Any new rumors on the ACC invite?

[freescooter]

Hawk,

Let's not overstate the academics of the old Big East. I mean St Johns, Seton Hall? when the league was founded BC was essentially a mid-level school that attracted a student body that was mostly Catholic and largely from the New England region even more concentrated in Boston area. UCONN was a solid mid-level public university, Villanova was BC for the middle Atlantic, and Providence, Setron hall and St Johns were commuter schools for their local ares mostly. Only Georgetwon and to a degree Syracuse had anything like National reputations. That a number of the schools made major efforts to improve their academic standing (BC, Connecticut, Villanova) or benefitted indirectly from the efforts of others (PC became the alternative for better Catholic students when BC and non-big East member Holy Cross expanded their recruiting nationally for example) is an interesting sidelight, but St Johns remains largely a commuter school and Seton Hall accepts students who couldn't get into most of the better Big East schools if they donated a building. The Big East was founded as a basketball league among a group of northeastern schools that played pretty good basketball, in response to changes in the way teams were selected for the NCAA tournement. Nothing more. Academics had nothing to do with it. As for Louisville and Cincinatti, both have major law schools, well regarded medical schools, graduate programs that are highly respected, Cincy has a very well repected school of Fine Arts and is considered a Research 1 university by the Carnegie Foundation. Only Georgetown among the Catholic schools can touch Cincicnatti's overall academic status. Louisville probably isn't as good, but it is still a major public uniersity with a breadth that Seton Hall doesn't come close to meeting.

 

[RS9999X]

Not entirely incorrect but BC Law was always a top flight grad school. The Catholic Schools were always ranked higher on the humanities than the sciences which made sense until science became the new religion

 

[HuskyHawk]

Hawk,

Let's not overstate the academics of the old Big East. I mean St Johns, Seton Hall? when the league was founded BC was essentially a mid-level school that attracted a student body that was mostly Catholic and largely from the New England region even more concentrated in Boston area. UCONN was a solid mid-level public university, Villanova was BC for the middle Atlantic, and Providence, Setron hall and St Johns were commuter schools for their local ares mostly. Only Georgetwon and to a degree Syracuse had anything like National reputations. That a number of the schools made major efforts to improve their academic standing (BC, Connecticut, Villanova) or benefitted indirectly from the efforts of others (PC became the alternative for better Catholic students when BC and non-big East member Holy Cross expanded their recruiting nationally for example) is an interesting sidelight, but St Johns remains largely a commuter school and Seton Hall accepts students who couldn't get into most of the better Big East schools if they donated a building. The Big East was founded as a basketball league among a group of northeastern schools that played pretty good basketball, in response to changes in the way teams were selected for the NCAA tournement. Nothing more. Academics had nothing to do with it. As for Louisville and Cincinatti, both have major law schools, well regarded medical schools, graduate programs that are highly respected, Cincy has a very well repected school of Fine Arts and is considered a Research 1 university by the Carnegie Foundation. Only Georgetown among the Catholic schools can touch Cincicnatti's overall academic status. Louisville probably isn't as good, but it is still a major public uniersity with a breadth that Seton Hall doesn't come close to meeting.

I agree with all of this, although Georgetown clearly is head and shoulders above Cincy. Cincy and UCF are two schools that are better than their US News ranking suggests. I considered Cincy for law school. USNews has Cincy at #143. Georgetown is at #22. A ton of this is perception vs. reality. Georgetown helped the perceived status of the BE a lot. As pointed out by WestCoast, Navy and if they come are excellent, but in the configurations I'm seeing as likely, they are both out. SMU is solid. BYU is good if they come. Houston and Boise are pretty horrid. I'd prefer Tulsa and Tulane.

My point is simply that this conference, assuming the academies are out, will be perceived as a very weak conference academically. WestCoast may say "it's all about football". Clearly it has been. But it shouldn't be. I think, long term, UConn will be downgraded (in perception) by being in this league. To be clear, I think these rankings are partly BS, but they are very important to the schools. Perception is everything. We have no other option we can control, but I can't get excited about this conference. I'd be more excited if we dumped the BB only schools and went all in.

