Big East basketball on FoxSports

[upstater]

I agree with everything you said, I'm just disagreeing with the person who is claiming that UCONN should have jumped ship with the C7 and gone independent in football or abandoned football and hopes for a conference upgrade all together. That person is wrong. I also think that going forward the AAC will be on par or better than the Big East with UCONN, Cincy, Memphis, Temple, and the improving Texas and Florida schools. Even East Carolina is improving their basketball stock. I also think that being on ESPN is a huge advantage over Fox.

It is really hard to believe the new BE is in a better position than the old, given the exposure of the channel, given the quality of the teams, and I'm sure the old could have scored more for bball on Fox as well.

There's a reason this conference never flipped from ESPN until it broke up. Even with the small contract ESPN gave the schools back then.

 

[Husky25]

Nelson is measuring the best possible scenario for the New Big East vs. the worst possible scenario for the AAC, and UConn in particular. Why don't you measure compare what is likely to happen for both conferences? Without FBS football, the Big East becomes comparable to the Atlantic 10 at best, the same conference whose conference semifinal tournament games were not even televised in the region where one of the participants resides (Western Massachusetts). The AAC has a leg up if only due to the athletic budgets that FBS football affords it.

Georgetown is the only national athletic name in the conference and that is only because of its history going on 30 years ago. Yes they got to a final 4 recently...if you count 7 years ago as recent. Who else was in that Final 4? Do you know off the top of your head without looking it up? Unless you have an Eidetic memory, my guess is no. besides that, it's not about Final 4s. Its about cutting the final nets down in April. I've said it before and here it is again: No school whose conference does not sponsor FBS college football has won the NCAA Basketball Tournament since 1985 and no school whose school does not sponsor FBS college football has won the NCAA Basketball Tournament since 1999. Its been a over a decade since Marquette went to the Final 4 and that was only because of Dwayne Wade. Butler lost their wunderkind head coach so who knows what their future holds. Creighton hasn't made it past the first weekend since 1974 and that leaves Xavier. They are looking up, but they were probably better off staying in the Missouri Valley Conference. They will have to win the Big East or at least come in second in the standings to even have a shot at the Tournament. The rest of the conference is fodder.

Yes, the TV money for the AAC is an ESPN rounding error, but they are on ESPN. UConn also has exit fee money in the short term. They are also working to improve all parts of the University that matter (Football, academic affiliations, fund raising, etc.). Chances are they will not be in the AAC much longer. The Big East schools chose to break away and are content with being what they are. TV Exposure is not really exposure unless people actually care. Not enough people care about the New Big East, IMO.

 

[Husky25]

Yes, they absolutely did.

I cannot speak for how the administrations of the schools involved felt but the lion's share of most of the fan bases were convinced (when this started going down) that we (UConn) would come to our senses, drop football and join them (and be the anchor that conference needed for hoops). What I find disappointing is the number of UConn fans who held the same opinion.

Good thing that UConn never lost their head and did not drop back to FCS football and go with them. UConn has too much invested in football and, these past 22 months aside, will no doubt improves their position. The doubters focus on the "Coach" Pasqualoni Era and think UConn is throwing good money after bad. What they don't do is look at other metrics. Namely, how many other 0-3 win programs have the attendance that UConn does? How many teams who are better than UConn and in a better position have worse attendance (**cough** Duke **cough**)? A new coach is the start of turning around this program. There is no doubt in my mind. As a result, I have already committed funds from my personal budget for the 2014 football season.

 

[WestHartHusk]

Good thing that UConn never lost their head and did not drop back to FCS football and go with them. UConn has too much invested in football and, these past 22 months aside, will no doubt improves their position. The doubters focus on the "Coach" Pasqualoni Era and think UConn is throwing good money after bad. What they don't do is look at other metrics. Namely, how many other 0-3 win programs have the attendance that UConn does? How many teams who are better than UConn and in a better position have worse attendance ( *cough* Duke *cough* )? A new coach is the start of turning around this program. There is no doubt in my mind. As a result, I have already committed funds from my personal budget for the 2014 football season.

Same here. In fact, my excitement for the 2014 season will begin during this bowl season, after UConn has made a big splash hire and in the weeks leading up to (insert major bowl name here) every pundit as to reiterate (insert name here) has accepted the head coaching position as UConn and will be flying to Storrs after the game to begin recruiting and assembling his staff.

