Big East basketball on FoxSports

[upstater]

SMU and Houston are pure crap. SMU almost beat Virginia?! Wow, that means....well, nothing.

And I didn't mention the new Big East, so I have no idea why you did.

Because this thread is about the new BE.

No one here is comparing the AAC to the ACC or anyone else. The thread is mainly about why UConn needs to affiliate (or not) with the Catholics. While 99% of the fans recognize the silliness of that idea, we're comparing the two conferences.

 

[upstater]

Considering Temple has made the NCAAT the past 6 seasons and Memphis has made it 6 of the past 7, I feel pretty confident in saying that it's a typically a 4 bid league ( adding UConn and Cincinnati).

The bottom 7 teams will suck really bad as opposed to the bottom of the NBE which will just suck.

The NBE will likely be a better overall league on the court and worlds away in current prestige but they've sold their soul to Fox ( it was their best play) and with no ESPN exposure we'll just have to see how it works out.

If teams like SMU and Houston suck bad, which they might, there are a good number of coaches who should lose their heads. SMU next year has no excuse. They'll have 3 talented guards (Moore, Frazier, Mudiay) and two top JUCO bigs (Moreia is one). That is a top 25 team. No excuses if they suck.

 

[UConnDan97]

SMU and Houston are pure crap. SMU almost beat Virginia?! Wow, that means....well, nothing.

And I didn't mention the new Big East, so I have no idea why you did.

UVA is a 7-1 quality team from the ACC, and gives perspective as to where SMU is at this point. Are they really good? No. But they aren't s---. And Upstater has already informed you of what SMU will likely become in the very near future. Your hyperbole of also classifying Memphis and Temple as s--- without data to support it or without classifying the NBE schools rubbed me the wrong way.

As to not knowing why I'm mentioning the new Big East...just wow. Thankfully, Upstater answered that one for me too...

 

[Fishy]

Ultimately, the power conferences split and the new Big East is doomed.

However, over the short, the new Big East is a vastly more appealing basketball conference.

1. UConn Georgetown
2. Cincinnati Villanova
3. Memphis Marquette
4. Temple Xavier
5. Houston Butler
6. SMU Creighton
7. UCF Providence
8. USF St. John's
9. Tulane Seton Hall
10. East Carolina DePaul.

GD...that is ugly.

 

[Fishy]

UVA is a 7-1 quality team from the ACC, and gives perspective as to where SMU is at this point. Are they really good? No. But they aren't s---. And Upstater has already informed you of what SMU will likely become in the very near future. Your hyperbole of also classifying Memphis and Temple as s--- without data to support it or without classifying the NBE schools rubbed me the wrong way.

As to not knowing why I'm mentioning the new Big East...just wow. Thankfully, Upstater answered that one for me too...

Up has no idea WTF he's talking about with SMU - their arc is down. If I gave you a dollar for every SMU game he's seen, you'd have to borrow $2 from me to buy a pack of gum. Larry will retire, the kid they bought will turn pro and where will they be? Where they always are - no where.

It's an awful hoop conference. Do you people watch anything other than UConn? Ever?

 

[UConnDan97]

Ultimately, the power conferences split and the new Big East is doomed.

However, over the short, the new Big East is a vastly more appealing basketball conference.

1. UConn Georgetown
2. Cincinnati Villanova
3. Memphis Marquette
4. Temple Xavier
5. Houston Butler
6. SMU Creighton
7. UCF Providence
8. USF St. John's
9. Tulane Seton Hall
10. East Carolina DePaul.

GD...that is ugly.

I agree with the first statement; that the NBE is doomed over time.

I disagree with the second statement, simply due to the fact that I think you and others (a.k.a., Nelson) are envisioning those teams as they were in the old Big East. For instance, Georgetown lost to Northeastern this year. They are not the elite team that they used to be.

The bottom of the conferences? No doubt, the NBE has a better bottom. But the bottom of the NBE is not good either. Those games were the "automatic wins" that we have chalked up for ourselves over the last 5 to 10 years...

 

[tzznandrew]

I agree with the first statement; that the NBE is doomed over time.

I disagree with the second statement, simply due to the fact that I think you and others (a.k.a., Nelson) are envisioning those teams as they were in the old Big East. For instance, Georgetown lost to Northeastern this year. They are not the elite team that they used to be.

