Any new rumors on the ACC invite?

[HuskyHawk]

The alternative to these schools at this point is what, exactly?

Nobody said there is one. But there are an awful lot folks saying, embrace it, it's wonderful, and better than the old BE. Nonsense.

Displaying current Sagarins or whatever is pointless. Rumrunner described the problem, although to be fair, Louisville and Cincy share it. I think those two DO fit in this conference, as does USF. By the way, UCF is fairly selective and is decent academically, but still trails the big two in Florida and always will.

By way of response the UCal schools are all top tier. But San Jose St, Fresno, San Diego st. etc. are next tier. As for any school with "State Name State", those are almost always a half notch below "University of State" schools. Michigan trumps Mich State, which trumps Western Michigan. Kansas trumps K State, which trumps Wichita State. Ohio State and Penn State are the exceptions, as U Penn and Ohio U are private. Does Central CT get the same state funding and investment as UConn?

 

[upstater]

Provo, San Diego,& Vegas would all rank high on anyones list. Dallas & Houston, not so much for me. Been there too often, Boise? not sure I ever want to go. But that seems beside the point as far as I am concerned. In each case except for BYU and maybe Boise we are partnering with a distant second or third at best. This is what makes me unsettled. Where you see lots of potential I see lots of questions. It may just be age, who knows?

Provo?

 

[scdono]

Houston is at best the fifth school athletically in the state of Texas. To boot it is a low-quality academic institution. In fact, it will be the WORST academic institution in all of AQ land. It is a commuter school. To think that long-term these attributes will not impact Houston's ceiling is idiotic.

UCF is the same as USF. USF is still a distant fourth in the state of Florida. As an aside, guess the attendance at USF's opening men's basketball game.

UCF will likely be hit with loss of institutional control. So for the next five years, watch UCF football sink lower. As for UCF basketball, see USF.

Is it more likely that the Big East brand is exported successfully to Houston, UCF and SMU, or will their mediocrity be merely imported into the Big East? DePaul is in the third largest city in the country, surrounded by fertile recruits. How has that worked out?

By the way, USF's announced attendance was 2,700 for their opener. There were fewer than 700 actually in attendance.

This hodge podge disparate group of schools is only a quick fix band aid.

Geographically it makes no sense. The institutions make no sense (Boise,Houston,UCF,USF academically putrid, urban commuter schools - oh joy.)

The Big East is one homely pig. The bright red lipstick smeared across its thin lips hasn't changed that.

Rumrunner:

I read your narrative each day and wonder if you live in another universe? Are you really a Big East/UConn fan? Yes, the situation is dire but as a UConn fan who wants to see a relevant football program, we need to keep the BCS AQ status. You apparently don't get this. I think you're really a Big 12 troll creating negative comments.

 

[gars44]

Nobody said there is one. But there are an awful lot folks saying, embrace it, it's wonderful, and better than the old BE. Nonsense.

Displaying current Sagarins or whatever is pointless. Rumrunner described the problem, although to be fair, Louisville and Cincy share it. I think those two DO fit in this conference, as does USF. By the way, UCF is fairly selective and is decent academically, but still trails the big two in Florida and always will.

By way of response the UCal schools are all top tier. But San Jose St, Fresno, San Diego st. etc. are next tier. As for any school with "State Name State", those are almost always a half notch below "University of State" schools. Michigan trumps Mich State, which trumps Western Michigan. Kansas trumps K State, which trumps Wichita State. Ohio State and Penn State are the exceptions, as U Penn and Ohio U are private. Does Central CT get the same state funding and investment as UConn?

I just don't get all the academic nonsense. Academically, I'll bet you absolutely have no discourse or relationship with what should we call them (?) fans? supporters? followers ? of St. Johns or Georgetown or Villanova basketball. Or fans of Louisville, or Rutgers or Syracuse football. I mean, is there really some association between football fans of different schools (not including Yale and Harvard) that makes some relevant difference in people's lives? I'm not at all being sarcastic, and I'm not trying to play dumb, but I really don't get the significance of Houston being a "commuter" school, or anything else for that matter.

My point is this. Uconn is not a desirable football program. We are a new entrant into big time college football. We were given a huge bone in the Big East. So huge, that most of the established programs did not at the time, and still do not, consider us worthy of playing in their league. Fact. And so they all bail whenever possible. We are forming a conference with similarly situated entities from a football vantage. Perhaps not an academic vantage.

