Big 12 Presidents arriving in NYC, will discuss expansion at some point

[Jericho]

But, the Big12 might be worried about how they might fare in a world without automatic qualifiers. While 2 or 3 other conferences grab multiple high-paying bowls, the best the B12 can hope for is that UO and Texas are good in the same year. With the BE out of the picture, suddenly the AQ is more appealing again for the hogs.

Doubtful. The Big 12 is arguably the most successful conference during the BCS era. They're certainly the only conference not to have their champion finish outside the Top 10 in any year (yes, it has happened to the SEC). they are consistantly highly regarded. If anything, they probably welcome a non-AQ BCS system.

 

[Jericho]

You're overrating Oklahoma and underrating the PAC 12.

The PAC 12 has no use for Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. Without Texas, Oklahoma cannot go to the PAC 12 - they have zero leverage.

The PAC 12 with the best television contract on this side of the NFL can never make another move and be just fine.

On the flip side, if you ever want to see a school that stepped in s***, it's Utah.

How duck*ed up is it that UConn is in dire straits and Utah is going to be making $21M a year in TV cash?

I love this post.

I fully agree that Oklahoma is not going Pac-12 w/o Texas. I'm sure they'd love to bolt on their own (well, with OSU), but the Pac does not want them by themselves.

I agree that Utah is the school that lucked out in all this. They should send thank yous to Texas, ESPN, and Fox and whomever else helped kill the potential Texas/Texas Tech/Texas A&M/Oklahoma/Oklahoma State merger. That failed and left the Pac sitting at 11 and no great options. Utah was the best one left.

As to the Big 12/Big East...

I'm not entirely sure why the Big 12 does not want to go 12. It seems to be driven by Texas to stay at 10 and somewhat opposed by Oklahoma to go to 12. I suspect Texas is fine splitting the Big 12 pie 10 ways (for now). Splitting it 12 ways would make their piece smaller, but I'd think that would be offset by additional money from a Conference Championship game and a few more TV markets. Maybe my math is wrong.

It's long been rumored the Big 12's current deal requires 10 teams. How they do that for next year is unclear. I don't see the WVU situation being resolved (although it could) and I thought they already let Missouri go (although maybe not officially). I'd have to imagine adding two more allows for rengotiation of broadcast rights, but maybe since they were overpaid to start with the thought is little money, if any, would be gained.

There's certainly no incentive to add 4-5 teams as some here have suggested. Too many teams splitting essentially the same amount of money. Louisville makes the most sense. BYU would make the ideal compliment (although they seem to piss everyone off and may not ever get an invite). If no BYU, Rutgers or Cincinatti would seem next in line. That's not good news for UConn, although if it forces Notre Dame to a decision, that will help

 

[upstater]

Doubtful. The Big 12 is arguably the most successful conference during the BCS era. They're certainly the only conference not to have their champion finish outside the Top 10 in any year (yes, it has happened to the SEC). they are consistantly highly regarded. If anything, they probably welcome a non-AQ BCS system.

The old Big12, not the new. When OU was down for more than a decade, Nebraska held the fort and even Texas A&M was good for a decade. Heck, McCartney's Colorado teams were national title contenders. The old Big12 always had 4 marquee teams.

The new Big12 has 2. if one swoons like Texas did this year, they're left with one rep while the SEC will get 3 yearly.

 

[Fishy]

The teams in the Big 12 not named Texas are never going to be able to relax.

Texas is the sun in their universe and if their sun jumps to another universe, they all become the Big-East-on-the-Prairie Conference. They'd be done for.

For that reason, I think it does make sense for them to expand - there is safety in numbers, to some extent. (Although the Big East has found no safety in numbers and no safety without numbers.) I think Louisville is as good as gone and I think it makes even more sense for them to add an additional school to get to 12.

That way if the the sky falls and Texas and their goiter, Texas Tech, go to the Pac 12, they're still a perfectly viable conference at ten. (Unlike the Big East, a conference with Oklahoma, West Virginia, Oklahoma State and whoever happens to be good that year is still very decent.)

