Best College Coaches?

[seeya27]

You can't compare Calhoun's early years (his first 5) to Self's first 5 years at KU. The programs were at entirely different places.

Calhoun's program -- from 1990-2011 - was built from scratch. Self on the other hand had an established powerhouse from the get-go.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Not disputing your well-researched position in any way. But in the same 20 years he has coached Kansas, UConn has won 4 NCs - double that of KU.

In essence, UConn could have been a 1 seed for all 4 of those Nattys and exceeded Seed expectation and KenPom expectation. But we were a 2, 3,7, and.4 seed instead.

Self wins but not nearly as often in the NCAAT. Given the way we know he has cheated the system, he gets no tears from me.

Comparing any program to us is just setting them up to fail.

I think Izzo only has one championship period as another HOF coach.

 

[REB1094]

Friendly reminder that there are 6 head coaches in the history of college basketball with more than 2 rings

3 of those 6 are from 30+ years ago

 

[HuskyHawk]

Strong disagree here, I don't think that is even remotely reasonable. Even if you take the all time GOATs; Calhoun won 3 titles in 26 years at UConn, Coach K won 5 in 42 years at Duke, Jay Wright won 2 in 21 years at Villanova.

If Self winning 2 in 20 years is an indication of poor March performance then every one of those coaches falls in that category too. And hint, none of those guys are remotely close to poor March performers

Agreed. There are 15 programs that have won multiple titles, several not in the modern era (San Francisco, OK State, Cinci). So if a dozen programs have done it, and you've done it as a coach, that's impressive.

I know I tend to defend Self, but people are sometimes a bit lazy describing the "talent" KU has. The team 2 years ago had zero 5 stars. Christian Braun was a local 3 star and now plays for the Nuggets. KU gets an occasional 5 star, but mostly has 4 and 3 star guys. I'd argue that's why they win. Same formula UConn has, talented guys with experience over trying to win with multiple one and done guys. Scheyer has taken notice and said publicly that Duke is going to try to build that way again. Hard to win with so many freshmen.

 

[pj]

But in the same 20 years he has coached Kansas, UConn has won 4 NCs - double that of KU.

You're comparing Self's Kansas to the one of the greatest positive outliers in performance in all of sports.

We can't identify winning national championships with greatness in coaching, otherwise we'd have to make Kevin Ollie one of the great all-time coaches, and he had trouble even getting a coaching job, congrats to Kevin for his gig with the Nets.

 

[BigTenFan]

Agreed. There are 15 programs that have won multiple titles, several not in the modern era (San Francisco, OK State, Cinci). So if a dozen programs have done it, and you've done it as a coach, that's impressive.

I know I tend to defend Self, but people are sometimes a bit lazy describing the "talent" KU has. The team 2 years ago had zero 5 stars. Christian Braun was a local 3 star and now plays for the Nuggets. KU gets an occasional 5 star, but mostly has 4 and 3 star guys. I'd argue that's why they win. Same formula UConn has, talented guys with experience over trying to win with multiple one and done guys. Scheyer has taken notice and said publicly that Duke is going to try to build that way again. Hard to win with so many freshmen.

I think it's harder to win now more than ever due to transfer portal and one and done
Wooden won with student athletes who stayed 4 years. To win back to backs will be exceedingly rare. I believe last team to do it was Florida

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're comparing Self's Kansas to the one of the greatest positive outliers in performance in all of sports.

We can't identify winning national championships with greatness in coaching, otherwise we'd have to make Kevin Ollie one of the great all-time coaches, and he had trouble even getting a coaching job, congrats to Kevin for his gig with the Nets.

You'd also have to conclude that Mark Few and Brad Stevens aren't any good. National Championships require a lot of good fortune. Matchups, injuries, everything has to go right.

I'm still amazed that KU hasn't missed the tournament since before I attended (1989).

 

[August_West]

Kim English. It is just as likely or even possible he is the best coach in the country.

 

[August_West]

You'd also have to conclude that Mark Few and Brad Stevens aren't any good. National Championships require a lot of good fortune. Matchups, injuries, everything has to go right.

I'm still amazed that KU hasn't missed the tournament since before I attended (1989).

Some may say that maybe it isn't about good fortune, maybe it is about Karma. Maybe Karma is the reason Calipari and Self underachieve when all the chips are down.

 

[McLovin]

I think Bill Self is a big cheater. And I love to make fun of Kansas fans on Twitter about UConn having more (real) championships.

But it’s silly to argue that he’s not the best (or at least second best, but behind who?) active coach today.

