.

First rule of the new key tweet thread is not to talk about the new key tweet thread. It will keep the old key tweet thread debates from knowing about the new key tweet thread.

 

[Billy Jack]

I'm starting to partially agree with the split rather than the C7 leaving, but according to wikipedia, the C7 left the conference. The best part of the wikipedia post is the fact that it line 1.4 was created:

View attachment 78093

Wikipedia doesn’t always get everything right.

 

[Hogoff]

Wikipedia doesn’t always get everything right.

Usually the boneyard does.

 

[JeepCSC]

There was a company called General Motors founded in 1908. In 2008, there was a bankruptcy and the founding of a new entity also called General Motors in 2009. Assets from the old GM were transferred to the new GM.

The new GM is 13 years old. It claims heritage to 1908. Not many are too caught up on the details of the legal entity, except of course the shareholders and pensioners that lost in the bankruptcy. Most consider it General Motors, with its full history.

The fly in the ointment is that the old BE stayed afloat. There was no reincorporation by the old BE, it didn’t cease to exist. The commissioner of the old BE didn’t have to reapply for a job. He kept his own.

 

[Kolumbo]

The fly in the ointment is that the old BE stayed afloat. There was no reincorporation by the old BE, it didn’t cease to exist. The commissioner of the old BE didn’t have to reapply for a job. He kept his own.

In fact, the Big East/AAC HQ staff remained in Providence until 2020 when it relocated to Irving, TX.

 

[Billy Jack]

This is right. The “original BE” is not the same as “original members of the original BE”. The “new BE” is not the same as new members of the either iteration of the BE.

There was a conference called the Big East from 1979-2013, it had fluctuating membership. Some were original members like Georgetown and Providence, some were not original members like Pittsburgh and West Virginia. All were members of the original BE. In 2013, a new conference was formed with 10 members, only 4 of which were actually original members of the original BE. It has been deemed the New Big East.

That’s the story, that’s all. Everything else is just a shell game.

So, anyone who doesn’t agree with your version is just playing a shell game? Interesting.

Here are the facts:

1. There is a conference called The Big East which has existed from 1979 to the present. Both the AAC and The Bug East agree on that point and they formally recognized it by putting it in writing.

2. The Big East had a consistent core group of members, which remain the core of the conference to this day.

3. Football membership fluctuated. The non-football core remained stable. The conference developed 2 wings.

4. After BC and Miami announced that they were leaving in 2003, it was anticipated that continuing instability due to football and the hybrid nature of the conference could eventually destroy the conference. Precisely to prevent this all sides agreed to a process by which the non-football members could be protected and could remain whole as a conference. This process, which was agreed to in writing, allowed a group to initiate a split only under circumstances in which they separated from the other wing en masse as a group. With 27 months notice, this process could be triggered without any financial penalties.

5. Anyone who lived through the creation of the Big East knows that Villanova was part of the founding group but was delayed in their ability to begin competition right away by their commitment to the Eastern 8. The fact that they gave notice to the Eastern 8 when they did confirms this fact. So, to claim that only 4 of the Big East break away group in 2013 were actually original members is based on a technicality which ignores what was going on in the real world.

6. More of a shell game is being played here when claiming that only 4 of 10 were original members of the Big East. The break away group was the C7, not 10. And 5 of the 7 were original members. The 7 then expanded to 10 by adding 3 more. But it was the group of 7 who established the Big East identity with their announcement in December, 2012.

7. “It has been deemed the New Big East”. No it hasn’t. The conference’s name is simply the Big East. The “new” reference at the time was for anyone who hadn’t kept up with fast moving developments and didn’t realize that UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, and the rest could no longer be found under that label. But, please, it’s been a decade. Everyone knows who the Bug East is and doesn’t need the “new” when the news is old. Give it a rest.

 

[freescooter]

So, anyone who doesn’t agree with your version is just playing a shell game? Interesting.

Here are the facts:

1. There is a conference called The Big East which has existed from 1979 to the present. Both the AAC and The Bug East agree on that point and they formally recognized it by putting it in writing.