 

[upstater]

I agree with all of this, although Georgetown clearly is head and shoulders above Cincy. Cincy and UCF are two schools that are better than their US News ranking suggests. I considered Cincy for law school. USNews has Cincy at #143. Georgetown is at #22. A ton of this is perception vs. reality. Georgetown helped the perceived status of the BE a lot. As pointed out by WestCoast, Navy and if they come are excellent, but in the configurations I'm seeing as likely, they are both out. SMU is solid. BYU is good if they come. Houston and Boise are pretty horrid. I'd prefer Tulsa and Tulane.

My point is simply that this conference, assuming the academies are out, will be perceived as a very weak conference academically. WestCoast may say "it's all about football". Clearly it has been. But it shouldn't be. I think, long term, UConn will be downgraded (in perception) by being in this league. To be clear, I think these rankings are partly BS, but they are very important to the schools. Perception is everything. We have no other option we can control, but I can't get excited about this conference. I'd be more excited if we dumped the BB only schools and went all in.

Vanderbilt.
Rice.
How have they been impacted by conference affiliation?
Personally, I'd rather go to Houston than BYU for a degree, but that's another story.
Heck, even Notre Dame sounds like it will sign on for all sports.

 

[freescooter]

I can't get excited about this league either. But it has little to do with the quality of academics. I think Air force and Navy are actually excellent examples of how perception is different from reality. In fact, those schools provide a somewhat limited academic background. Not a lot of poetry majors coming out of Annapolis. In fact, I believe that everyone majors in some form of engineering. Excellent for what it is designed for, but hardly aimed at turning out mostly scholars and people who question the workings of the world. Not that they don't turn out both, but they have a very different aim for the most part. Beyond that, they currently attract a somewhat homogenius, at least as far as worldview, group of students. You are unlikely to meet too many liberals, for example, or even Democrats for that matter, among the student bodies. Indeed, that is such an issue that there are studies underway at at least Army and Navy to see how they can get more diverse views among their student bodies. Given the recent scandals over religous persecution at Air Force, I imagine they are doing the same thing.

 

[BlueMAB]

Nobody said there is one. But there are an awful lot folks saying, embrace it, it's wonderful, and better than the old BE. Nonsense.

On the field it's better, without a doubt. In terms of perception and prestige, probably not, but it's at least arguable. It's certainly not embarrasingly worse as if we were to add Umass, Temple, and Nova.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to knock something, it's fair to ask you to present an alternative. i.e., I mocked the excitement over Houston, SMU, and the mere suggestion of UMass. But I suggested we should be going after BYU, BSU, Navy, and Air Force. Look where we are today.

I'm not saying he or you should be "happy" about it, that's not my place, but it's the best possible outcome that actually has a realistic chance of happening. I only ask if you're going to on what we're doing, provide a better plan that is realistic, I don't think that's too much to ask. Don't say Maryland, BCU, Penn State, and Notre Dame. We're not getting ND, we're not getting any BCS programs. None. Considering all of the options, this is the best possible one. So why piss on it when we can't do any better?

 

[gars44]

I'm sorry I'm becoming a broken record here. Please understand, 95% of people don't pay any attention to football, at least not willingly. (i.e., my poor wife). They couldn't care less what conference Uconn is in for football. 95%. Uconn's perception to 95% of the population is as a real good public university, and Jim Calhoun, and Gino Auriemma. That is our perception. People on this board, including myself, are largely imbalanced. All the people on Scout and Rivals on a regular basis are unbalanced. Hawk, if you want to confine your statements about perception to the less than 5% of the population that spends inordinate amounts of time on internet sports boards, yes, you are right. Our perception among this eclectic sliver of humanity will be lessened by our inclusion in the new conference. 95%, however, couldn't care less about football, conference, sports, etc. It doesn't matter.