The bottom of the conferences? No doubt, the NBE has a better bottom. But the bottom of the NBE is not good either. Those games were the "automatic wins" that we have chalked up for ourselves over the last 5 to 10 years...

They were a 2 seed in the tournament last year (never mind that they lost, still, season long, they were very good). They are having a bad year, but have another very good recruiting class coming in. Georgetown will be Georgetown.

 

[UConnDan97]

Up has no idea WTF he's talking about with SMU - their arc is down. If I gave you a dollar for every SMU game he's seen, you'd have to borrow $2 from me to buy a pack of gum. Larry will retire, the kid they bought will turn pro and where will they be? Where they always are - no where.

It's an awful hoop conference. Do you people watch anything other than UConn? Ever?

And for every SMU game you've seen, should I borrow $2.50?

It's amazing to me but I now see why the C-7 paid so much for the Big East name. The brand recognition gives them instant credibility, despite the fact that they have most of our old scrub teams. Again, they will be slightly better in the short term, and then worse in the long run. UConn could not have and should not have joined them, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool...

 

[UConnDan97]

They were a 2 seed in the tournament last year (never mind that they lost, still, season long, they were very good). They are having a bad year, but have another very good recruiting class coming in. Georgetown will be Georgetown.

If Georgetown will be Georgetown, then Memphis will be Memphis and Temple will be Temple. Except that I don't see Georgetown being Georgetown in the long-term, and I'm not sure they are Georgetown even in the short-term...

 

[Fishy]

We couldn't join them - we have a football program and that's the only thing that might save us long term. If, in 20 years, we're still trekking to Tulsa for basketball games, we've lost our gamble on DI football.

But as things are, they have more potential as a basketball conference than we do. They have our "old scrubs" which we have replaced with far scrubbier scrubs and the Big East name and positive press have given them a level of respect that our conference does not have. They're recruiting better, they have schools with history and they actually make sense as a conference - we're a collective of convenience.

I don't have any idea how anyone sees it differently unless hopes and dreams are considered data points. It's where we have to be at this point and it's far better than advertised in football, but the American is ugly as f--- in hoop.

 

[tzznandrew]

We couldn't join them - we have a football program and that's the only thing that might save us long term.

But as things are, they have more potential as a basketball conference than we do. They have our "old scrubs" which we have replaced with far scrubbier scrubs and the Big East name and positive press have given them a level of respect that our conference does not have. They're recruiting better, they have schools with history and they actually make sense as a conference - we're a collective of convenience.

I don't have any idea how anyone sees it differently unless hopes and dreams are considered data points.

The history is an important aspect, and everyone just imagines that will go away. That conference (NBE) only disappears if the P5 split off.

Georgetown has 1 title and 5 Final Fours (2007 most recently)
Marquette has 1 title and 3 Final Fours (2003 most recently)
Villanova has 1 title and 3 Final Fours (2009 most recently)
Butler has 2 Final Fours (2010, 2011)
DePaul has 2 Final Fours
PC has 2 Final Fours
St. John's has 2 Final Fours
Seton Hall has a Final Four
Xavier's only been to 2 E8s ever.
Creighton has only been to the S16 3 times ever.

Creighton and Xavier are the weak links historically. But those 10 teams have 3 titles and 18 Final Fours.

The American
UConn has 3 titles and 4 Final Fours
Cincy has 2 titles and 6 Final Fours (1992 most recent)
Houston has 5 Final Fours (1984 most recent)
Memphis has 3 Final Fours (2008 most recent)
Temple has 2 Final Fours (1958 most recent)
SMU has 1 Final Four (1956)
Tulsa has been to an E8

That's 5 titles and 21 Final Fours among just those 7 schools. This doesn't look terrible (although once you only count things that happened after the Kennedy administration, the conference loses 2 titles and 8 Final Fours, and it has an even more pedestrian 3 titles and 13 FFs).

But what really hurts is that USF, UCF, East Carolina, and Tulane have 12 NCAA appearances between them.

 

[Excalibur]

I bet the $4-5 million a year that every Big East schools gets from Fox softens the blow a little. How much does UConn get from ESPN?

Like I said, when all else fails, change the subject.

 

[upstater]

Ultimately, the power conferences split and the new Big East is doomed.

However, over the short, the new Big East is a vastly more appealing basketball conference.

