Big 12 Meetings

[Hoophound]

They need to expand with the best schools in the best markets. The other members need to protect themselves. Unreal how dopey they are.

 

[junglehusky]

They need to expand with the best schools in the best markets. The other members need to protect themselves. Unreal how dopey they are.

UConn has the best brand / market / school combo of any G5 school. The problem is the existing brands / markets / schools in the B12 are for the most part barely better than an upper tier AAC school. It is now clear, and it came straight from the horse's mouth (Boren) that nobody is interested in starting a cable network that would rely on Kansas State, TCU, Baylor, Texas Tech - those schools right there would be 1/3 of the content of a 12-team Big 12. What can those schools really do to protect themselves? Adding UConn / Cincy or UCF will not protect that league from blowing up when UT and OU decide to bail. If you still trust Flugar's OU sources, supposedly those two schools, while bickering over Boren's public comments, are still committed to playing each other and maintaining ties between the schools. So maybe in 2024 they'll shop themselves as a package deal. If that's what they're going to do there is nothing the TCU's and TTU's can do to stop them.

 

[billybud]

It is the defining of "best schools" that folks won't agree on.....One guys best is another guys meh.

Markets may be important in a carriage fee model....or they may not be as in the SEC's relatively small markets (Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Starkeville, Oxford, Columbia...).

Football brand may be important or may not be...same with basketball.

Academics may be important....or may not be.

Contiguity may be important...may not be.

Prior long relationship with a conference may be important...and may not be.

I guess that we will only see when things really shake out.

 

[Hoophound]

I disagree. By taking the best schools available, the B12 schools that will be left behind will still have a conference with traditional rivals. Otherwise, they'll have to hope they get in the AAC, which can't take all of them and which has Tulane, Tulsa and ECU.

Right now, those 8 plus UConn, BYU, Cincy and Houston or USF and it is definitely a power conference. BTW, now that Texas is likely on the way out, Houston is a lock if they expand.

 

[UConn Dan]

Confirming the narrative that came out of the end of the meetings: Boren Says Big 12 Expansion Talks Cooling Off

if somebody comes forward that’s just a great star that wants to join the conference…

UConn stands up: "guys I'm right here!"

 

[UConnTrumbull]

Confirming the narrative that came out of the end of the meetings: Boren Says Big 12 Expansion Talks Cooling Off

Honestly, another year of UConn football before any P5 conference even really thinks about expansion is a good thing. This past year we improved but the narrative was still that UConn does nothing to move the needle in football. A 8-4 year this season would begin to change that narrative.

 

[hardcorehusky]

If you take out Texas and OU from the Big 12, the remains will not be a P5 conference and there will be contraction - to a P4. If FSU and Clemson leave the ACC- you could have a P3. Greed will do that.

 

[The Viking]

If you read between the lines Boren is asking schools like FSU and Clemson to make the jump. He's asking for stars to come forward and singles out the ACC as a conference that the Big 12 is surpassing in terms of moneys paid out per school. He mentions the Pac 12 but really sticks a thumb in the eye of the ACC.

Question - have they decided yet whether or not to do the CCG? Would they really go 2 divisions of 5??

They can always add 2 and force ESPN/Fox to pony up 50 mil per year into the Big 12 coffers to make it two divisions of 6.

But I think its fairly obvious that Boren doesn't give a rats ass about UConn.

 

[Ldandy]

It is the defining of "best schools" that folks won't agree on.....One guys best is another guys meh.

Markets may be important in a carriage fee model....or they may not be as in the SEC's relatively small markets (Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Starkeville, Oxford, Columbia...).

Football brand may be important or may not be...same with basketball.

Academics may be important....or may not be.

Contiguity may be important...may not be.

Prior long relationship with a conference may be important...and may not be.

I guess that we will only see when things really shake out.

