Ashton-Langford, W. Jackson, V. Jackson, Ali, Samuel, Cassell, Lubin, Enoch...

[Stainmaster]

and then the coach rips you apart on the sidelines.

Didn't I read here that Ollie wasn't ripping people apart enough?

 

[Tenspro2002]

Hindsight is 20/20, but Ali has not looked good at UCLA at all so far. The only two CBB players over the past few years I can think of who had to redshirt for non-medical reasons after their freshman year are Kelly Olynyk (not comparable in any other fashion) and Tulsa's T.K. Edogi (who actually lost his spot on the team for next year).

I was particularly bothered by the comments from the poster who had been in the gym with the dad at his HS games. I don't think UConn has ever had a parent come in like that from the start.



So like I said above, if we're going with this line of thought, Ali isn't a miss then.



Diallo was a bad miss, but for different reasons. To finish in the top two in this conference, not have embarrassing regular season losses, and regularly make the tournament with a good chance at a trip to the second or third weekend, which is what I think is a good baseline for us as long as we are still in the AAC, we don't need Top 10-15 guys any more than Calhoun did. I mentioned in an earlier thread that Drummond, Ray, Charlie, Donyell, and maybe Kemba are the only comparably ranked players Calhoun got in his 26-year tenure here (and it might even be a reach to put Diallo on Drummond's level - wasn't he literally #2 in his class?).

It was a bad miss a) if you're a poster for whom the "blue blood" status symbol is important and wants to match up against Duke and Kentucky on the trail and on the court, and b) from the standpoint that in hindsight, the staff put too many eggs in one basket - David Beatty wanted to come here, Bruce Brown may have at one point...those are two players whom I would've loved to see in a UConn uniform.

Re. Stone, Govan, I'm not looking to hash out the same arguments about sanctions or KO simply not having the chops and closing ability in his fourth year of coaching that JC did after doing it since the seventies, since we are simply going to disagree there.

Before I respond, I just want to say how I appreciate that we're able to have these impassioned debates on these issues without the ad hominem stupidity you see elsewhere. I respect that.

The issue is 2-fold: (1) perception, and (2) on-court results. Obviously one feeds into the other, and vice versa, but it's instructive to break it apart here.

(1)
Regardless of whether Prince Ali panned out at UCLA, having him de-commit in the manner that he did, coming on the heels of his breaking out on the AAU circuit, was a bad look, perception-wise. It signaled that UConn isn't big-time enough for a player of that caliber.

Likewise, losing Diallo was a major blow to how this program is perceived. That's true whether he turns out to be the next Michael Jordan or the next Aaron Harrison. Losing Stone wasn't great either for our perception.

(2)
I don't entirely disagree on your point regarding one-and-done talent as it affects on-court results. We saw it first-hand with Drummond. Our program should have as its backbone those 2-3 year studs that we thrived with during our heyday in the 90's and 00's.

The problem is that, if we keep plummeting in regarding to perception, soon it's not just the one-and-dones who fail to give us the time of day. Then it's the 2-3-year guys, possibly like MAL. If we're not perceived as a destination for top talent, then we're stuck with only low-rated, 4-year guys, and you can't win with that either.

 

[Walker11]

I was criticized saying KO needs to counsel the players and give them some guidance not this take it or leave it approach - that's not going real well for us is it?

If we have another departure mentioning Miller's loss I might start blaming you for telling KO to fire GM.

 

[superjohn]

...have all de-committed or transferred in the last 3 years. Am I missing anyone? Some of these guys just weren't good enough to play here i.e. Lubin & Cassell, but regardless, there has been WAY too much turnover since the 2014 title.

You can throw Turtle Jackson, Prince Ali, and Samuel in not being good enough or we dodged a bullet on. Jury is out on Enoch, Vance, and MAL. We simply need to be better at identifying the right kid and getting him.

 

[Jerry1714]

Turtle, Samuel, Cassell, and Lubin weren't good enough to play here, so no retaining "talent" wasn't an issue in their cases. In all cases it was a mutual decisions or UConn pushing them out.

Ali- was recruited over, didn't play this year and I don't think anyone is complaining that we got Jalen.

Enoch, Vance and MAL- concerning but no need to write the program off

I'd actually put Enoch in the first category. Yes he would have gotten time but that's because of numbers not talent. Only thing we're losing with Enoch is a body (which right is actually pretty important)

 

[Jay-Bone]

Who W Jackson?

One time top 15-20 recruit who had a knee injury in his junior? year and then became D1 talent level obsolete. Suspect that had more to do with the parting ways.

 

[Stainmaster]

Before I respond, I just want to say how I appreciate that we're able to have these impassioned debates on these issues without the ad hominem stupidity you see elsewhere. I respect that.

The issue is 2-fold: (1) perception, and (2) on-court results. Obviously one feeds into the other, and vice versa, but it's instructive to break it apart here.

(1)
Regardless of whether Prince Ali panned out at UCLA, having him de-commit in the manner that he did, coming on the heels of his breaking out on the AAU circuit, was a bad look, perception-wise. It signaled that UConn isn't big-time enough for a player of that caliber.