But what does that matter?

I guess I feel for those who consider academics such an important factor in who is in their football league, and I can't help but think they wish for something that simply is not. Uconn did not have an established football program when you applied, and that was not an important factor at the time. Now we are trying to establish that program. We need to be in a conference that has some draw to potential recruits and fans. That is what is important. We can't compete for recruits in the ACC. I should say, we can probably compete with BC and Syracuse and Pitt. That's not where I want this program to be.

 

[gars44]

I agree with you. I see a disaster of a conferene. Time zones don't matter? To whom? I'm sure as hell not going to be happy about games starting at 9 or 10 PM. I also find the schools to be unexciting. Houston has a good squad right now, and probably won't next year. Boise is very good, but hasn't done it against good competition. SMU has some former glory. UCF has new scandals/violations.

As I said before, any public school with either a geographic indicator or a city in the name is automatically second tier. Louisville is 2nd tier to Kentucky. Cincy 2nd tier to OSU. Boise St. is second tier to Idaho, although not on the football field. USF and UCF are second tier to UF and FSU. Houston is third tier compared to UT or A&M, and second tier to schools like Baylor and TCU.

So this conference presents with two flagship state universities, UConn and Rutgers, plus a solid private university in SMU. We're stranded on the island of misfit toys.

What schools do you find "exciting?" Uconn basketball was never exciting, until we became exciting. (genuflection to my hero, JC). Exciting is winning. But to my question, who is exciting in your book?

 

[upstater]

I just don't get all the academic nonsense. Academically, I'll bet you absolutely have no discourse or relationship with what should we call them (?) fans? supporters? followers ? of St. Johns or Georgetown or Villanova basketball. Or fans of Louisville, or Rutgers or Syracuse football. I mean, is there really some association between football fans of different schools (not including Yale and Harvard) that makes some relevant difference in people's lives? I'm not at all being sarcastic, and I'm not trying to play dumb, but I really don't get the significance of Houston being a "commuter" school, or anything else for that matter.

My point is this. Uconn is not a desirable football program. We are a new entrant into big time college football. We were given a huge bone in the Big East. So huge, that most of the established programs did not at the time, and still do not, consider us worthy of playing in their league. Fact. And so they all bail whenever possible. We are forming a conference with similarly situated entities from a football vantage. Perhaps not an academic vantage.

But what does that matter?

I guess I feel for those who consider academics such an important factor in who is in their football league, and I can't help but think they wish for something that simply is not. Uconn did not have an established football program when you applied, and that was not an important factor at the time. Now we are trying to establish that program. We need to be in a conference that has some draw to potential recruits and fans. That is what is important. We can't compete for recruits in the ACC. I should say, we can probably compete with BC and Syracuse and Pitt. That's not where I want this program to be.

I don't understand the academics argument at all. It's totally irrelevant. Given the state of higher education today, commuter schools aren't a bad thing. in fact, U Miami is a commuter school as well if you look at the demographics. I know many of the SUNYs and Cals are as well. There is nothing wrong with being a commuter school these days.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

The Tar Heels probably wouldn't because of the optics of it. The NC St. Wolfpack would have to realize that it was a once in a lifetime chance to get out of UNC's shadow and would probably take it. UVA and VTech are harder to predict, I think both would be tempted to take the invite. UVA has not been very relevant in the ACC's recent history though so I think they'd be tempted to join a league with most of the other state flagship schools of the south.

Common logic would dictate that NC St would want to make the jump to the SEC. It would give them a clear advantange in football over all other original ACC members and it could give them an environment where they could legitimately rebuild their basketball program.

I don't know what the decision makers at NC St believe but a large portion of their fan base is still delusional to the point where they believe they can regain their rightful position as the top program on tobacco road (something they haven't enjoyed since the last few years of the southern conference).

 

[HuskyHawk]

What schools do you find "exciting?" Uconn basketball was never exciting, until we became exciting. (genuflection to my hero, JC). Exciting is winning. But to my question, who is exciting in your book?