While I agree that conferences often have different motivations for why they expand, ultimately the key reason is $. Where I disagree with your post is on The SEC. While there was little they could do about the minor markets of existing members, as soon as The SEC Network was a reality all future members would be based on a carriage fee model. Same as in The Big 1o. Also the same reason you'll never see a redundant media market added like Clemson or FSU.

 

[billybud]

Despite all of the fantastical talk...I don't think that you will have FSU, Clemson, or like GOR bound programs going anywhere for the next decade.

The GOR that was finally obtained through an FOIA request by a determined lawyer fan, was reviewed and thoroughly discussed on Warchant. There is no out for not having a network. A network is not even mentioned in the GOR.

The GOR states that only the written provisions contained in the contract are operable and that no other provision exists.

I would love other options. But wanting them and having them are different things. FSU is not going to walk away from the conference wirh the GOR in place.

Why? Because it can't take that risk. Even if it had a 50/50 chance to avoid the sanction, that's too much risk. And it can't leave without a place to go and no one would take a school that may not own any of its own media rights for the next decade.

No football conference loves an FSU or Clemson that much. And they shouldn't. It would be a ridiculously stupid business risk.

Now, when the GORs wind down...then that is an iguana of another color.

 

[nd73]

Despite all of the fantastical talk...I don't think that you will have FSU, Clemson, or like GOR bound programs going anywhere for the next decade.

The GOR that was finally obtained through an FOIA request by a determined lawyer fan, was reviewed and thoroughly discussed on Warchant. There is no out for not having a network. A network is not even mentioned in the GOR.

The GOR states that only the written provisions contained in the contract are operable and that no other provision exists.

I would love other options. But wanting them and having them are different things. FSU is not going to walk away from the conference wirh the GOR in place.

Why? Because it can't take that risk. Even if it had a 50/50 chance to avoid the sanction, that's too much risk. And it can't leave without a place to go and no one would take a school that may not own any of its own media rights for the next decade.

No football conference loves an FSU or Clemson that much. And they shouldn't. It would be a ridiculously stupid business risk.

Now, when the GORs wind down...then that is an iguana of another color.

That makes sense in every state but West Virginia.

 

[CL82]

Despite all of the fantastical talk...I don't think that you will have FSU, Clemson, or like GOR bound programs going anywhere for the next decade.

The GOR that was finally obtained through an FOIA request by a determined lawyer fan, was reviewed and thoroughly discussed on Warchant. There is no out for not having a network. A network is not even mentioned in the GOR.

The GOR states that only the written provisions contained in the contract are operable and that no other provision exists.

I would love other options. But wanting them and having them are different things. FSU is not going to walk away from the conference wirh the GOR in place.

Why? Because it can't take that risk. Even if it had a 50/50 chance to avoid the sanction, that's too much risk. And it can't leave without a place to go and no one would take a school that may not own any of its own media rights for the next decade.

No football conference loves an FSU or Clemson that much. And they shouldn't. It would be a ridiculously stupid business risk.

Now, when the GORs wind down...then that is an iguana of another color.

IIRC, there was language referencing collateral agreements executed at substatially similar time and incorporating them in the agreement. I'm not saying your conclusion about the GoR not being contingent on the ACCN is wrong, but there was wiggle room in the agreement.

 

[Fishy]

A grant of rights is a grant of rights.

If there's wiggle room, it's not a grant of rights.

 

[CL82]

A grant of rights is a grant of rights.

If there's wiggle room, it's not a grant of rights.

The GoR specifically recognizes and incorporates collateral potential colleteral agreement executed at substantially similar times. I have no idea whether they exist or what they say, but it was a interesting inclusion in the contract.

 

[TerryD]

That makes sense in every state but West Virginia.

And Michigan. Bluevod tells us that "FSU lawyers" have guaranteed that the ACC GOR is absolutely breakable. Except, they have not and no lawyer would ever give such an opinion.

 

[billybud]

IIRC, there was language referencing collateral agreements executed at substatially similar time and incorporating them in the agreement. I'm not saying your conclusion about the GoR not being contingent on the ACCN is wrong, but there was wiggle room in the agreement.