Yes titles are a factor, but if you look at the rate other great modern era coaches win National Titles at power programs (Calhoun 1 every 8.67 years / K 1 every 8.4 years / Wright 1 every 10.5 years / Williams 1 every 11.67 years) Self is right there with 1 every 11.5 years.

There is a good chance he gets a 3rd soon.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Some may say that maybe it isn't about good fortune, maybe it is about Karma. Maybe Karma is the reason Calipari and Self underachieve when all the chips are down.

There's a reason some people call our titles lucky. Going to only 6 final fours and losing a single game is just amazing. Karma definitely favors the Huskies in the same way it hates the Buffalo Bills. Who else has 6 FFs? Arkansas, Nova, Syracuse, Michigan, Houston. North Carolina has 21. Our record in those games is astonishing.

 

[Cagey_Tee]

How about this for a Mount Rushmore of living college coaches—-Coach K, Roy Williams, Jim Calhoun, and Bobby Knight?

I think Jay Wright belongs in the conversation - perhaps ahead of Knight.

 

[August_West]

I think Jay Wright belongs in the conversation - perhaps ahead of Knight.

Bobby Knight is insanely overrated, and I rate him higher than he should be just for beating Syracuse in 87. But lets face it, a broom could knock Boeheim out of a game that counts.

 

[EBonz30]

You're making everyone else's point here. You're exactly right that nobody, not even Cal, comes into March as a high seed as consistently as Bill Self. He does it almost every year. And that's exactly why he's the answer here for best coach.

You're completely missing just how hard it is to win in March in a single elimination tournament. 2 titles in 20 years is very impressive and gets overlooked by UConn fans because we've had a better run. The reasons why Self seemingly loses so often as a top seed is because he has Kansas as a top seed every single year. Knocking him for that is bizarre.

It seems for most people here they'd like Self a lot more if he had a ton of disappointing regular seasons and all those tournament losses came as a 6 or 7 seed instead of a 1 or 2 seed. It makes as much sense as the Brady/Montana or Jordan/LeBron debates where people view an undefeated finals record as some sort of holy grail

We can go on & on about the stats, wins, bad losses, etc. I just don’t think Self is a great in game coach, great program builder/coach yes, but when I am choosing the best coach in the nation I am not going to pick a coach who I don’t think is a top 10 in game coach in the nation. Also, his first title is a joke- no way no chance Memphis losses that game, but they had a worse in game coach coaching.

Give me the coach who his a master in game & solid program builder like Pitino- go check the second half of Louisville/Michigan. Give me Calhoun- a masterful in game coach & wonderful program builder.

Also, love Wright & Knight as well. Way too much energy & script on this thread about Self- pretty shocking to me how much love he is getting.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

We can go on & on about the stats, wins, bad losses, etc. I just don’t think Self is a great in game coach, great program builder/coach yes, but when I am choosing the best coach in the nation I am not going to pick a coach who I don’t think is a top 10 in game coach in the nation. Also, his first title is a joke- no way no chance Memphis losses that game, but they had a worse in game coach coaching.

Give me the coach who his a master in game & solid program builder like Pitino- go check the second half of Louisville/Michigan. Give me Calhoun- a masterful in game coach & wonderful program builder.

Also, love Wright & Knight as well. Way too much energy & script on this thread about Self- pretty shocking to me how much love he is getting.

The best big-game coach in college hoops? Coaches overwhelmingly say it's one man

“He’ll beat you from tip to finish and can work the game and change momentum when it’s not going his way.”

theathletic.com

 

[August_West]

The best big-game coach in college hoops? Coaches overwhelmingly say it's one man

“He’ll beat you from tip to finish and can work the game and change momentum when it’s not going his way.”

theathletic.com

 

[HuskyHawk]

The best big-game coach in college hoops? Coaches overwhelmingly say it's one man

“He’ll beat you from tip to finish and can work the game and change momentum when it’s not going his way.”

theathletic.com

Too many haters here for them to buy that. But if you watch them regularly, they change styles constantly to fit personnel. Had a #1 seed playing a 6'7" forward at center last year. Not a small ball 5 that can shoot, more like Andre Jackson. Yes, they lost to Arkansas, but Self wasn't coaching. This team will be drastically different. If they didn't hate him, UConn fans would probably appreciate the similarity to another great who won playing very different styles as needed.