If the sky falls and the earth opens up and Texas, their goiter and the Oklahomas go to the Pac 12, the Big 12 is still the Medium-Big 8 and they're still alive. They can then go about adding Air Force, BYU and whoever to get back above water.

Basically, expansion is Texas insurance for them and I fully expect them to pursue it.

And in pursuing it, they are going to cleave the Big East's corpse in two. I'm sure that's why podunky dips*** schools like Boise State and San Diego State are not leaping at our offers.

 

[noeynox]

If I keep saying this, perhaps someone will listen.

The Big 12 doesn't need to leak anything to keep the Big East 'off balance'. It simply doesn't matter. They can act with complete indifference for anything the Big East might do.

They can split this conference apart with a phone call now or next year or the year after that or...

Clearly, you underestimate the power of roses in all this. A fresh bouquet went out this morning. I read it on twitter.

 

[Mr. Hand]

Can we #Begharder for the Big whatever the it is this week to expand sooner, rather than later? Notre Dame doesn't seem to understand that the Big East is now past tense, no matter what.

Notre Dame has always had a somewhat delusional vision of the college football landscape, especially their own place in it, and I realize they have a powerful enabler in NBC, but at some point, reality has to gradually seep in. Right?

 

[Fishy]

Notre Dame has a perfect understanding of the college football universe and their place in it.

The people who think Notre Dame is delusional are in fact delusional themselves.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The old Big12, not the new. When OU was down for more than a decade, Nebraska held the fort and even Texas A&M was good for a decade. Heck, McCartney's Colorado teams were national title contenders. The old Big12 always had 4 marquee teams.

The new Big12 has 2. if one swoons like Texas did this year, they're left with one rep while the SEC will get 3 yearly.

Except that OSU is #3 in the BCS this year and will likely land in a BCA bowl. K-State isn't far from it.

 

[Mr. Hand]

Notre Dame has a perfect understanding of the college football universe and their place in it.

The people who think Notre Dame is delusional are in fact delusional themselves.

Notre Dame is the chair of the Big East expansion committee. Now, setting aside the ridiculous fact that a team that does not even play football in the conference is chairing the expansion committee, "Big East" and "expansion" are oxymorons. I have to question the sanity of anyone who sees the exercise as anything other than a waste of time.

Notre Dame wants some place to park their non-football sports, I get that. Take out a map of the country, look at it for five minutes, and tell me where that conference is? It only exists in the minds of Notre Dame, and nowhere else.

 

[upstater]

Except that OSU is #3 in the BCS this year and will likely land in a BCA bowl. K-State isn't far from it.

If you're relying on OSU and K St., you're in deep trouble. No different than saying Louisville.

 

[Jericho]

The old Big12, not the new. When OU was down for more than a decade, Nebraska held the fort and even Texas A&M was good for a decade. Heck, McCartney's Colorado teams were national title contenders. The old Big12 always had 4 marquee teams.

The new Big12 has 2. if one swoons like Texas did this year, they're left with one rep while the SEC will get 3 yearly.

Yes and No. I agree with what you are saying about the past. Colorado and Nebraska carried the Big 12 in the later 1990s, back when Oklahoma sucked and Texas was only decent. Nebraska is what I would call a kingpin team and Colorado, A&M, and Missouri all provided decent depth. Of course none of those teams were particular good the last 5 years outside of Missouri. It's the natural ebb and flow of college football and why the ACC looks as weak as it does without Florida State and Miami flying high.

However, the Big 12 did add TCU and West Virginia to mitigate their losses. How good TCU will be post Andy dalton is up for debate, but being in a major conference with some track record of success should help. If TCU is decent, the pair should help replace some depth. And Kansas State is traditionally pretty strong. They've been ranked fairly consistantly for 10-15 years.