1. UConn Georgetown
2. Cincinnati Villanova
3. Memphis Marquette
4. Temple Xavier
5. Houston Butler
6. SMU Creighton
7. UCF Providence
8. USF St. John's
9. Tulane Seton Hall
10. East Carolina DePaul.

GD...that is ugly.

I don't see the break until SMU-Creighton, and that's due to Creighton's fans. As opposed to SMU's lack of fans. But even then, I expect SMU to be better than Creighton based on talent alone. I am a huge Creighton doubter because of how they've played against decent competition, they've played badly over the years, a product of a weak conference. That being said, this year's team is more than legit because of McDermott, who is a bigger better Jimmer Fredette, and a solid candidate for player of the year. They should be top 25 all year. SMU has never done anything. Next year, when McDermott is gone, I'd expect SMU to have the upper hand.

All the BE teams in the bottom of that ranking do nothing for me except for a rivalry against St. John's, so I don't put much stock in the suckage of UCF and USF and Tulane since I care little about the BE side of the ledger. I mean, hell, St. John's is now losing to Penn State, a team that can't beat Lehigh!

 

[itgoeslike]

It would have been an incredibly dumb move, and still is, to join the NBE. UCONN would take a pay cut. Anyone who disagrees, just doesn't have a grasp on the facts. It would also mean less exposure. Anyone who disagrees doesn't have a grasp on all the facts. Doing so would also mean that we have completely abandoned our desire to compete at the highest level in all sports. And unlike the NBE, most, if not all, AAC teams aspire to be part of a power conference. In terms of basketball, the AAC, SEC, PAC and NBE will be the best of the rest when it comes to MBB, getting on average, 4 or 5 teams in the tournament (a slightly better basketball conference is irrelevant). Joining the NBE, while it may come to that, means all options for getting into a power conference have failed. I think UCONN is too good for that, and just like our athletic teams, I advocate pushing forward, and proving critics wrong. We really have no other better option at this point.

 

[itgoeslike]

The history is an important aspect, and everyone just imagines that will go away. That conference (NBE) only disappears if the P5 split off.

Georgetown has 1 title and 5 Final Fours (2007 most recently)
Marquette has 1 title and 3 Final Fours (2003 most recently)
Villanova has 1 title and 3 Final Fours (2009 most recently)
Butler has 2 Final Fours (2010, 2011)
DePaul has 2 Final Fours
PC has 2 Final Fours
St. John's has 2 Final Fours
Seton Hall has a Final Four
Xavier's only been to 2 E8s ever.
Creighton has only been to the S16 3 times ever.

Creighton and Xavier are the weak links historically. But those 10 teams have 3 titles and 18 Final Fours.

The American
UConn has 3 titles and 4 Final Fours
Cincy has 2 titles and 6 Final Fours (1992 most recent)
Houston has 5 Final Fours (1984 most recent)
Memphis has 3 Final Fours (2008 most recent)
Temple has 2 Final Fours (1958 most recent)
SMU has 1 Final Four (1956)
Tulsa has been to an E8

That's 5 titles and 21 Final Fours among just those 7 schools. This doesn't look terrible (although once you only count things that happened after the Kennedy administration, the conference loses 2 titles and 8 Final Fours, and it has an even more pedestrian 3 titles and 13 FFs).

But what really hurts is that USF, UCF, East Carolina, and Tulane have 12 NCAA appearances between them.

Apply what you did to the last 20 years and things look very different.

 

[tzznandrew]

Apply what you did to the last 20 years and things look very different.

I'm not sure if you think the American looks better of the course. Shrink it to the last 20 years, and all the accomplishments of Cincy and Houston (let alone Temple/SMU) go away.

The BE is diminished too, but, DePaul has more NCAA appearances than the bottom 5 American schools, and Creighton more than all but the top 4. The total number of Titles go to the American, and Final Fours are tied...but it's pretty much UConn and the midgets, as you see when you remove them:

1994-2013


New Big East

Butler – 2 Final Four, 2 E8, 4 S16, 11 NCAAs
Georgetown – 1 Final Four, 2 E8, 5 S16, 12 NCAAs
Villanova – 1 Final Four, 2 E8s, 4 S16s, 12 NCAAs
Marquette – 1 Final Four, 2 E8, 5 S16, 13 NCAAs
Xavier – 2 E8, 5 S16, 14 NCAAs
Providence – 1 E8, 1 S16, 4 NCAAs
St. John’s – 1 E8, 5 NCAAs
Seton Hall - 1 S16, 4 NCAAs
Creighton – 9 NCAAs
DePaul – 2 NCAAs