We simply perceive conferences differently. I see them as associations of universities, an association which in part, ascribes certain qualities to each participating school (apart from sports). The Ivy league is just an athletic conference at its most simple, and yet when people say "Ivy League School" nobody thinks of sports. Big Ten brings up connotations of strong traditions, solid academics and research credentials, and very good athletics. The Big East has mostly garnered a reputation for outstanding basketball, as played by northeastern universities that have solid academics and were mostly private and/or Catholic. That academic reputation took a hit when WVU, USF, Louisville and Cincinnati were added and BC left. It would be utterly demolished by the new league. I am concerned about the kind of reputation and image the new league would project.

I like UConn hoops more than football. I care more about the university itself than I do about our football success. As such, I want the university (not the football team) to find a home in an all-sports conference that projects the image UConn is trying to cultivate. As I said, barring an invite from B1G or ACC, I don't see it how we pull that off. So I'm resigned to this fate. But that doesn't mean I need to be excited about playing in a conference that I think will project a negative image on its members, as a sad-sack collection of mediocre to poor schools that nobody else wanted. No amount of success on the football field will change that.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

But that doesn't mean I need to be excited about playing in a conference that I think will project a negative image on its members, as a sad-sack collection of mediocre to poor schools that nobody else wanted. No amount of success on the football field will change that.

So it's official. The new conference should be called the Sad Sack Conference. That has a cool ring to it.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

We simply perceive conferences differently. I see them as associations of universities, an association which in part, ascribes certain qualities to each participating school (apart from sports). The Ivy league is just an athletic conference at its most simple, and yet when people say "Ivy League School" nobody thinks of sports. Big Ten brings up connotations of strong traditions, solid academics and research credentials, and very good athletics. The Big East has mostly garnered a reputation for outstanding basketball, as played by northeastern universities that have solid academics and were mostly private and/or Catholic. That academic reputation took a hit when WVU, USF, Louisville and Cincinnati were added and BC left. It would be utterly demolished by the new league. I am concerned about the kind of reputation and image the new league would project.

I like UConn hoops more than football. I care more about the university itself than I do about our football success. As such, I want the university (not the football team) to find a home in an all-sports conference that projects the image UConn is trying to cultivate. As I said, barring an invite from B1G or ACC, I don't see it how we pull that off. So I'm resigned to this fate. But that doesn't mean I need to be excited about playing in a conference that I think will project a negative image on its members, as a sad-sack collection of mediocre to poor schools that nobody else wanted. No amount of success on the football field will change that.

Dude, you seriously need to face reality. It is all about football right now and nothing else. It is also about TV markets. I do believe other stuff takes a backseat to football. It would be nice to get into a conference with all similar schools, but reality is it is totally out of UCONN's control. UCONN football is not in any position right now to dictate anything. In the long run, perhaps but not right now.

I look at all the new schools like growth stocks. They all got potential to be huge with a BCS label. Traditions and winning can be achieved over time. Boise is living proof of that.

These new schools bring excellent academics: BYU, SMU, Air Force, Navy
These news schools bring questionable academics: Boise, Houston and UCF

It is not the ideal situation, but UCONN will be in a league with schools that are looking to grow their football programs. We don't have some 800 lb gorilla in the league that overshadows everyone. UCONN will get a chance to compete and earn some nice TV $$$$$. At end of the day, it will keep UCONN on the national stage until the next realignment hits. That's all we can ask for right now.

 

[freescooter]

Hawk,

Let's not overstate the academics of the old Big East. I mean St Johns, Seton Hall? when the league was founded BC was essentially a mid-level school that attracted a student body that was mostly Catholic and largely from the New England region even more concentrated in Boston area. UCONN was a solid mid-level public university, Villanova was BC for the middle Atlantic, and Providence, Setron hall and St Johns were commuter schools for their local ares mostly. Only Georgetwon and to a degree Syracuse had anything like National reputations. That a number of the schools made major efforts to improve their academic standing (BC, Connecticut, Villanova) or benefitted indirectly from the efforts of others (PC became the alternative for better Catholic students when BC and non-big East member Holy Cross expanded their recruiting nationally for example) is an interesting sidelight, but St Johns remains largely a commuter school and Seton Hall accepts students who couldn't get into most of the better Big East schools if they donated a building. The Big East was founded as a basketball league among a group of northeastern schools that played pretty good basketball, in response to changes in the way teams were selected for the NCAA tournement. Nothing more. Academics had nothing to do with it. As for Louisville and Cincinatti, both have major law schools, well regarded medical schools, graduate programs that are highly respected, Cincy has a very well repected school of Fine Arts and is considered a Research 1 university by the Carnegie Foundation. Only Georgetown among the Catholic schools can touch Cincicnatti's overall academic status. Louisville probably isn't as good, but it is still a major public uniersity with a breadth that Seton Hall doesn't come close to meeting.