 

[frankthetank]

The New Big East being better off on Fox and the AAC being better off on ESPN can both be true. The New Big East schools had to separate at a certain point - they are now in a position where they are the predators in their universe (the non-FBS Division I world) as opposed to the prey in a football universe where they didn't even play that sport (which the Old Big East was) when it comes to conference realignment. There is additional value in stability, particularly when you know that you'll never be in one of the power football leagues. The Big East wasn't ever going to be a football conference, so whether the future of the college sports world splits along football/basketball lines is immaterial to them - they had to make the best basketball-focused move. At the same time, Nelson (who I rarely agree with) is correct that the NCAA Tournament is a much stronger force keeping the different tiers of Division I basketball together compared to how the Power 5 conferences legitimately would love to fully separate from the non-power leagues if at all possible. The fact that Fox is paying more TV money for just Big East basketball compared to the AAC with both football and basketball made it a complete no-brainer for those schools.

Please also note that Fox is still in a good position to become a viable competitor to ESPN (particularly compared to others like NBCSN). Remember that Major League Baseball games are heading to FS1 (including most of national game of the week package that had been on over-the-air Fox and several playoff games) along with USGA events (most importantly, the US Open), FIFA events (i.e. men's and women's World Cup) and NASCAR (not my thing, but a good number of people watch it) on top of the Big 12, Pac-12 and Champions League that they already have. We're seeing the early days of FS1 and FS2 where they have sporadic live programming (so the ratings reflect that and further depresses the ability to cross-promote the schedule), but the scale is going to look significantly different a year from now. FS1 may never end up being as popular as ESPN (in fact, I'd count on that), but that's a legit sports lineup for legit sports network for the long-term with events that draw in the casual sports fans that ESPN is so good at doing. (In contrast, NBCSN seems to be concentrating on the upscale yuppie and hipster sports fan demo with the NHL and Premier League, which I personally enjoy, but don't nearly have the casual sports fan appeal as what FS1 already has.)

Meanwhile, the AAC is still getting exposure on the ESPN platforms. There's no way that the AAC should have gone to NBCSN when ESPN was paying the same price. Taking a chance on an upstart network like FS1 or NBCSN is fine when they're providing a Godfather offer in the way Fox was doing for the Big East, but ESPN is still preferable when all things are equal. So, the AAC will still get good exposure, although Mike Aresco has a bad habit of overselling a lot of things publicly (so I wouldn't exactly trust a lot of the specific numbers that come out of the AAC PR office).

If I were running UConn, I'd still think that being a full member in the AAC is better than being a football independent/Big East basketball member simply because UConn is one of the small handful of schools that could conceivably cash in on a power conference lottery ticket. Independence is a tough road, as well. The one thing that all of the existing independents have in common is that they are legitimately uniquely national schools whose fan bases and identities have nothing to do with their respective markets or regions: Notre Dame = Catholics, Army (and Navy, for now) = military, BYU = Mormons. Independence simply isn't realistic unless you're that type of school (and not even powerhouses like Texas, Ohio State and Florida are that type of school - they might have huge fan bases, but they are still generally tied to their populous regions as opposed to being truly national).

Now, one option is to maybe join the MAC for football-only with a couple of others (i.e. Memphis, Temple) and then join the Big East for basketball and everything else along with them. I personally wouldn't pull the trigger on that move if I were running the UConn athletic department (because as fun as MACtion might be on TV, that's truly a peanuts TV contract), but that's really the only way that I'd say being a Big East basketball member could conceivably work for UConn.

 

[upstater]

by the time FS1 develops anything resembling legit competition to ESPN, all these questions about mid-major versus majors, strength of competition, teams, will have been decided. No one really knows. But the initial sampling is not promising. If Marquette falls out of the top 25, where is the interest?

 

[Husky25]

Now, one option is to maybe join the MAC for football-only with a couple of others (i.e. Memphis, Temple) and then join the Big East for basketball and everything else along with them. I personally wouldn't pull the trigger on that move if I were running the UConn athletic department (because as fun as MACtion might be on TV, that's truly a peanuts TV contract), but that's really the only way that I'd say being a Big East basketball member could conceivably work for UConn.

I know you are just throwing out ideas, but I truly believe anything conversation that begins with MAC is a non-starter for UConn. Splitting up their athletics over two conferences rather than be a member of a conference able to support both revenue generating sports decreases their split of conference dollars as a whole. At the very best, it puts the total amount of dollars in flux.

UConn is no longer a member of the Big East and that's fine. It was in the Catholic 7's best interest to split from the football teams, and that is also fine. However, I have a hard time (nay, impossible) believing that it's only a matter of time before the Big East leaps over the AAC in terms of prestige, money, and exposure.

 

[upstater]

, I have a hard time (nay, impossible) believing that it's only a matter of time before the Big East leaps over the AAC in terms of prestige, money, and exposure.

Well, it is already ahead on money, prestige depends on what teams you are looking at (G'town, Villanova and Marquette have it over all teams not named Memphis, Cincy or UConn). But exposure is definitely less for the BE without a doubt.