Over 20 years: 0 Titles, 5 Final Fours, 12 E8s, 26 S16, 8.6 NCAAs per school

American
Connecticut – 3 Titles, 4 Final Four, 8 E8, 11 S16, 15 NCAAs
Memphis – 1 Final Four, 3 E8, 5 S16, 11 NCAAs
Temple – 2 E8, 2 S16, 14 NCAAs
Cincinnati – 1 E8, 3 S16, 15 NCAAs
Tulsa – 1 E8, 3 S16, 8 NCAAs
UCF – 3 NCAAs
Houston – 1 NCAA
USF – 1 NCAA
Tulane – 1 NCAA
East Carolina – 0 NCAAs
SMU – 0 NCAAs

Over 20 years: 3 Titles, 5 Final Fours, 15 E8s, 24 S16, 6.27 NCAAs per school (with one more school)

Without UConn: 0 Titles, 1 Final Four, 7 E8s, 13 S16, 5.4 NCAAs per school

 

[itgoeslike]

I'm not sure if you think the American looks better of the course. Shrink it to the last 20 years, and all the accomplishments of Cincy and Houston (let alone Temple/SMU) go away.

The BE is diminished too, but, DePaul has more NCAA appearances than the bottom 5 American schools, and Creighton more than all but the top 4. The total number of Titles go to the American, and Final Fours are tied...but it's pretty much UConn and the midgets, as you see when you remove them:

1994-2013


New Big East

Butler – 2 Final Four, 2 E8, 4 S16, 11 NCAAs
Georgetown – 1 Final Four, 2 E8, 5 S16, 12 NCAAs
Villanova – 1 Final Four, 2 E8s, 4 S16s, 12 NCAAs
Marquette – 1 Final Four, 2 E8, 5 S16, 13 NCAAs
Xavier – 2 E8, 5 S16, 14 NCAAs
Providence – 1 E8, 1 S16, 4 NCAAs
St. John’s – 1 E8, 5 NCAAs
Seton Hall - 1 S16, 4 NCAAs
Creighton – 9 NCAAs
DePaul – 2 NCAAs

Over 20 years: 0 Titles, 5 Final Fours, 12 E8s, 26 S16, 8.6 NCAAs per school

American
Connecticut – 3 Titles, 4 Final Four, 8 E8, 11 S16, 15 NCAAs
Memphis – 1 Final Four, 3 E8, 5 S16, 11 NCAAs
Temple – 2 E8, 2 S16, 14 NCAAs
Cincinnati – 1 E8, 3 S16, 15 NCAAs
Tulsa – 1 E8, 3 S16, 8 NCAAs
UCF – 3 NCAAs
Houston – 1 NCAA
USF – 1 NCAA
Tulane – 1 NCAA
East Carolina – 0 NCAAs
SMU – 0 NCAAs

Over 20 years: 3 Titles, 5 Final Fours, 15 E8s, 24 S16, 6.27 NCAAs per school (with one more school)

Without UConn: 0 Titles, 1 Final Four, 7 E8s, 13 S16, 5.4 NCAAs per school

I guess no matter how it's sliced, neither league will even remotely resemble the real Big East.

With regard to NBE, many underestimate how parity will affect some teams as well as the impact of not playing Louisville, UCONN, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and West Virginia will have on ratings. Aside from a couple exceptions, these are not national brands with big alumni and Fox is starting to find this out the hard way. Conversely, schools like UCF, Memphis, SMU, Houston actually benefit from their new league (even if it's at UCONN's expense). In terms of NBE, the

BTW, even though I think the NBE is a bad idea for UCONN, if I'm a small, private, catholic, basketball-centric college without D1 football (4 out 5 for Butler) this is exactly right move.

 

[whaler11]

I guess the way I look at it is... Pretty much every team in the Big East is happy to be in the league. Pretty much every team in the AAC would set themselves on fire to get out.

 

[itgoeslike]

I guess the way I look at it is... Pretty much every team in the Big East is happy to be in the league. Pretty much every team in the AAC would set themselves on fire to get out.

That's because teams in the NBE have achieved their maximum potential.