Likewise, losing Diallo was a major blow to how this program is perceived. That's true whether he turns out to be the next Michael Jordan or the next Aaron Harrison. Losing Stone wasn't great either for our perception.

(2)
I don't entirely disagree on your point regarding one-and-done talent as it affects on-court results. We saw it first-hand with Drummond. Our program should have as its backbone those 2-3 year studs that we thrived with during our heyday in the 90's and 00's.

The problem is that, if we keep plummeting in regarding to perception, soon it's not just the one-and-dones who fail to give us the time of day. Then it's the 2-3-year guys, possibly like MAL. If we're not perceived as a destination for top talent, then we're stuck with only low-rated, 4-year guys, and you can't win with that either.

Perception is an issue, you are right. I think, however, we are permanently at odds with the magnitude of these knocks to our perception. For example, I don't think we are "never getting another Top 100 player over 6'3"" just because Enoch and Vance transferred. I also am very loath to cite Ali as a true perception hit, simply because of how he's flamed out since arriving at college; I wonder how many people outside of the UCLA and UConn fanbases would be able to pick him out of a lineup, much less pinpoint the circumstances behind his recruitment.

I also want to bring up something completely knew, which is that perceptions are not only temporary, but quite fickle if you stop and think about it. (Forewarning: these examples are all hypothetical, and I'm in no way saying that they are likely) If by some miracle we get one of the Mama Diarras to come in and have even a Vital-like freshman year at the 4, or Cobb thrives on putbacks and bullying other guys in the post, anyone holding Enoch over our heads will have to hold it a little less high. Or if the Chillious hire pays off and we start to get a few of those bigger guys who are good for our perception, then missing Diallo or Stone or whomever is simply not going to matter as much. Back in 09/10, a lot of the fanbase was upset at Calhoun for missing out on the Knights and Jenningses, among others. Several years later, that wasn't even a thought in the back of people's minds. Sure, different situation, but I think bringing aboard somebody who ran point for two top-10 draft picks in the past two years puts us in a far better position to do so than we would be otherwise. Again, I'm not commenting on the likelihood of that shift occurring - merely noting its possibility.

 

[intlzncster]

Agreed on your first part -- some of those guys weren't good enough. Letting them go was the right decision, but why were they brought in in the first place?

Ali was absolutely not recruited over, that's such a ridiculous take. Ali blew up at an AAU event and decided he wanted a bigger stage. KO was left at the altar. The fact that we got Adams later was a consolation, but is largely unrelated.

The last 3 are worrisome. Either he's not bringing in the right guys, or he can't get them to stick around. I'd include Hamilton in that category as well, frankly.

Why Hamilton? If you want good players, you have to prepare for them to leave early these days. Whether they are ready or not.

 

[intlzncster]

It's a fair point Chief, one of the first times I've agreed with you! I'm not sure if it's guidance or not. But I really suspect that he gives off one vibe as a recruiter and a much different one as a coach. People do not respect people who seem "two-faced" especially when we're selling the "brotherhood" angle and then the coach rips you apart on the sidelines.

JC was the nicest, most genial guy in the room during home visits. Turned into the terminator when the kids got to campus.

It is true that, kids don't seem to want 'tough love' as much these days. They've grown up coddled to in the AAU scene, it's a shock to the system. Harder and harder to find the junk yard dog guys.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Why Hamilton? If you want good players, you have to prepare for them to leave early these days. Whether they are ready or not.

JC got guys who were much, much better prepared for the pros after 2 years to stick around for a 3rd year.

Hamilton clearly wasn't ready for the NBA, but KO didn't have the clout to get him to stay.

The issue isn't bring in early-entrant-caliber players. The issue is being able to get the most out of those players, including getting them to buy into what you tell them about when they're ready (both for the player's good, and for the team's best interests).

 

[upstater]

I have heard rumblings about KO not being loved by the players. More than rumblings actually. I wonder what JC thinks about all of this.

And Calhoun was loved? Let's ask Josh Boone, Alex Oriakhi, and Gavin Edwards about that, as well as countless others.

 

[intlzncster]

JC got guys who were much, much better prepared for the pros after 2 years to stick around for a 3rd year.

Hamilton clearly wasn't ready for the NBA, but KO didn't have the clout to get him to stay.

The issue isn't bring in early-entrant-caliber players. The issue is being able to get the most out of those players, including getting them to buy into what you tell them about when they're ready (both for the player's good, and for the team's best interests).

What other coach would have that clout who was a reasonable possibility instead of Ollie? I mean, Ollie was fresh off and NC and talked about for NBA jobs every other week. Hard to figure.

 

[King Husky]

I have heard rumblings about KO not being loved by the players. More than rumblings actually. I wonder what JC thinks about all of this.

I could see a scenario in which KO's constant preaching of cliches and corny phrases would cause some players to not buy into that and feel like a lack of substance/toughness coming from their head coach. Is that possible?

 

[JSM1970]

T Sam never made a 3 in 2 years @ UConn.

He finally made a few this past year at PSU.

Quick personal anecdote that some may find amusing, I remember playing pick-up at UConn with one of my buddies, and we had Samuel, Cassell and Lubin on our team. Game to 11 against a pretty average group of kids in my class.