 

[HuskyHawk]

On the field it's better, without a doubt. In terms of perception and prestige, probably not, but it's at least arguable. It's certainly not embarrasingly worse as if we were to add Umass, Temple, and Nova.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to knock something, it's fair to ask you to present an alternative. i.e., I mocked the excitement over Houston, SMU, and the mere suggestion of UMass. But I suggested we should be going after BYU, BSU, Navy, and Air Force. Look where we are today.

I'm not saying he or you should be "happy" about it, that's not my place, but it's the best possible outcome that actually has a realistic chance of happening. I only ask if you're going to on what we're doing, provide a better plan that is realistic, I don't think that's too much to ask. Don't say Maryland, BCU, Penn State, and Notre Dame. We're not getting ND, we're not getting any BCS programs. None. Considering all of the options, this is the best possible one. So why piss on it when we can't do any better?

I'm not pissing on it. I'm reluctantly accepting it. I had my sights set higher (ACC or B1G) and I'm disappointed if this is where we really end up long term. I felt like UConn was at home in the old BE. I'm not really fond of the current oversized league, though it has great basketball programs. While I tend to root for the league to do well, I find that difficult with schools like USF and DePaul that are too disconnected from the original BE. These new schools are even more disconnected. There's no identity for the league. It's got both random dispersed FB only schools, and a bunch of Catholic BB only schools. It's two leagues. The BB league will be worse for adding UCF, SMU and Houston, though Houston may at least compete.

In a nutshell, they've bastardized the BE beyond recognition. I'd rather leave it behind to the Catholic schools. Break off and start a new league that can create its own identity. An East West all sports league with a new name. So here's the proposal.
East: UConn, RU, UCF, USF, Cincy, Louisville
West: Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Boise, BYU, UNLV

 

[ctchamps]

My thinking is if perception believes the academic achievement at UConn is based on what takes place at BS or UCF, the problem is less with UConn's association with those schools, but the superficialness of this perception. Certainly BE fans put down the academics of the SEC, but intelligent fans recognize the achievements of Vanderbilt and recognize the general impression has holes when details are examined.

I don't think there is need to be defensive about the NBE. It is designed with the singular purpose of keeping football relevant and trying to create the best revenue stream for athletics as possible.

 

[John Greene]

My thinking is if perception believes the academic achievement at UConn is based on what takes place at BS or UCF, the problem is less with UConn's association with those schools, but the superficialness of this perception. Certainly BE fans put down the academics of the SEC, but intelligent fans recognize the achievements of Vanderbilt and recognize the general impression has holes when details are examined.

I don't think there is need to be defensive about the NBE. It is designed with the singular purpose of keeping football relevant and trying to create the best revenue stream for athletics as possible.

What may be upsetting to many people is that the new set up will give lots of fans of other conferences the opportunity to say things about their comference that many on this board say about the SEC.

 

[upstater]

What may be upsetting to many people is that the new set up will give lots of fans of other conferences the opportunity to say things about their comference that many on this board say about the SEC.

Why take it personally?
UConn is a very highly ranked school.
Vanderbilt is no worse for the wear.
When the questionnaires go out to Presidents of universities, they are not going to even know what conference UConn is in. They are not aware of such affiliations. Their knowledge of different schools is almost totally based on their professional associations. These people go on long retreats with one another, and strategize with each other, not to mention their involvement with the Carnegie Foundation and the AAU.
One look at the USNews questionnaire sent out by the U Florida president shows that, beyond his own conference, he did not group schools together based on athletics. To the contrary, his rankings were crazy and all over the map.

 

[John Greene]

Why take it personally?
UConn is a very highly ranked school.
Vanderbilt is no worse for the wear.
When the questionnaires go out to Presidents of universities, they are not going to even know what conference UConn is in. They are not aware of such affiliations. Their knowledge of different schools is almost totally based on their professional associations. These people go on long retreats with one another, and strategize with each other, not to mention their involvement with the Carnegie Foundation and the AAU.
One look at the USNews questionnaire sent out by the U Florida president shows that, beyond his own conference, he did not group schools together based on athletics. To the contrary, his rankings were crazy and all over the map.