 

[whaler11]

That's because teams in the NBE have achieved their maximum potential.

Eh I think what people are missing as a positive is that the Big East is now positioned to be the best basketball league that doesn't have football schools attached.

I think it helps them recruit. Hey, Player A -why not come here and be the big man on campus with no football team to play second fiddle to?

Now they aren't going to generally be better than the ACC or Big 10 or Pac 12 - but most years will be the 4-6th best conference and in the mix with the SEC, American, Big 12.

I think Fox might end up being an issue - if it really flops that could hurt them.

 

[noeynox]

I don't think Fox sports 1 or 2, is the issue. I think the Big East is the issue. The link below is from Bleacher Report, but I know that people have tuned in to the fox sports networks to watch UFC content. Maybe, just maybe, people just aren't that enthralled by this version of the Big East to tune in. Its very early, and far from definitive, but I don't think you can point to the Fox Sports Networks as to why the Big East ratings are poor. People have no trouble finding it on their cable provider to watch programming the want to watch like the UFC.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-26-draws-huge-ratings-for-fox-sports-1-debut

 

[whaler11]

UFC is a very specific fanbase that has been going to what turned into FS1 and FS2 for a while.

Also, UFC has a few hours of fights a week available. There are like 20 basketball games a day available. UFC has a scarcity that college basketball can't ever recreate.

 

[itgoeslike]

Eh I think what people are missing as a positive is that the Big East is now positioned to be the best basketball league that doesn't have football schools attached.

I think it helps them recruit. Hey, Player A -why not come here and be the big man on campus with no football team to play second fiddle to?

Now they aren't going to generally be better than the ACC or Big 10 or Pac 12 - but most years will be the 4-6th best conference and in the mix with the SEC, American, Big 12.

I think Fox might end up being an issue - if it really flops that could hurt them.

I pretty much see it the same way.

The NBE games haven't had a lot of visibility, at least from where I sit. That could be problematic for a player that wants face time to help his NBA prospects. Fox has always bought big to drive traffic. In this instance, I'm not convinced that the content has enough national appeal to drive people to FS-1 (a la Netflix and Breaking Bad), so current numbers reflect relatively small groups of targeted demographics. We'll see where it ends up.

 

[noeynox]

I agree with both your points. UFC does have a loyal fan base, whom are very grateful that Fox is putting on so many free/non pay perview events.

Of the 20 some basketball games available, fans are finding the current big east among the least desirable to watch. Can that change, sure. Will it change so much that Fox will want to re up with them at what they are currently paying them down the line? I doubt it.

Before I got into UConn football I was huge CBB fan. Would watch every game I could. I'm still intrigued enough to tune in to many ACC games, not just only the marquee names, but I'll watch Wake/NC State. Other than GTown/Villanova/St. Johns, if they're playing each other there just isn't much else I find interesting. Not Butler, Not Creighton, Not Depaul, Not Marquette. The same can be said for the teams in the AAC, but since they are now in our league I'm sure I'll find myself watching those teams.

 

[whaler11]

I agree with both your points. UFC does have a loyal fan base, whom are very grateful that Fox is putting on so many free/non pay perview events.

Of the 20 some basketball games available, fans are finding the current big east among the least desirable to watch. Can that change, sure. Will it change so much that Fox will want to re up with them at what they are currently paying them down the line? I doubt it.

Before I got into UConn football I was huge CBB fan. Would watch every game I could. I'm still intrigued enough to tune in to many ACC games, not just only the marquee names, but I'll watch Wake/NC State. Other than GTown/Villanova/St. Johns, if they're playing each other there just isn't much else I find interesting. Not Butler, Not Creighton, Not Depaul, Not Marquette. The same can be said for the teams in the AAC, but since they are now in our league I'm sure I'll find myself watching those teams.

I think it's tough to measure though. Basketball fans go to ESPN. If these Big East games were on ESPN the ratings would be better. If the games on ESPN were on FS1 their ratings would be worse.

Two points;
a: Fox needs to get FS2 on systems. Nobody has it.
B: even with terrible FS ratings it's still better for everyone but Georgetown and Villanova

As for personal tastes I like mid major basketball and local conferences:

I watch AAC, ACC, NEC, America East, MAAC, A-10, Big East. I have a soft spot for MWC - but really can't watch the SEC or Big 12. I don't enjoy Big 10 basketball but see enough to know what's going on.