 

[Husky25]

Well, it is already ahead on money, prestige depends on what teams you are looking at (G'town, Villanova and Marquette have it over all teams not named Memphis, Cincy or UConn). But exposure is definitely less for the BE without a doubt.

I'm not necessarily talking about only TV money. The Big East gets no revenue from going to FBS bowl games and there will probably be more AAC schools in the NCAA Tournament on a regular basis going forward as well, as the Big East fulfills its destiny of mid-majordom.

 

[upstater]

I'm not necessarily talking about only TV money. The Big East gets no revenue from going to FBS bowl games and there will probably be more AAC schools in the NCAA Tournament on a regular basis going forward as well, as the Big East fulfills its destiny of mid-majordom.

The bowl money after this year will barely pay for the traveling team's costs. It will dry up. I don't think the AAC is going to see any revenue unless it lands a team in the top 4.

 

[frankthetank]

by the time FS1 develops anything resembling legit competition to ESPN, all these questions about mid-major versus majors, strength of competition, teams, will have been decided. No one really knows. But the initial sampling is not promising. If Marquette falls out of the top 25, where is the interest?

If the argument is that the Big East is going to be down this particular season and that will depress interest, then I agree with you. However, it's a little bit of wishful thinking that brands like Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's are going to suddenly disappear and will be deemed to be midmajors long-term. I've seen a lot of snarky remarks about Creighton on this thread, yet they've been selling out 17,000 seats per game with a Missouri Valley Conference schedule. You can count 5 schools in America that have better attendance than Creighton: Kentucky, Louisville, Syracuse, UNC and Indiana. Once again, that's with a Missouri Valley Conference schedule (and, to boot, it's in the most college football-focused market that you could possibly get: the state of Nebraska). Marquette also sells over 16,000 seats per game and is in the top 10 of basketball attendance every year. Can anyone in the AAC (including UConn) say the same? Heck, the vast majority of schools in the Big Ten and ACC can't say the same. Plus, the Big East is still going to be playing its conference tournament at Madison Square Garden. It's still going to have tradition-rich schools that are located directly in several of the nation's top TV markets and recruiting areas.

So, let's not overstate things. While the New Big East is in no way, shape or form as good as the Old Big East for basketball, the new league also isn't within the vicinity of being a midmajor. There are going to be years where the AAC may be better than the Big East, and I'm sure there will be years where the Big East will be better than the AAC. Neither of them are midmajors (just as I don't consider the MWC to be a midmajor).

 

[upstater]

If the argument is that the Big East is going to be down this particular season and that will depress interest, then I agree with you. However, it's a little bit of wishful thinking that brands like Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's are going to suddenly disappear and will be deemed to be midmajors long-term. I've seen a lot of snarky remarks about Creighton on this thread, yet they've been selling out 17,000 seats per game with a Missouri Valley Conference schedule. You can count 5 schools in America that have better attendance than Creighton: Kentucky, Louisville, Syracuse, UNC and Indiana. Once again, that's with a Missouri Valley Conference schedule (and, to boot, it's in the most college football-focused market that you could possibly get: the state of Nebraska). Marquette also sells over 16,000 seats per game and is in the top 10 of basketball attendance every year. Can anyone in the AAC (including UConn) say the same? Heck, the vast majority of schools in the Big Ten and ACC can't say the same. Plus, the Big East is still going to be playing its conference tournament at Madison Square Garden. It's still going to have tradition-rich schools that are located directly in several of the nation's top TV markets and recruiting areas.

So, let's not overstate things. While the New Big East is in no way, shape or form as good as the Old Big East for basketball, the new league also isn't within the vicinity of being a midmajor. There are going to be years where the AAC may be better than the Big East, and I'm sure there will be years where the Big East will be better than the AAC. Neither of them are midmajors (just as I don't consider the MWC to be a midmajor).

Have you ever actually been to the BET?

I went there 15 years in a row.

You are going to be very surprised by what happens in that tournament. People here know very well who attends the BET.

As for Creighton, great fans. They show up. Great history of winning. Now watch to see if they show up when they begin a history of .500 play. Because that's what I am predicting for them. Creighton is one of those schools that benefited from a ridiculously easy schedule over the years, but if you look at their performance against halfway decent competition in season, it is not pretty. Not to mention their woeful NCAA tourney record over the last 25 years. They are a paper tiger. Impressive fan support. Lots of wins. BUT...

St. John's may come back, but no one watches them now.

Agree with you about Georgetown and Villanova. The question is what happens to those programs in that conference. We'll see. The TV numbers say the interest is flatlining.