 

[RS9999X]

Not entirely incorrect but BC Law was always a top flight grad school. The Catholic Schools were always ranked higher on the humanities than the sciences which made sense until science became the new religion

 

[HuskyHawk]

Hawk,

Let's not overstate the academics of the old Big East. I mean St Johns, Seton Hall? when the league was founded BC was essentially a mid-level school that attracted a student body that was mostly Catholic and largely from the New England region even more concentrated in Boston area. UCONN was a solid mid-level public university, Villanova was BC for the middle Atlantic, and Providence, Setron hall and St Johns were commuter schools for their local ares mostly. Only Georgetwon and to a degree Syracuse had anything like National reputations. That a number of the schools made major efforts to improve their academic standing (BC, Connecticut, Villanova) or benefitted indirectly from the efforts of others (PC became the alternative for better Catholic students when BC and non-big East member Holy Cross expanded their recruiting nationally for example) is an interesting sidelight, but St Johns remains largely a commuter school and Seton Hall accepts students who couldn't get into most of the better Big East schools if they donated a building. The Big East was founded as a basketball league among a group of northeastern schools that played pretty good basketball, in response to changes in the way teams were selected for the NCAA tournement. Nothing more. Academics had nothing to do with it. As for Louisville and Cincinatti, both have major law schools, well regarded medical schools, graduate programs that are highly respected, Cincy has a very well repected school of Fine Arts and is considered a Research 1 university by the Carnegie Foundation. Only Georgetown among the Catholic schools can touch Cincicnatti's overall academic status. Louisville probably isn't as good, but it is still a major public uniersity with a breadth that Seton Hall doesn't come close to meeting.

I agree with all of this, although Georgetown clearly is head and shoulders above Cincy. Cincy and UCF are two schools that are better than their US News ranking suggests. I considered Cincy for law school. USNews has Cincy at #143. Georgetown is at #22. A ton of this is perception vs. reality. Georgetown helped the perceived status of the BE a lot. As pointed out by WestCoast, Navy and if they come are excellent, but in the configurations I'm seeing as likely, they are both out. SMU is solid. BYU is good if they come. Houston and Boise are pretty horrid. I'd prefer Tulsa and Tulane.

My point is simply that this conference, assuming the academies are out, will be perceived as a very weak conference academically. WestCoast may say "it's all about football". Clearly it has been. But it shouldn't be. I think, long term, UConn will be downgraded (in perception) by being in this league. To be clear, I think these rankings are partly BS, but they are very important to the schools. Perception is everything. We have no other option we can control, but I can't get excited about this conference. I'd be more excited if we dumped the BB only schools and went all in.

 

[upstater]

I agree with all of this, although Georgetown clearly is head and shoulders above Cincy. Cincy and UCF are two schools that are better than their US News ranking suggests. I considered Cincy for law school. USNews has Cincy at #143. Georgetown is at #22. A ton of this is perception vs. reality. Georgetown helped the perceived status of the BE a lot. As pointed out by WestCoast, Navy and if they come are excellent, but in the configurations I'm seeing as likely, they are both out. SMU is solid. BYU is good if they come. Houston and Boise are pretty horrid. I'd prefer Tulsa and Tulane.

My point is simply that this conference, assuming the academies are out, will be perceived as a very weak conference academically. WestCoast may say "it's all about football". Clearly it has been. But it shouldn't be. I think, long term, UConn will be downgraded (in perception) by being in this league. To be clear, I think these rankings are partly BS, but they are very important to the schools. Perception is everything. We have no other option we can control, but I can't get excited about this conference. I'd be more excited if we dumped the BB only schools and went all in.

Vanderbilt.
Rice.
How have they been impacted by conference affiliation?
Personally, I'd rather go to Houston than BYU for a degree, but that's another story.
Heck, even Notre Dame sounds like it will sign on for all sports.