We lost 11-5. Samuel and Lubin took every shot and shot maybe 20% combined.

 

[JSM1970]

Joe D said again there could be more so I think what he was hearing wasn't MAL. Who knows.

If we have another departure mentioning Miller's loss I might start blaming you for telling KO to fire GM.

 

[intlzncster]

I could see a scenario in which KO's constant preaching of cliches and corny phrases would cause some players to not buy into that and feel like a lack of substance/toughness coming from their head coach. Is that possible?

The 2014 team loved that.

 

[dennismenace]

I have heard rumblings about KO not being loved by the players. More than rumblings actually. I wonder what JC thinks about all of this.

It is absolutely not necessary that he be loved. It is absolutely necessary that he be respected and obeyed.

 

[sled dog]

...have all de-committed or transferred in the last 3 years. Am I missing anyone? Some of these guys just weren't good enough to play here i.e. Lubin & Cassell, but regardless, there has been WAY too much turnover since the 2014 title.

Too many kids leaving especially in the last week or so counting our recruit who has asked out. Something is brewing in Storrs. Must be more to it than has been reported so far.

 

[gtcam]

There are two players in the title of this thread whose departure bothered me outside of the initial emotional response. One of them, MAL, has never played a minute of college basketball. I recall reading back through the archives here and noticing that most people here were positively smitten with Larrier when we were recruiting him in HS. Now, in the other thread where you provided an analysis of KO's recruiting, you wrote him off after having a "mediocre freshman year."

The other, Vance, is a disappointment, but it had to happen given the issues with the father. This program cannot afford to allow the parent of a player to dictate the structure of the team and what individuals' roles are in the offense. If that's a demand that's being made, a coach cannot put up with that unless the player is quite literally Lonzo Ball. Additionally, this is something I had held off on mentioning out of a desire to be as respectful to Vance as possible on his way out; especially towards the end of the season, I noticed many occasions during the games where Vance was simply unsure of where he was supposed to be. I'm talking not knowing where to stand or move during offensive sets, forgetting he was responsible for throwing the ball in, not knowing his spot in the zone. It got to a point during the tournament where Vital, another freshman who came in ranked much lower than him, had to pull him aside a couple of times and tell him where he needed to be. Isn't one of your biggest indictments of KO his failure to field a team of players with the appropriate level of basketball IQ, especially as it related to the graduating seniors?

As a general note, I have seen you make many posts about how the players who transferred out after the 2015 and 2016 seasons were not UConn level recruits, and how shameful it was that KO brought such subpar talent into the program. As a result, when you try and spin these players' transfers as a failure in player retention on KO's part, I have trouble taking it seriously.

CMON Stair are you actually questioning Mr. Positive???

 

[dennismenace]

"We simply need to be better at identifying the right kid and getting him".

That's it in a nutshell. We need warriors.

 

[King Husky]

"We simply need to be better at identifying the right kid and getting him".

That's it in a nutshell. We need warriors.

Well that may be true, but it doesn't excuse the fact that we're bleeding players worse than USF.

 

[Lefty2one]

I could see a scenario in which KO's constant preaching of cliches and corny phrases would cause some players to not buy into that and feel like a lack of substance/toughness coming from their head coach. Is that possible?

I don't think that's an issue, that's more what the media picks up on and runs with since it's a cutesy angle. I'm sure he's not like that behind closed doors and in practices day-to-day.

I'm wondering if it's more of his tone during these trying times. A lot of coaches struggle to walk the fine line when it comes pushing things too far in the game of "tough love". It's a skill, coaches can be good at it (JC, even though even he had his issues) and coaches can be terrible at it (Mike Rice, Matt Doherty, etc). The last thing a program needs is players tuning out the coach.

 

[shizzle787]

This is what I don't get: if you want to be a "blue blood," you need to be be bringing in "blue blood"-level prospects. You can't compete with the 5-star-loaded teams of Duke and UK without locking up whatever 5-star talent you can get your hands on. And in the AAC, one doesn't exactly have the pick of the litter when it comes to 5-stars unless you hire their father as an assistant.

I thought the argument was that we were still recruiting well in the AAC.

 

[dennismenace]

Well that may be true, but it doesn't excuse the fact that we're bleeding players worse than USF.

I'm keeping the faith. I like the coaching change and if he brings toughness and recruiting I think he is going to work great with KO. Tons of energy.

 

[Jerry1714]

JC got guys who were much, much better prepared for the pros after 2 years to stick around for a 3rd year.

Hamilton clearly wasn't ready for the NBA, but KO didn't have the clout to get him to stay.

The issue isn't bring in early-entrant-caliber players. The issue is being able to get the most out of those players, including getting them to buy into what you tell them about when they're ready (both for the player's good, and for the team's best interests).

Since 2005 the only player JC got to stay for their junior year who was in a better NBA position was Thabeet. I presume you understand its little different now than 2005.

To say KO didn't have the clout to get him to stay is really really dumb. Did Calaparri not have the clout to have the Harrisons or Orton stay? I could give a list of 20 players from top programs who leave before they should because that is the world we live in right now.