2. The Big East had a consistent core group of members, which remain the core of the conference to this day.

3. Football membership fluctuated. The non-football core remained stable. The conference developed 2 wings.

4. After BC and Miami announced that they were leaving in 2003, it was anticipated that continuing instability due to football and the hybrid nature of the conference could eventually destroy the conference. Precisely to prevent this all sides agreed to a process by which the non-football members could be protected and could remain whole as a conference. This process, which was agreed to in writing, allowed a group to initiate a split only under circumstances in which they separated from the other wing en masse as a group. With 27 months notice, this process could be triggered without any financial penalties.

5. Anyone who lived through the creation of the Big East knows that Villanova was part of the founding group but was delayed in their ability to begin competition right away by their commitment to the Eastern 8. The fact that they gave notice to the Eastern 8 when they did confirms this fact. So, to claim that only 4 of the Big East break away group in 2013 were actually original members is based on a technicality which ignores what was going on in the real world.

6. More of a shell game is being played here when claiming that only 4 of 10 were original members of the Big East. The break away group was the C7, not 10. And 5 of the 7 were original members. The 7 then expanded to 10 by adding 3 more. But it was the group of 7 who established the Big East identity with their announcement in December, 2012.

7. “It has been deemed the New Big East”. No it hasn’t. The conference’s name is simply the Big East. The “new” reference at the time was for anyone who hadn’t kept up with fast moving developments and didn’t realize that UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, and the rest could no longer be found under that label. But, please, it’s been a decade. Everyone knows who the Bug East is and doesn’t need the “new” when the news is old. Give it a rest.

The New Big East is used to differentiate the current mass of mediocrity from the Big East, or the Real Big East if you prefer. You do know that between 1999 and the final collapse of the Real Big East, had multiple teams who won NCAA championships (UConn 3, Syracuse 1 and Louisville 2) , had multiple Final Four Teams 3 times and sent 6 different teams(UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, West Virginia, Georgetown and Villanova) to the Final 4. The New Big East has had only 1 team, Villanova, that has made a Final 4. That one team has won 2 titles. So I guess Villanova and the 11 dwarfs is an option for a nickname. UConn’s 4th title came as a member of the AAC. And it was 8 years ago. Might as well be Kentucky, though at least they have been to some Final Fours. So the current group of meh teams will be the New Big East to me until they earn a new name.

 

[SubbaBub]

There is a practical result and there are the technicalities of the bridge from the old Big East to the new Big East.

The Big East continued with larger share of its original members, its name, and the MSG contract.

It technically formed a new entity and transferred the name and the MSG contract, but that was just a mechanism.

I think the divorce analogy is a good one. The new Big East kept more of the value of assets (Name and MSG Contract), agreed to leave more cash with the AAC, and both sides agreed to the split with no further exit fees (which was a valued concession).

The Big East and the AAC formally agreed to share the records and the history of the original Big East.

The AAC contains no members of the Big East from its early years. The Big East has Georgetown, St John’s, UConn, Providence, Seton Hall, and Nova.

To.believe your mistaken POV, would mean that the C7 booted UConn and thr other FB members. Which is decidedly not what happened. Your exercise in semantics is just wrongheaded.

In fact, at the time, this kind of thinking was the main argument against selling the Big East name, but in order to entice new FB members the remaining schools needed money. Money which was owed to the seditious 7. A settlement afterwards doesn't change the facts. They left.

 

[businesslawyer]

To.believe your mistaken POV, would mean that the C7 booted UConn and thr other FB members. Which is decidedly not what happened. Your exercise in semantics is just wrongheaded.

In fact, at the time, this kind of thinking was the main argument against selling the Big East name, but in order to entice new FB members the remaining schools needed money. Money which was owed to the seditious 7. A settlement afterwards doesn't change the facts. They left.

You know how he knows he’s wrong? He uses the word “technically” as if it modifies the description of what actually happened that follows.