Ashton-Langford, W. Jackson, V. Jackson, Ali, Samuel, Cassell, Lubin, Enoch... | The Boneyard

Ashton-Langford, W. Jackson, V. Jackson, Ali, Samuel, Cassell, Lubin, Enoch...

Yankees32123

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...have all de-committed or transferred in the last 3 years. Am I missing anyone? Some of these guys just weren't good enough to play here i.e. Lubin & Cassell, but regardless, there has been WAY too much turnover since the 2014 title.
 
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So KO doesn't have a problem recruiting or retaining talent?

Turtle, Samuel, Cassell, and Lubin weren't good enough to play here, so no retaining "talent" wasn't an issue in their cases. In all cases it was a mutual decisions or UConn pushing them out.

Ali- was recruited over, didn't play this year and I don't think anyone is complaining that we got Jalen.

Enoch, Vance and MAL- concerning but no need to write the program off
 

MASSconn

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I have heard rumblings about KO not being loved by the players. More than rumblings actually. I wonder what JC thinks about all of this.
 

Stainmaster

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So KO doesn't have a problem recruiting or retaining talent?

There are two players in the title of this thread whose departure bothered me outside of the initial emotional response. One of them, MAL, has never played a minute of college basketball. I recall reading back through the archives here and noticing that most people here were positively smitten with Larrier when we were recruiting him in HS. Now, in the other thread where you provided an analysis of KO's recruiting, you wrote him off after having a "mediocre freshman year."

The other, Vance, is a disappointment, but it had to happen given the issues with the father. This program cannot afford to allow the parent of a player to dictate the structure of the team and what individuals' roles are in the offense. If that's a demand that's being made, a coach cannot put up with that unless the player is quite literally Lonzo Ball. Additionally, this is something I had held off on mentioning out of a desire to be as respectful to Vance as possible on his way out; especially towards the end of the season, I noticed many occasions during the games where Vance was simply unsure of where he was supposed to be. I'm talking not knowing where to stand or move during offensive sets, forgetting he was responsible for throwing the ball in, not knowing his spot in the zone. It got to a point during the tournament where Vital, another freshman who came in ranked much lower than him, had to pull him aside a couple of times and tell him where he needed to be. Isn't one of your biggest indictments of KO his failure to field a team of players with the appropriate level of basketball IQ, especially as it related to the graduating seniors?

As a general note, I have seen you make many posts about how the players who transferred out after the 2015 and 2016 seasons were not UConn level recruits, and how shameful it was that KO brought such subpar talent into the program. As a result, when you try and spin these players' transfers as a failure in player retention on KO's part, I have trouble taking it seriously.
 
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Turtle, Samuel, Cassell, and Lubin weren't good enough to play here, so no retaining "talent" wasn't an issue in their cases. In all cases it was a mutual decisions or UConn pushing them out.

Ali- was recruited over, didn't play this year and I don't think anyone is complaining that we got Jalen.

Enoch, Vance and MAL- concerning but no need to write the program off

Agreed on your first part -- some of those guys weren't good enough. Letting them go was the right decision, but why were they brought in in the first place?

Ali was absolutely not recruited over, that's such a ridiculous take. Ali blew up at an AAU event and decided he wanted a bigger stage. KO was left at the altar. The fact that we got Adams later was a consolation, but is largely unrelated.

The last 3 are worrisome. Either he's not bringing in the right guys, or he can't get them to stick around. I'd include Hamilton in that category as well, frankly.
 

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I'd include Hamilton in that category as well, frankly.

This is what I don't get: if you want to be a "blue blood," you need to be be bringing in "blue blood"-level prospects. You can't compete with the 5-star-loaded teams of Duke and UK without locking up whatever 5-star talent you can get your hands on. And in the AAC, one doesn't exactly have the pick of the litter when it comes to 5-stars unless you hire their father as an assistant.
 
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There are two players in the title of this thread whose departure bothered me outside of the initial emotional response. One of them, MAL, has never played a minute of college basketball. I recall reading back through the archives here and noticing that most people here were positively smitten with Larrier when we were recruiting him in HS. Now, in the other thread where you provided an analysis of KO's recruiting, you wrote him off after having a "mediocre freshman year."