It would have also have helped if Texas Tech still had Mike Leach. He had that program at a very respectable level. a Texas/TT/OU/KSU led conference with teams like WV/TCU/OSU is not bad. Outside of Notre Dame, there's no kingpin team to replace Nebraska. But depth can be obtained by adding a couple other quality programs (like BYU). That's the best the Big 12 can hope for and easily will be fine for Bowl/strength of schedule purposes.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Yes and No. I agree with what you are saying about the past. Colorado and Nebraska carried the Big 12 in the later 1990s, back when Oklahoma sucked and Texas was only decent. Nebraska is what I would call a kingpin team and Colorado, A&M, and Missouri all provided decent depth. Of course none of those teams were particular good the last 5 years outside of Missouri. It's the natural ebb and flow of college football and why the ACC looks as weak as it does without Florida State and Miami flying high.

However, the Big 12 did add TCU and West Virginia to mitigate their losses. How good TCU will be post Andy dalton is up for debate, but being in a major conference with some track record of success should help. If TCU is decent, the pair should help replace some depth. And Kansas State is traditionally pretty strong. They've been ranked fairly consistantly for 10-15 years.

It would have also have helped if Texas Tech still had Mike Leach. He had that program at a very respectable level. a Texas/TT/OU/KSU led conference with teams like WV/TCU/OSU is not bad. Outside of Notre Dame, there's no kingpin team to replace Nebraska. But depth can be obtained by adding a couple other quality programs (like BYU). That's the best the Big 12 can hope for and easily will be fine for Bowl/strength of schedule purposes.

K-State has been good under Snyder, and stumbled when he left (of course before Snyder, they were the dead last worst program in America). I think we may be seeing Oklahoma State making a step up and staying pretty strong for some time. KU has two good years each decade. But it's a pretty solid league overall. Even Baylor has a good team at present. Let me put it this way, there are three Big XII teams that would win the ACC easily, and that's with UT having a bad year.

 

[Fishy]

Notre Dame wants some place to park their non-football sports, I get that. Take out a map of the country, look at it for five minutes, and tell me where that conference is? It only exists in the minds of Notre Dame, and nowhere else.

Notre Dame can join any conference in the country with one phone call. They can watch the Big East twitch until it dies because they can bounce to a safe haven in a moment's notice. That's their reality whether you like it or not.

And someone is gonna pop up and say they Big 10 would refuse them - bull s***.

Jim Delany would dry duck* Alonzo Stagg's corpse if Notre Dame told him to.

 

[Mr. Hand]

Notre Dame can join any conference in the country with one phone call. They can watch the Big East twitch until it dies because they can bounce to a safe haven in a moment's notice. That's their reality whether you like it or not.

They can absolutely join any conference they want, any time they want. You're arguing against a point I never made. This is no cheap shot I'm taking.

Let me clarify. They don't want to join a conference. The extent that they will go to in order to maintain independence in football is what I find difficult to comprehend. They're, at least in principle, willing to degrade all other sports in their athletic department to sub-MAC levels just to maintain independence in football. They weigh independence in football heavier in importance than all other endeavors their athletic department combined.

There exists no university who has more willingly whored itself out for money in the entirety of college sports. Every university sells out, but the golden domers take the cake. At the same time, they also attempt to portray themselves as the pinnacle of unversity standards and ethics. There exists a disconnect between what they say and what they do that is viscerally disgusting.

I know why they're doing it, it has to do with the letters "NBC." That doesn't excuse it. I guess we're going to find out how far they'll go.

 

[Fishy]

You don't like Notre Dame. Got it.

 

[Mr. Hand]

As long as we're clear on that.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Notre Dame can join any conference in the country with one phone call. They can watch the Big East twitch until it dies because they can bounce to a safe haven in a moment's notice. That's their reality whether you like it or not.

And someone is gonna pop up and say they Big 10 would refuse them - bull s***.

Jim Delany would dry duck* Alonzo Stagg's corpse if Notre Dame told him to.

If that was true, Notre Dame would already be in another conference. The other leagues are drawing lines of what they will tolerate from the Irish and what they won't.