 

[freescooter]

I can't get excited about this league either. But it has little to do with the quality of academics. I think Air force and Navy are actually excellent examples of how perception is different from reality. In fact, those schools provide a somewhat limited academic background. Not a lot of poetry majors coming out of Annapolis. In fact, I believe that everyone majors in some form of engineering. Excellent for what it is designed for, but hardly aimed at turning out mostly scholars and people who question the workings of the world. Not that they don't turn out both, but they have a very different aim for the most part. Beyond that, they currently attract a somewhat homogenius, at least as far as worldview, group of students. You are unlikely to meet too many liberals, for example, or even Democrats for that matter, among the student bodies. Indeed, that is such an issue that there are studies underway at at least Army and Navy to see how they can get more diverse views among their student bodies. Given the recent scandals over religous persecution at Air Force, I imagine they are doing the same thing.

 

[gars44]

I'm sorry I'm becoming a broken record here. Please understand, 95% of people don't pay any attention to football, at least not willingly. (i.e., my poor wife). They couldn't care less what conference Uconn is in for football. 95%. Uconn's perception to 95% of the population is as a real good public university, and Jim Calhoun, and Gino Auriemma. That is our perception. People on this board, including myself, are largely imbalanced. All the people on Scout and Rivals on a regular basis are unbalanced. Hawk, if you want to confine your statements about perception to the less than 5% of the population that spends inordinate amounts of time on internet sports boards, yes, you are right. Our perception among this eclectic sliver of humanity will be lessened by our inclusion in the new conference. 95%, however, couldn't care less about football, conference, sports, etc. It doesn't matter.

 

[HuskyHawk]

On the field it's better, without a doubt. In terms of perception and prestige, probably not, but it's at least arguable. It's certainly not embarrasingly worse as if we were to add Umass, Temple, and Nova.

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to knock something, it's fair to ask you to present an alternative. i.e., I mocked the excitement over Houston, SMU, and the mere suggestion of UMass. But I suggested we should be going after BYU, BSU, Navy, and Air Force. Look where we are today.

I'm not saying he or you should be "happy" about it, that's not my place, but it's the best possible outcome that actually has a realistic chance of happening. I only ask if you're going to on what we're doing, provide a better plan that is realistic, I don't think that's too much to ask. Don't say Maryland, BCU, Penn State, and Notre Dame. We're not getting ND, we're not getting any BCS programs. None. Considering all of the options, this is the best possible one. So why piss on it when we can't do any better?

I'm not pissing on it. I'm reluctantly accepting it. I had my sights set higher (ACC or B1G) and I'm disappointed if this is where we really end up long term. I felt like UConn was at home in the old BE. I'm not really fond of the current oversized league, though it has great basketball programs. While I tend to root for the league to do well, I find that difficult with schools like USF and DePaul that are too disconnected from the original BE. These new schools are even more disconnected. There's no identity for the league. It's got both random dispersed FB only schools, and a bunch of Catholic BB only schools. It's two leagues. The BB league will be worse for adding UCF, SMU and Houston, though Houston may at least compete.

In a nutshell, they've bastardized the BE beyond recognition. I'd rather leave it behind to the Catholic schools. Break off and start a new league that can create its own identity. An East West all sports league with a new name. So here's the proposal.
East: UConn, RU, UCF, USF, Cincy, Louisville
West: Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Boise, BYU, UNLV

 

[ctchamps]

My thinking is if perception believes the academic achievement at UConn is based on what takes place at BS or UCF, the problem is less with UConn's association with those schools, but the superficialness of this perception. Certainly BE fans put down the academics of the SEC, but intelligent fans recognize the achievements of Vanderbilt and recognize the general impression has holes when details are examined.

I don't think there is need to be defensive about the NBE. It is designed with the singular purpose of keeping football relevant and trying to create the best revenue stream for athletics as possible.

 

[John Greene]

My thinking is if perception believes the academic achievement at UConn is based on what takes place at BS or UCF, the problem is less with UConn's association with those schools, but the superficialness of this perception. Certainly BE fans put down the academics of the SEC, but intelligent fans recognize the achievements of Vanderbilt and recognize the general impression has holes when details are examined.