The other, Vance, is a disappointment, but it had to happen given the issues with the father. This program cannot afford to allow the parent of a player to dictate the structure of the team and what individuals' roles are in the offense. If that's a demand that's being made, a coach cannot put up with that unless the player is quite literally Lonzo Ball. Additionally, this is something I had held off on mentioning out of a desire to be as respectful to Vance as possible on his way out; especially towards the end of the season, I noticed many occasions during the games where Vance was simply unsure of where he was supposed to be. I'm talking not knowing where to stand or move during offensive sets, forgetting he was responsible for throwing the ball in, not knowing his spot in the zone. It got to a point during the tournament where Vital, another freshman who came in ranked much lower than him, had to pull him aside a couple of times and tell him where he needed to be. Isn't one of your biggest indictments of KO his failure to field a team of players with the appropriate level of basketball IQ, especially as it related to the graduating seniors?

As a general note, I have seen you make many posts about how the players who transferred out after the 2015 and 2016 seasons were not UConn level recruits, and how shameful it was that KO brought such subpar talent into the program. As a result, when you try and spin these players' transfers as a failure in player retention on KO's part, I have trouble taking it seriously.

Prince Ali also should have caused some concern. That was a major blow, similar to MAL now. Vance was a talented player who was poised to get significant minutes, though I agree his dad is a pain in the ass and not something you want to deal with as a coach, and maybe the IQ was lacking.

It's not just the de-commits and transfers though (many of which, I agree, were guys who never should have been here to begin with, and those I do not take issue with), it's who he failed to land as well.

He missed initially on Purvis and Larrier, but got both after -- as I pointed out -- fairly mediocre years. That's an additional data point that should be weighed much more heavily than a guy's reputation in high school. Hence everyone on this board thinking highly of Vital after a solid freshman year here, despite a so-so high school reputation.

Missing on Diallo was a catastrophe as well. Ditto Diamond Stone, Jesse Govan, etc.
 
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This is what I don't get: if you want to be a "blue blood," you need to be be bringing in "blue blood"-level prospects. You can't compete with the 5-star-loaded teams of Duke and UK without locking up whatever 5-star talent you can get your hands on. And in the AAC, one doesn't exactly have the pick of the litter when it comes to 5-stars unless you hire their father as an assistant.

I don't disagree that you need to be bringing in highly ranked players like Hamilton.

The problem was, we got the guy who was a total wet blanket in the locker room and had no predilection to lead, or even to be here.

He went out as the least-accomplished early entrant in program history.

You have to go after and get the right guys. KO hasn't done that, plain and simple.
 
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I have heard rumblings about KO not being loved by the players. More than rumblings actually. I wonder what JC thinks about all of this.

Where did you hear this? We hear on the recruiting trail how every kid loves KO but I have to admit, the last couple years has given me the vibe that there be some issues there. JC was a madman, but the vast majority of players respected the hell out of him. I wonder if KO gives off one vibe recruiting and then another as coach? Just blindly speculating but it's clear that DHam left w/ some animosity, the transfers this year, and now MAL. Maybe the kids are not "UConn players" or maybe there is something else...
 

CTBasketball

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Where did you hear this? We hear on the recruiting trail how every kid loves KO but I have to admit, the last couple years has given me the vibe that there be some issues there. JC was a madman, but the vast majority of players respected the hell out of him. I wonder if KO gives off one vibe recruiting and then another as coach? Just blindly speculating but it's clear that DHam left w/ some animosity, the transfers this year, and now MAL. Maybe the kids are not "UConn players" or maybe there is something else...
He's right.
 

Stainmaster

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Prince Ali also should have caused some concern. That was a major blow, similar to MAL now. Vance was a talented player who was poised to get significant minutes, though I agree his dad is a pain in the ass and not something you want to deal with as a coach, and maybe the IQ was lacking.

Hindsight is 20/20, but Ali has not looked good at UCLA at all so far. The only two CBB players over the past few years I can think of who had to redshirt for non-medical reasons after their freshman year are Kelly Olynyk (not comparable in any other fashion) and Tulsa's T.K. Edogi (who actually lost his spot on the team for next year).