Same with Texas. The Texahoma traveling road show this summer resulted in two teams leaving the Big 12 that weren't Texas or Oklahoma.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I really hope the Big 12 comes for Rutgers, because that will force the ACC's hand in a way that no amount of begging harder by Herbst would ever do. If it looks like Rutgers will be gone forever, the ACC may make a move, and UConn might be able to tag along. It would be ironic if Herbst's public shopping of the university accomplished nothing but being Rutgers' beatch was our salvation.

 

[Fishy]

If that was true, Notre Dame would already be in another conference. The other leagues are drawing lines of what they will tolerate from the Irish and what they won't.

Same with Texas. The Texahoma traveling road show this summer resulted in two teams leaving the Big 12 that weren't Texas or Oklahoma.

Notre Dame and Texas can join any conference they want - I didn't say they'd be able to dictate their own television deals on the way in.

 

[RS9999X]

I really hope the Big 12 comes for Rutgers, because that will force the ACC's hand in a way that no amount of begging harder by Herbst would ever do. If it looks like Rutgers will be gone forever, the ACC may make a move, and UConn might be able to tag along. It would be ironic if Herbst's public shopping of the university accomplished nothing but being Rutgers' beatch was our salvation.

I'd love to be in a conference with Miami.

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[huskyrob1]

JM will show up. He and Neinas can have a cordial chat- and include Swofford by teleconference- about the current state of conference realignment. Then Swofford can covertly discuss ACC membership with UConn right afterward.

If there's chicken parm and sauce bolognese over fettucine JM will show up.

 

[Jericho]

If that was true, Notre Dame would already be in another conference. The other leagues are drawing lines of what they will tolerate from the Irish and what they won't.

Same with Texas. The Texahoma traveling road show this summer resulted in two teams leaving the Big 12 that weren't Texas or Oklahoma.

I think he means Notre Dame can join as a full member, treated the same as everyone else. Ditto for Texas. But neither wants to be an equal sharing partner at this time.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I really hope the Big 12 comes for Rutgers, because that will force the ACC's hand in a way that no amount of begging harder by Herbst would ever do. If it looks like Rutgers will be gone forever, the ACC may make a move, and UConn might be able to tag along. It would be ironic if Herbst's public shopping of the university accomplished nothing but being Rutgers' beatch was our salvation.

You need to explain this in a bit more detail.

 

[Hoophound]

You need to explain this in a bit more detail.

If B12 grabs Rutgers, a big New York market program is gone. The ACC might then move on UConn as a hedge. I think the ACC realizes Rutgers in the B12 makes no sense unless UCONN comes too. The ACC probably finds it hard to believe that the B12 would come that far east anyway so they aren't worried about it.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

If B12 grabs Rutgers, a big New York market program is gone. The ACC might then move on UConn as a hedge. I think the ACC realizes Rutgers in the B12 makes no sense unless UCONN comes too. The ACC probably finds it hard to believe that the B12 would come that far east anyway so they aren't worried about it.

Basically, if it looks like the Big 12 will take Rutgers, the ACC may have its hand forced, and would probably add Rutgers and UConn rather than continue to wait for ND. The ACC probably can't even wait for Rutgers to get the offer, because by that point, it is probably too late.

It would be major egg on Swofford's face if another major got a foothold in the NY Market because he was hoping Notre Dame would show up.

 

[upstater]

Basically, if it looks like the Big 12 will take Rutgers, the ACC may have its hand forced, and would probably add Rutgers and UConn rather than continue to wait for ND. The ACC probably can't even wait for Rutgers to get the offer, because by that point, it is probably too late.

It would be major egg on Swofford's face if another major got a foothold in the NY Market because he was hoping Notre Dame would show up.

The ACC can take Rutgers away from the Big12 any time it wants. Big12 is an unstable league that will collapse. Rutgers wouldn't stay in the Big12 unless it had too.

Then again, I couldn't understand the ACC's move this summer when it picked off Pittsburgh because they were talking to the B12, as though Pitt wouldn't have picked up and left for the ACC at any time, so you might be right.