My big question about Hurley was that he seemed very set in his ways at URI and early at UConn. Wanted to see him adapt. Last year he really did it, making significant changes. Even midseason, utilizing Adama differently on offense was huge. This year he has to adapt again, because he cannot run his normal defense with Clingan. I have no doubt he will have them ready.

 

[seeya27]

You're comparing Self's Kansas to the one of the greatest positive outliers in performance in all of sports.

We can't identify winning national championships with greatness in coaching, otherwise we'd have to make Kevin Ollie one of the great all-time coaches, and he had trouble even getting a coaching job, congrats to Kevin for his gig with the Nets.

And that reinforces my point. I have said multiple times Self is elite and a winner. But greatest of all time, or the greatest of our era? I deeply question that.

Yes, he wins regular season and conf titles. But to be the greatest means you are at least comparable to the greatest NC-winning teams/coaches in the modern era. And to me, that equates to somewhat consistently winning the hardest single event in all of sports.

In the past quarter century, UConn has won NCs every 4.8 years. KU has won them every 12.5 years; Self has won them every once every 10 years.

He may eventually get to GOAT status for sure. But all I ever hear from Kansas fans is winning a NC is hard. It requires luck and no injuries (and injuries make a difference certainly). Timing, etc. Again, not that teams are remotely able to win every year. These however are all excuses. When UConn loses, we as a fanbase/administration acknowledge we simply weren't good enough that year. But I never hear that from KU apologists.

Self's lost 18 of 20 years, and almost all were as a top 1 or 2 seed (representative of being one of the top teams in the country), and only rarely as low as a 4. Achieving that consistently is undoubtedly an enormous accomplishment, but that alone hardly makes him the singular best coach in the game. In big NCAAT games he falters, which he doesn't do in his conf tournaments. Plus he's been clobbered (double-digit losses) in some of those losses.

He's great. But the greatest of all time? Is that the guy you'd want coaching your team in "one game"? For me, it's Pitino, K, or Calhoun every day.

One last note about KO: we all know this, but he beat Wright, Hoiberg, Izzo, Donavan, and then Calipari. Some of the greatest coaches of our era. He beat them consecutively with an undersized, under-appreciated team. Good/bad luck didn't play a role in that gauntlet of wins. He was the better coach in that moment -- and that does make it one of the greatest coaching jobs in history.

Just my opinion.

 

[auror]

And that reinforces my point. I have said multiple times Self is elite and a winner. But greatest of all time, or the greatest of our era? I deeply question that.

Yes, he wins regular season and conf titles. But to be the greatest means you are at least comparable to the greatest NC-winning teams/coaches in the modern era. And to me, that equates to somewhat consistently winning the hardest single event in all of sports.

In the past quarter century, UConn has won NCs every 4.8 years. KU has won them every 12.5 years; Self has won them every once every 10 years.

He may eventually get to GOAT status for sure. But all I ever hear from Kansas fans is winning a NC is hard. It requires luck and no injuries (and injuries make a difference certainly). Timing, etc. Again, not that teams are remotely able to win every year. These however are all excuses. When UConn loses, we as a fanbase/administration acknowledge we simply weren't good enough that year. But I never hear that from KU apologists.

Self's lost 18 of 20 years, and almost all were as a top 1 or 2 seed (representative of being one of the top teams in the country), and only rarely as low as a 4. Achieving that consistently is undoubtedly an enormous accomplishment, but it that alone hardly makes him the singular best coach in the game. In big NCAAT games he falters, which he doesn't do in his conf tournaments. Plus he's been clobbered (double-digit losses) in some of those losses.

He's great. But the greatest of all time? Is that the guy you'd want coaching your team in "one game"? For me, it's Pitino, K, or Calhoun every day.

One last note about KO: we all know this, but he beat Wright, Hoiberg, Izzo, Donavan, and then Calipari. Some of the greatest coaches of our era. He beat them consecutively with an undersized, under-appreciated team. Good/bad luck didn't play a role in that gauntlet of wins. He was the better coach in that moment -- and that does make it one of the greatest coaching jobs in history.

Just my opinion.

He and Pitino are the only active coaches with 2 titles, and 1 of Pitino's was vacated.

Ask Izzo how hard it is to win 2. Izzo hasn't won a title in 23 years.

 

[navery12]

He's great. But the greatest of all time? Is that the guy you'd want coaching your team in "one game"? For me, it's Pitino, K, or Calhoun every day.