You are correct about Vandy. But, I bet that a lot of posters here would have a fit if UConn got to the same position in the new conference that Vandy holds in the SEC. Competing for football talent with schools that have lower academic standards is difficult. That is one of the reasons the ACC schools broke off from the old southern conference years ago. Also one of the reasons GT left the SEC for the ACC. (Just as a point of interest the Bama fight song includes a line about GT but nothing about Auburn).

 

[gars44]

Competing for football talent with schools that have lower academic standards is difficult.

This is definitely an issue. My feeling is that we should be more aggressive in recruiting. Great athletes should get a pass on the academics. Not a complete pass but a pass. They bring great value through their abilities, just like many other students. If you want all eggheads, root for MIT. College is more than just SAT scores. I said, not a complete pass but a pass. These kids need to be respected and they deserve to get an education. If they're trying, they should get a pass.

 

[ctchamps]

What may be upsetting to many people is that the new set up will give lots of fans of other conferences the opportunity to say things about their comference that many on this board say about the SEC.

We are judged by the company we keep and image is certainly important, rightfully or wrongly.

If people insist that an athletic alliance is also an academic alliance, then yes, they will examine the entire NBE group and come to the conclusion that the group is academically flawed. They will refuse to examine things critically with detailed analysis. Instead they will present simplistic views. Doing this in regards to UConn in this case would not only be wrong, but an oxymoron. Stating UConn cannot be academically proficient in the NBE is stating something in an unacademic way.

I think this is at the very heart of our feelings about Joe Paterno. Joe did a lot of good things for the university. And up until recently he was an icon. Now his image is destroyed because he has been judged guilty by society for not taking stronger action in dealing with Sandusky.

The world would be a lot healthier if we observe things on a case by case basis and not oversimplify things. Joe Paterno is human and thus by nature we had to know he did some good things and some bad things in the past. Had he never been elevated to icon status people would have been more likely to question his actions.

This begs an important question. Did Joe create the icon status or did his public supporters develop it? I think it's a little bit of both. Certainly he fostered it. But it was his supporters who put him on the pedestal.

I'm not weighing in on Joe's guilt or innocence in this post. I'm discussing the flaw we make in our need to create god's out of things that are inherently flawed. And too many of us have this need to focus on images. I think image without substance is dangerous.

 

[John Greene]

This is definitely an issue. My feeling is that we should be more aggressive in recruiting. Great athletes should get a pass on the academics. Not a complete pass but a pass. They bring great value through their abilities, just like many other students. If you want all eggheads, root for MIT. College is more than just SAT scores. I said, not a complete pass but a pass. These kids need to be respected and they deserve to get an education. If they're trying, they should get a pass.

From your mouth to the new Prez's ear?

 

[Hoophound]

This is definitely an issue. My feeling is that we should be more aggressive in recruiting. Great athletes should get a pass on the academics. Not a complete pass but a pass. They bring great value through their abilities, just like many other students. If you want all eggheads, root for MIT. College is more than just SAT scores. I said, not a complete pass but a pass. These kids need to be respected and they deserve to get an education. If they're trying, they should get a pass.

I've always felt that we should make entry easier for athletes, but then hold them to decent standards when they get here. Basically, "look, we'll let him in and we'll give you lots of academic support, but if the kid can't do the work with all that extra help, he isn't going to be able to stay".

This would allow us to catch up faster in the BCS ranks and would grow the brand and fan base with better football. Boise has built their program on players that wouldn't make the cut academically many places. They keep most of those kids in school. I'm not syaing we should cheat or take anyone that can play, but if you want to play with the big boys, you atleast have to play like the big boys. There are only so many programs outside the top 10-15 or so that can bring in serious talent without making some concessions.

 

[BlueMAB]

I'm not pissing on it.

Rumrunner was, and that's who I was responding to. You stepped in and responded for him, but my post and opinions were not meant for you.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I've always felt that we should make entry easier for athletes, but then hold them to decent standards when they get here. Basically, "look, we'll let him in and we'll give you lots of academic support, but if the kid can't do the work with all that extra help, he isn't going to be able to stay".