I don't think there is need to be defensive about the NBE. It is designed with the singular purpose of keeping football relevant and trying to create the best revenue stream for athletics as possible.

What may be upsetting to many people is that the new set up will give lots of fans of other conferences the opportunity to say things about their comference that many on this board say about the SEC.

 

[upstater]

What may be upsetting to many people is that the new set up will give lots of fans of other conferences the opportunity to say things about their comference that many on this board say about the SEC.

Why take it personally?
UConn is a very highly ranked school.
Vanderbilt is no worse for the wear.
When the questionnaires go out to Presidents of universities, they are not going to even know what conference UConn is in. They are not aware of such affiliations. Their knowledge of different schools is almost totally based on their professional associations. These people go on long retreats with one another, and strategize with each other, not to mention their involvement with the Carnegie Foundation and the AAU.
One look at the USNews questionnaire sent out by the U Florida president shows that, beyond his own conference, he did not group schools together based on athletics. To the contrary, his rankings were crazy and all over the map.

 

[John Greene]

Why take it personally?
UConn is a very highly ranked school.
Vanderbilt is no worse for the wear.
When the questionnaires go out to Presidents of universities, they are not going to even know what conference UConn is in. They are not aware of such affiliations. Their knowledge of different schools is almost totally based on their professional associations. These people go on long retreats with one another, and strategize with each other, not to mention their involvement with the Carnegie Foundation and the AAU.
One look at the USNews questionnaire sent out by the U Florida president shows that, beyond his own conference, he did not group schools together based on athletics. To the contrary, his rankings were crazy and all over the map.

You are correct about Vandy. But, I bet that a lot of posters here would have a fit if UConn got to the same position in the new conference that Vandy holds in the SEC. Competing for football talent with schools that have lower academic standards is difficult. That is one of the reasons the ACC schools broke off from the old southern conference years ago. Also one of the reasons GT left the SEC for the ACC. (Just as a point of interest the Bama fight song includes a line about GT but nothing about Auburn).

 

[gars44]

Competing for football talent with schools that have lower academic standards is difficult.

This is definitely an issue. My feeling is that we should be more aggressive in recruiting. Great athletes should get a pass on the academics. Not a complete pass but a pass. They bring great value through their abilities, just like many other students. If you want all eggheads, root for MIT. College is more than just SAT scores. I said, not a complete pass but a pass. These kids need to be respected and they deserve to get an education. If they're trying, they should get a pass.

 

[ctchamps]

What may be upsetting to many people is that the new set up will give lots of fans of other conferences the opportunity to say things about their comference that many on this board say about the SEC.

We are judged by the company we keep and image is certainly important, rightfully or wrongly.

If people insist that an athletic alliance is also an academic alliance, then yes, they will examine the entire NBE group and come to the conclusion that the group is academically flawed. They will refuse to examine things critically with detailed analysis. Instead they will present simplistic views. Doing this in regards to UConn in this case would not only be wrong, but an oxymoron. Stating UConn cannot be academically proficient in the NBE is stating something in an unacademic way.

I think this is at the very heart of our feelings about Joe Paterno. Joe did a lot of good things for the university. And up until recently he was an icon. Now his image is destroyed because he has been judged guilty by society for not taking stronger action in dealing with Sandusky.

The world would be a lot healthier if we observe things on a case by case basis and not oversimplify things. Joe Paterno is human and thus by nature we had to know he did some good things and some bad things in the past. Had he never been elevated to icon status people would have been more likely to question his actions.

This begs an important question. Did Joe create the icon status or did his public supporters develop it? I think it's a little bit of both. Certainly he fostered it. But it was his supporters who put him on the pedestal.

I'm not weighing in on Joe's guilt or innocence in this post. I'm discussing the flaw we make in our need to create god's out of things that are inherently flawed. And too many of us have this need to focus on images. I think image without substance is dangerous.

 

[John Greene]

This is definitely an issue. My feeling is that we should be more aggressive in recruiting. Great athletes should get a pass on the academics. Not a complete pass but a pass. They bring great value through their abilities, just like many other students. If you want all eggheads, root for MIT. College is more than just SAT scores. I said, not a complete pass but a pass. These kids need to be respected and they deserve to get an education. If they're trying, they should get a pass.

From your mouth to the new Prez's ear?