And that's why you continue to miss the point. Because the discussion is not about Self being one of the greatest coaches of all time, it's about him being one of the best ACTIVE coaches. Outside of Pitino you keep throwing around names of guys who are retired and irrelevant to the discussion

 

[superjohn]

Agreed. There are 15 programs that have won multiple titles, several not in the modern era (San Francisco, OK State, Cinci). So if a dozen programs have done it, and you've done it as a coach, that's impressive.

I know I tend to defend Self, but people are sometimes a bit lazy describing the "talent" KU has. The team 2 years ago had zero 5 stars. Christian Braun was a local 3 star and now plays for the Nuggets. KU gets an occasional 5 star, but mostly has 4 and 3 star guys. I'd argue that's why they win. Same formula UConn has, talented guys with experience over trying to win with multiple one and done guys. Scheyer has taken notice and said publicly that Duke is going to try to build that way again. Hard to win with so many freshmen.

I think we would've beaten them but I'm happy we didn't have to face them in the tournament last season. Self got screwed out of a #1 seed run last season because of his health and they were the team to beat in the Covid cancelled tournament year as well. No matter what anyone thinks of him his consistent excellence is unmatched.

Also so many of his 5 star recruits never panned out for him at Kansas for whatever reasons. Cliff Alexander, Cheick Diallo, Carlton Bragg, Brannen Greene, Josh Selby, Quentin Grimes all come to mind. Often times it's the 3 star players who turn out to be his stars and leaders.

Even Joel Embiid only averaged 11 points per game as a freshman before getting injured and missing the Big 12 tournament and NCAA's.

 

[EBonz30]

The best big-game coach in college hoops? Coaches overwhelmingly say it's one man

“He’ll beat you from tip to finish and can work the game and change momentum when it’s not going his way.”

theathletic.com

Thanks for sending, but unfortunately I cannot read it…..appreciate it though.

 

[EBonz30]

Too many haters here for them to buy that. But if you watch them regularly, they change styles constantly to fit personnel. Had a #1 seed playing a 6'7" forward at center last year. Not a small ball 5 that can shoot, more like Andre Jackson. Yes, they lost to Arkansas, but Self wasn't coaching. This team will be drastically different. If they didn't hate him, UConn fans would probably appreciate the similarity to another great who won playing very different styles as needed.

My big question about Hurley was that he seemed very set in his ways at URI and early at UConn. Wanted to see him adapt. Last year he really did it, making significant changes. Even midseason, utilizing Adama differently on offense was huge. This year he has to adapt again, because he cannot run his normal defense with Clingan. I have no doubt he will have them ready.

I don’t hate Bill Self, I don’t hate any college coaches, hard to hate someone I never met, but I guess your point is some people on this board hate him & it blinds their analysis?

I believe he has a very strong offensive system & he does very well in developing bigs- especially for the college game. He has taken a number of bigs who are not the most talented, tallest, athletic & makes them very capable & good to great college players ala Nick Collison, Thomas Robinson, Morris Twins, Perry Ellis, Cole Aldrich, Udoka Azubuike, Dedric Lawson, Wayne Simien- very good with undersize bigs & making very good college players & a lot of the time lottery picks- who besides the Morris twins all have been zeroes in the NBA- & even the Morris twins play the wing a lot in the league. Embiid obviously a top talent but only played one year- wonder how he would developed with more time. Even the player you mentioned in K.J. Adams had a very nice year at only 6 foot 7- can see him having another strong year this year. I believe that is Self’s greatest strength, with that said per my message from earlier I don’t believe he is a great in game coach.

 

[seeya27]

And that's why you continue to miss the point. Because the discussion is not about Self being one of the greatest coaches of all time, it's about him being one of the best ACTIVE coaches. Outside of Pitino you keep throwing around names of guys who are retired and irrelevant to the discussion

So I will be a man about this... and acknowledge I screwed up. You are right, this discussion was about active coaches. I co-mingled this discussion and one I was having online with KU fans about Self being the GOAT.

I wasted your time discussing "greatest ever" rationales. My bad.

FTR, I don't "hate" Self. I don't hate any coach either. Truth be hold though, I don't entirely like him because I inherently believe the FBI had his balls to the wall, and he and the school should have been punished. Similarly but different to the UNC academic scandal. When I compare those two scandals to the penalties UConn faced (especially the retroactively applied GPA violations) it fries my brain.

But that said, Self would be the best active coach today.

He would not be the guy I would want in one game (I know, not the question asked); with the same talent, I would choose Kelvin.

And on the GOAT list, he is further down the list for the moment, IMO.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I don’t believe he is a great in game coach.

The point of that article that you're unable to read is that a lot of successful division 1 coaches consider him the best bench coach around.