I was particularly bothered by the comments from the poster who had been in the gym with the dad at his HS games. I don't think UConn has ever had a parent come in like that from the start.

That's an additional data point that should be weighed much more heavily than a guy's reputation in high school.

So like I said above, if we're going with this line of thought, Ali isn't a miss then.

Missing on Diallo was a catastrophe as well. Ditto Diamond Stone, Jesse Govan, etc.

Diallo was a bad miss, but for different reasons. To finish in the top two in this conference, not have embarrassing regular season losses, and regularly make the tournament with a good chance at a trip to the second or third weekend, which is what I think is a good baseline for us as long as we are still in the AAC, we don't need Top 10-15 guys any more than Calhoun did. I mentioned in an earlier thread that Drummond, Ray, Charlie, Donyell, and maybe Kemba are the only comparably ranked players Calhoun got in his 26-year tenure here (and it might even be a reach to put Diallo on Drummond's level - wasn't he literally #2 in his class?).

It was a bad miss a) if you're a poster for whom the "blue blood" status symbol is important and wants to match up against Duke and Kentucky on the trail and on the court, and b) from the standpoint that in hindsight, the staff put too many eggs in one basket - David Beatty wanted to come here, Bruce Brown may have at one point...those are two players whom I would've loved to see in a UConn uniform.

Re. Stone, Govan, I'm not looking to hash out the same arguments about sanctions or KO simply not having the chops and closing ability in his fourth year of coaching that JC did after doing it since the seventies, since we are simply going to disagree there.
 
C

Chief00

I was criticized saying KO needs to counsel the players and give them some guidance not this take it or leave it approach - that's not going real well for us is it?
 

Stainmaster

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I don't disagree that you need to be bringing in highly ranked players like Hamilton.

The problem was, we got the guy who was a total wet blanket in the locker room and had no predilection to lead, or even to be here.

He went out as the least-accomplished early entrant in program history.

You have to go after and get the right guys. KO hasn't done that, plain and simple.

It makes me chuckle when people attack players' character on here...would you call him a "wet blanket" to his face?

Leadership often has nothing to do with ranking, or even skill on the court. Where was Drummond's leadership ability in '11-12? I seem to recall that the best leader on that roster when all was said and done was a non-Top 100 recruit whose commitment to UConn was met with scorn and derision. Lamb, our best player on that team, is probably the shyest, quietest dude to average 17 here. Does it suck that Hamilton wasn't able to lead as an underclassman and didn't have a personality that appeared conducive to that changing if he stuck around? Yes, but I in no way view that as an indictment on Ollie. I know you're probably thinking of "Well, we had KEA do it, why can't we find others to do the same thing?" KEAs don't grow on trees.

Also, to my earlier point; 5 star recruits don't come to this conference, plain and simple. We are not in a position where we can be picky with them depending on leadership and intangible qualities. I know you want both, but that's not feasible.
 

temery

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Turtle, Samuel, Cassell, and Lubin weren't good enough to play here, so no retaining "talent" wasn't an issue in their cases. In all cases it was a mutual decisions or UConn pushing them out.

Ali- was recruited over, didn't play this year and I don't think anyone is complaining that we got Jalen.

Enoch, Vance and MAL- concerning but no need to write the program off

You should post more often.
 
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Quick personal anecdote that some may find amusing, I remember playing pick-up at UConn with one of my buddies, and we had Samuel, Cassell and Lubin on our team. Game to 11 against a pretty average group of kids in my class.

We lost 11-5. Samuel and Lubin took every shot and shot maybe 20% combined.
 
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I was criticized saying KO needs to counsel the players and give them some guidance not this take it or leave it approach - that's not going real well for us is it?

It's a fair point Chief, one of the first times I've agreed with you! I'm not sure if it's guidance or not. But I really suspect that he gives off one vibe as a recruiter and a much different one as a coach. People do not respect people who seem "two-faced" especially when we're selling the "brotherhood" angle and then the coach rips you apart on the sidelines.
 

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