The only reference in the ACC GOR (and Big 12 GOR which Kyles Lamb posted) to another agreement, is the the conference media agreement (with ESPN for the ACC).

 

[billybud]

ACC GOR review (GOR itself can not be copied from behind a paywall).


. The deal was signed 4/19/13 (or at least that was the date on the Agreement itself). It was between what were then the "Current Members" of the ACC, and Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and Notre Dame as "the Accepted Members."

2. Contracts often have what are called "Whereas" clauses, the purpose of which is to identify a background and reason behind the deal. They are not legally controlling of anything, but can looked to in interpreting the actual contract terms because they identify the purpose of the contract.

+ that the entities wanted to enhance the stability of the conference;

+ that the entities had previously entered into a contract with ESPN (7/8/10) and related extension agreement (5/9/12)

+ that the "Accepted Members" agreed to be part of the ACC knowing the GoR would be in place

+ that a "condition to the agreement of ESPN to offer additional consideration as part of a further amendment to the Amended ESPN Agreement" each school "is required to, and desires to, irrevocably grant to the Conference, and the Conference desires to accept from each of the [schools], those rights granted herein"

+ Grant of Rights. The lawyers use a half page of legal language to explain that each school irrevocably and exclusively grants to the conference ALL rights "necessary for the Conference to perform the contractual obligations of the Conference expressly set forth in the ESPN Agreement, regardless of whether such Member Institution remains a member of the Conference during the entirety of the Term" and agrees to "satisfy and perform all contractual obligations of a Member Institution during the Term that are expressly set forth in the ESPN Agreement." The Rights granted are very broad and include all IP associated with the production or distribution of ALL events of each school that are subject to the ESPN Agreement.

+ Additional Members. This confirms no new member can join the ACC without being subject to this Agreement.

+ Term. The deal is through 6/30/27. That's not new. What is interesting is it includes a sentence "clarifying" that all the schools agree to be bound "even though the term of their membership in the Conference has not yet begun."

+ Warranties. This is a lot of legalese that basically says all the schools promise they have followed every law/rule/condition to binding each school to the Agreement.

+ Copyrights and Licenses. All are assigned consistent with the overall Grant of Rights.

+ Access. The schools agree to provide ESPN "reasonable access" so ESPN can do what it is permitted to do under the ESPN Agreement.

+ Miscellaneous. This section includes the integration clause. "This Agreement, together with any substantially contemporaneous agreement between the Conference and an affiliated entity of a Member Institution relating to the Rights, sets forth the entire understanding of the parties hereto relating to the grant of rights and related subject matter provided for herein and [] supersedes all prior understandings among or between any of the parties relating to the Grant of Rights and related subject matter provided for herein."

(there is thought that the affiliated entity of a Member Institution are like IMG and the like who have media and advertising contracts but there is no further definition in the GOR).

 

[billybud]

The only reference in the ACC GOR (and Big 12 GOR which Kyles Lamb posted) to another agreement, is the the conference media agreement (with ESPN for the ACC).

I take that back as wrong....the GOR also mentions, as I posted above, certain affiliates of the Member Institution.

 

[nd73]

And Michigan. Bluevod tells us that "FSU lawyers" have guaranteed that the ACC GOR is absolutely breakable. Except, they have not and no lawyer would ever give such an opinion.

I bet this guy would.

 

[NEforceUConn]

What I don't understand about CR and "extending your audience/following/footprint/TV network":

The Big 12 and ACC have maybe 3 schools that "make" the conference with the others being willing partners/serfs. But to pass on a National brand like UConn always surprises me.

ACC takes Pitt and Fruit U compared with a national brand?
Big 12 consides Cincy, Memphis, UCF compared with a national brand?
Even the B1G, with maybe 4 anchor, schools, can not think that UConn Nation means someting?

Jesus these guys need a grad student working for Goldman or PwC to kindly explain to them what a National brand is.