This would allow us to catch up faster in the BCS ranks and would grow the brand and fan base with better football. Boise has built their program on players that wouldn't make the cut academically many places. They keep most of those kids in school. I'm not syaing we should cheat or take anyone that can play, but if you want to play with the big boys, you atleast have to play like the big boys. There are only so many programs outside the top 10-15 or so that can bring in serious talent without making some concessions.

Here we begin to see divergent perspectives. If UConn could be Vanderbilt or Boise, which would you choose? I'd be happy to be considered with Vanderbilt, or Duke, or Northwestern. The reality is that the academic stats for our football team have been quite good. I'd like to see it stay that way. I would be very disappointed if they sacrificed that for football success. You can do it the right way. More than other sports, elite performance in football, outside of a few positions, requires intelligence. The team with the best athletes doesn't always win.

 

[gars44]

Here we begin to see divergent perspectives. If UConn could be Vanderbilt or Boise, which would you choose? I'd be happy to be considered with Vanderbilt, or Duke, or Northwestern. The reality is that the academic stats for our football team have been quite good. I'd like to see it stay that way. I would be very disappointed if they sacrificed that for football success. You can do it the right way. More than other sports, elite performance in football, outside of a few positions, requires intelligence. The team with the best athletes doesn't always win.

Call me divergent. Vanderbilt, Duke or Northwestern? They're not doing it the right way. They're not doing it all. They were grandfathered in to their respective conferences. If they were just a start up program, like us, they would be in the same situation as us. No one would want them. Imagine Carnegie Mellon starting a football program right now, or the Univ. of Chicago. Do you think they'd be invited to the B1G?

You know, we would all like to revisit some of our decision-making of our teens, I'm sure. I think it might have been better if I listened to my mother and became a neurosurgeon, like she wanted. You may wish that you went to a more elite institution of higher learning. I guess, I do too. But, and there's always a but, it is what it is. You and me, we made that bed a long time ago.

I would rather see us like Uconn basketball. I would rather talk about things grounded in reality. Jim Calhoun has a lot of problems, no doubt. He plays in the big boy league, with a lot of bad boys. He ain't no Vanderbilt, Duke or Northwestern. He's a lot more like Boise State than those other three. I respect the guy a lot. He brought this program out of nowhere fast. Count me in with Boise State. Can you imagine if we had a program like that? With everything else this state and school brings to the table? We'd be in the B1G next year. The only thing holding us back is our non-competitive football. The lack of a football brand. If we remain at Vanderbilt, Duke or Northwestern levels of football, we might as well just hang it up right now. Those schools were grandfathered in. No one would want them otherwise. If they were just starting a football program, like us, they would be in the same situation as us. Hello. This is about football.

 

[gars44]

There are only so many programs outside the top 10-15 or so that can bring in serious talent without making some concessions.

Hoop, that's the rub. I don't think there are anywhere near that many. Who? Stanford? They come to mind. Who else is a top flight program that doesn't have a scandal or two in their past? These are programs that live at the edge, and often step over. I think the top 10-15 are there because they dwell on the edge and are not afraid of the consequences. They play with fire on a regular basis. Sometimes they get burned.

 

[huskyjawz]

(Just as a point of interest the Bama fight song includes a line about GT but nothing about Auburn).[/quote]

very interesting, and hard to believe.

 

[huskyjawz]

Call me divergent. Vanderbilt, Duke or Northwestern? They're not doing it the right way. They're not doing it all. They were grandfathered in to their respective conferences. If they were just a start up program, like us, they would be in the same situation as us. No one would want them. Imagine Carnegie Mellon starting a football program right now, or the Univ. of Chicago. Do you think they'd be invited to the B1G?

You know, we would all like to revisit some of our decision-making of our teens, I'm sure. I think it might have been better if I listened to my mother and became a neurosurgeon, like she wanted. You may wish that you went to a more elite institution of higher learning. I guess, I do too. But, and there's always a but, it is what it is. You and me, we made that bed a long time ago.