These schools will use the B12 the way TCU used the BE.

 

[Hoophound]

The ACC can take Rutgers away from the Big12 any time it wants. Big12 is an unstable league that will collapse. Rutgers wouldn't stay in the Big12 unless it had too.

Then again, I couldn't understand the ACC's move this summer when it picked off Pittsburgh because they were talking to the B12, as though Pitt wouldn't have picked up and left for the ACC at any time, so you might be right.

These schools will use the B12 the way TCU used the BE.

They won't necessarily jump to leave the B12 and pay a big exit fee to move to an ACC that is weaker in football and vulnerable to SEC poaching. Its better that the ACC not let it get to that point.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Big 12 $'s > ACC $'s, for now at least.

 

[Jericho]

Big 12 $'s > ACC $'s, for now at least.

But travel costs have to be much higher for an Eastern team. That likely offsets any financial gain. There also remains the stability issue of the Big 12. I don't think they're that unstable, but should Texas leave, it will really hurt. And that is possible, although unlikely in the near future. Combined, the ACC seems like a much better fit if Rutgers is choosing.

Honestly, I don't see Rutgers and the Big 12 being that big of a risk. While I would think Rutgers would take any BCS AQ conference over the Big East (as West Virginia did), I'm not sure the feeling is mutual. The Big 12 may not go to 12 anytime soon, and they certainly are not going over 12. Louisville seems like the obvious first choice, with Rutgers seemingly down the list for #2. And let's face it, if Rutgers brought any sizable TV market presence, they would have been scooped up by someone else long ago.

I don't see how any of this forces the ACC. If Rutgers goes, they still could explore a UConn/ND expansion. Not sure anything happens w/o Notre Dame anyway. I don't see how UConn/Rutgers brings enough to the table to push the ACC to move forward. And it's always financially better to wait for Notre Dame if there's a remote possibility they may join the conference.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

But travel costs have to be much higher for an Eastern team. That likely offsets any financial gain. There also remains the stability issue of the Big 12. I don't think they're that unstable, but should Texas leave, it will really hurt. And that is possible, although unlikely in the near future. Combined, the ACC seems like a much better fit if Rutgers is choosing.

Honestly, I don't see Rutgers and the Big 12 being that big of a risk. While I would think Rutgers would take any BCS AQ conference over the Big East (as West Virginia did), I'm not sure the feeling is mutual. The Big 12 may not go to 12 anytime soon, and they certainly are not going over 12. Louisville seems like the obvious first choice, with Rutgers seemingly down the list for #2. And let's face it, if Rutgers brought any sizable TV market presence, they would have been scooped up by someone else long ago.

I don't see how any of this forces the ACC. If Rutgers goes, they still could explore a UConn/ND expansion. Not sure anything happens w/o Notre Dame anyway. I don't see how UConn/Rutgers brings enough to the table to push the ACC to move forward. And it's always financially better to wait for Notre Dame if there's a remote possibility they may join the conference.

Either the Big 12 wants Rutgers or not. Your opinion or my opinion of Rutgers' value is irrelevant. Several members of the Big 12 have already targeted Rutgers over Cincinnati if the Big 12 expands to 12. That is all that matters.

Now it is a question of whether the Big 12 is prepared to do anything about it. I think over half the Big 12 schools would go to 14 and take Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers and UConn tomorrow if they could, as insurance against an inevitable Texas departure. It appears Texas would rather no one have insurance, and instead be dependent on Texas' good graces. We shall see what happens.

The ACC's approach to UConn and Rutgers is simple. They will take those two when they have to, and not a day before. Unless someone else forces the ACC's hand, they ACC will do nothing and hope UConn and Rutgers whither away and become Rice. What the ACC absolutely can NOT have happen is another major take one or both. That would be a disaster for the league that just added Syracuse and Pitt and their shrinking markets.

I think if it looks like UConn and Rutgers will survive in a NNBE or some other league, the ACC will add them. I think everyone realizes that ND is yanking EVERYONE's chain, as usual.