Maybe I'm a homer, but I think its quite evident that UConn is a National Brand.

Football be damned, Proctor and Gamble Pringles are a national brand.

When UConn finally gets a conference and establishes itself all will see what a mistake it was to keep us in the D league for so long.

Pergutory is so taxing for a UConn fan

 

[Fishy]

Now I'm starving.

Does anyone have any Pringles?

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I have to admit if I was asked to come up with a list of national brands
I would never have thought of Pringles
Maybe UConn =Pringles
Truly a national brand but not one that readily comes to mind.

 

[Adios]

When UConn finally gets a conference and establishes itself all will see what a mistake it was to keep us in the D league for so long.

It's already a mistake as it is, unless they actually want us to win more championships. At least in sports other than football.

 

[NEforceUConn]

I have to admit if I was asked to come up with a list of national brands
I would never have thought of Pringles
Maybe UConn =Pringles
Truly a national brand but not one that readily comes to mind.

Yes not sure how Pringles popped into my distorted mind last night. Upon review I should have gone with Colgate.

............I miss that edit key.......

 

[CL82]

The only reference in the ACC GOR (and Big 12 GOR which Kyles Lamb posted) to another agreement, is the the conference media agreement (with ESPN for the ACC).

"This Agreement, together with any substantially contemporaneous agreement between the Conference and an affiliated entity of a Member Institution relating to the Rights, sets forth the entire understanding of the parties hereto relating to the grant of rights and related subject matter provided for herein and [] supersedes all prior understandings among or between any of the parties relating to the Grant of Rights and related subject matter provided for herein."
​

I don't know if any "substantially contemporaneous agreement between the Conference and an affiliated entity of a Member Institution relating to the Rights" exists but this language opens the door to there being more to the story than is currently available to the public.

 

[billybud]

The conference may have an agreement with Booster groups affiliated with the school...for instance Seminole Boosters sell all FSU home and allotted away tickets and bowl tickets.

Seminole Boosters is a DSO (direct support organization) under Florida law

In Florida, DSOs exist to support school functions but do not have the same presumption of openness under public records law. Instead, they have only a narrow scope of records that they must provide in response to public records requests.

And, when the press came calling to ask about the records of the Seminole Boosters, primarily concerning contracts with Advent for work on the indoor practice facility..they were turned away.

The Seminole Boosters construct at the stadium, on the practice fields, etc...for the university, but not under the open records law.

But...the Seminole Boosters may not sign a contract for the university...they do so in their own name using their funds....from donations, season tickets, concession sales, parking sales, club seats sales, University Club and Champions Club sales, etc.

 

[upstater]

Carriage fees apply to discrete networks, but markets are also important as they relate to good old fashioned TV ratings. People are throwing their minds out when they discuss these issues. I've seen people post such nonsense like, TV market doesn't matter if you don't have a network to charge carriage fees.

Hello? Ever hear of TV ratings? Advertisers?

 

[UConn Dan]

"This Agreement, together with any substantially contemporaneous agreement between the Conference and an affiliated entity of a Member Institution relating to the Rights, sets forth the entire understanding of the parties hereto relating to the grant of rights and related subject matter provided for herein and [] supersedes all prior understandings among or between any of the parties relating to the Grant of Rights and related subject matter provided for herein."
​

I don't know if any "substantially contemporaneous agreement between the Conference and an affiliated entity of a Member Institution relating to the Rights" exists but this language opens the door to there being more to the story than is currently available to the public.

I thought this clause was due to ND's deal with NBC.

 

[CL82]

I thought this clause was due to ND's deal with NBC.

ND's deal with NBC preexisted the GOR. It wasn't substantially contemporaneous. Besides it is between the conference and an "affiliated entity of a Member institution."

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Yes not sure how Pringles popped into my distorted mind last night. Upon review I should have gone with Colgate.

..I miss that edit key..

Pringles is a brilliant analogy for UConn ,a national brand but easily overlooked unless you think about it.