I would rather see us like Uconn basketball. I would rather talk about things grounded in reality. Jim Calhoun has a lot of problems, no doubt. He plays in the big boy league, with a lot of bad boys. He ain't no Vanderbilt, Duke or Northwestern. He's a lot more like Boise State than those other three. I respect the guy a lot. He brought this program out of nowhere fast. Count me in with Boise State. Can you imagine if we had a program like that? With everything else this state and school brings to the table? We'd be in the B1G next year. The only thing holding us back is our non-competitive football. The lack of a football brand. If we remain at Vanderbilt, Duke or Northwestern levels of football, we might as well just hang it up right now. Those schools were grandfathered in. No one would want them otherwise. If they were just starting a football program, like us, they would be in the same situation as us. Hello. This is about football.

i don't think anyone is suggesting we aspire to be vandy/duke/nw in football. the point is that it's possible to excel academically even if you are in a conference with lesser academic institutions.

 

[Hoophound]

Hoop, that's the rub. I don't think there are anywhere near that many. Who? Stanford? They come to mind. Who else is a top flight program that doesn't have a scandal or two in their past? These are programs that live at the edge, and often step over. I think the top 10-15 are there because they dwell on the edge and are not afraid of the consequences. They play with fire on a regular basis. Sometimes they get burned.

Yea, I don't either. I count about 7 (UF, ND, USC, TX, tOSU, Bama, LSU) but I didn't feel like getting into a debate about who should be on my list.

 

[UCHuskies08]

Here we begin to see divergent perspectives. If UConn could be Vanderbilt or Boise, which would you choose? I'd be happy to be considered with Vanderbilt, or Duke, or Northwestern. The reality is that the academic stats for our football team have been quite good. I'd like to see it stay that way. I would be very disappointed if they sacrificed that for football success. You can do it the right way. More than other sports, elite performance in football, outside of a few positions, requires intelligence. The team with the best athletes doesn't always win.

Maybe just me, but I don't give a shit what Moe Petrus gets in COMM101 or what Johnny Mac gets in HIST207, as long as they're eligible on Saturdays

 

[Sky ball]

I propose that the UConn trustees immediately approve a new name for the university. The University of Far Northern Georgia at Storrs. Plant some hedges at the Rent (renamed "The Love Shack"). We've already got a dog. Then play up our key in-state rivalry with UGA, and a new annual neutral site game with Florida at the Citrus Bowl around Christmas, since half of Connecticut (I mean the state of Far North Georgia) is in Orlando then anyway. Our SEC invite would be in the mail. Just fire up some B-52s tunes and wait.

HH,

The move should be to Northeast Tennessee as it was once, for a short time in 1784, the State of Franklin. They actually elected a govenor and legislature but a small war with Tennessee squashed the movement. Therfore the new name would be The University of Franklin or Franklin State University. This keeps us as the flagship school and not a directional or #2 in a state.

 

[John Greene]

(Just as a point of interest the Bama fight song includes a line about GT but nothing about Auburn).

very interesting, and hard to believe.[/quote]
It is for most people. The line is "Send the Yellowjackets to a watery grave". Before GT left for the ACC the GT/UA rivalary was second only to the TN/UA rivalry in the minds of many older Bama fans. UA and AU did not play each other from 1907 to 1948 for various reasons.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Maybe just me, but I don't give a **** what Moe Petrus gets in COMM101 or what Johnny Mac gets in HIST207, as long as they're eligible on Saturdays

You're not alone, but I suspect some of us are fans of the university generally more than the football team. I'm excited about Soccer getting a #3 seed. Don Donigan was the BMOC in my day (now the coach at RU). It may depend in part on whether you have a UConn degree or not. My degree has gone up in value since '88. I don't really want it to head in the opposite direction. I would much prefer that UConn was a top academic school, with a great basketball team and a mediocre football team, than a UConn with mediocre academics and a great football team. I don't need them to be LSU. There are a lot of schools that pull this off, but I think it makes your success more variable year to year.

 

[husky10]

The service academies are some of the most prestigious schools in the country the schools that we are looking to bring in are not all bad academically.