I mean, 13,000 viewers for Villanova? Seriously? I don't care what channel UConn is on, the ratings would be 10x that with 10x the viewers in Conn. alone back in the day of Conn. public television.

 

[ZooCougar]

Creighton, wherever that is, is a local phenomenon. They have no brand reach outside of Creighton land. But good for them. They definitely have a well run program, but I can't see how they drum up interest outside of a few weeks in February/March.

I wish the Big East good luck, but they face an uphill fight just like the AAC.

 

[Husky25]

The bowl money after this year will barely pay for the traveling team's costs. It will dry up. I don't think the AAC is going to see any revenue unless it lands a team in the top 4.

The pieces are not yet done moving...not by a long shot. Be that as it may, the Power 5 still have to determine if they want to split and form a 4th level. If so, does the lower tier of the Power 5 want to accept all the consequences that go along with it (pay for play, Title IX, Revenue vs. Non-revenue generating sports, ramifications on the NCAA Basketball Tournament, etc). The AAC not only has its few bowls, but it will likely be a cling-on to lower bowls of other conferences. For instance, the SEC has potentially 10 bowl tie ins. The ACC's goal is to have 11 (out of 15 teams? Unlikely to fill them all...). The cost of a bowl, any bowl, is worth the exposure for the school as a whole and the non-bowl eligible teams in a given year reap at least a small benefit without the cost.

The Big East does not even have the opportunity.

 

[CL82]

You're crazy if you think the AAC is going to get any regular prime placement on ESPN.

We're going to be ESPN's packing peanuts to fill in gaps their favored brands leave in the schedule.

It's already happening - games shoved to ESPNU, games sold off to a truly invisible CBS Sports channel, games at 6 pm on a Sunday afternoon.

of course if we win the whole damn thing, we might just get some burn next year.

 

[whaler11]

Only on the boneyard would people argue this is less exposure for the Big East. Except for Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette those schools had zero opportunity to be on national TV.

Instead they have a national network making their games the centerpiece of their winter schedule and it's less exposure?

This on a board where all kinds of people were arguing just a few short years ago how great NBCS and Fox would be to get into the bidding for the hybrid Big East?

 

[Fishy]

What were the odds that Frank would arrive to tell us how someone else is better than we are?

1:1?

 

[upstater]

Whaler with another strawman argument--I wrote there's less exposure than there is for the AAC! Everyone but you can see that.

 

[SubbaBub]

The BE teams will benefit from not having their heads handed to them on a regular basis by the former BE teams.

The BE conference will never compare to the former version.

Seton Hall v. PC will now be available nationwide where it would never have been otherwise. No one will care just like before, but it will be available.

That and an extra couple million is why they are better off than before. We would have been just as screwed as we are now if we had stayed with them.

As my flight instructor used to say, "A good pilot is constantly evaluating his position, attitude, and the horizon"

Some here should take heed with respect to what the BE/AAC are today and what they aren't.

 

[tzznandrew]

When we talk about exposure here, it seems the wires are getting crossed.

The BE teams will benefit from not having their heads handed to them on a regular basis by the former BE teams.

The BE conference will never compare to the former version.

Seton Hall v. PC will now be available nationwide where it would never have been otherwise. No one will care just like before, but it will be available.

That and an extra couple million is why they are better off than before. We would have been just as screwed as we are now if we had stayed with them.

As my flight instructor used to say, "A good pilot is constantly evaluating his position, attitude, and the horizon"

Some here should take heed with respect to what the BE/AAC are today and what they aren't.

Pretty much what I was going to say, only you said it better.

 

[UConn Dan]

If big east games are shown on fox sports, but no one is around to watch them, did they really play the games?

 

[upstater]

When we talk about exposure here, it seems the wires are getting crossed.

Pretty much what I was going to say, only you said it better.

To be clear, I can't figure out why anyone is looking at this from the BE's point-of-view. My only concern is UConn here. This is also Nelson's original thread and we know the general idea is that Uconn should abandon the AAC and try to get into the BE.

It's the whole reason we're looking at ratings and exposure for the BE. The ratings are so poor that the bball program (about the only thing UConn still has going for it) will be degraded by such a move.

 

[whaler11]

Whaler with another strawman argument--I wrote there's less exposure than there is for the AAC! Everyone but you can see that.

Well you've got dozens of posts which make it seem like you thought they had an option.

 

[upstater]

Well you've got dozens of posts which make it seem like you thought they had an option.

the whole comparison is between ESPN and Fox.
Above your most recent post I said there was less exposure in relation to the AAC. I guess you weren't responding to that post.

 

[baggerbob]

The Big East tournament no longer on ESPN, you don't have UConn, Louisville, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Notre Dame. MSG will find a way out of that contract after the ratings drop through the floor.