Another Shoe drops in the North Carolina Fiasco

[Wbbfan1]

Have to remember that some of these athletes were allowed to skate during HS and for most of their life they got what they wanted because they were elite athletes and necessary for their team to win. Why wouldn't they expect the same would happen at College. For many their goal in life was to become a professional athlete getting paid to play a sport, not get an education. Attending College was a means for them to achieve their goal, education was a second thought for many of them.

 

[stamfordhusky]

A small percentage of the score deals with reputation.
The other factors are things like SAT scores, fac/std ratio, spending/student -- things unaffected by the scandal.

In the USNews model, "academic reputation" gets a weight of 22.5%. With many schools being close to each other, a downgrade in that category could definitely lower their overall ranking. Unfortunately there are many ways to game the USNews model and a number of schools have done it.

Forbes, btw, has pulled colleges out of their rankings entirely for a period of time for things that weren't as bad as this.

 

[Vowelguy]

All of the things you mentioned are potentionally affected by the reputation of a university.

The numeric stuff is not going to change a lot in one year. Perhaps over time (though I'm skeptical), but not 1 year.

 

[Vowelguy]

In the USNews model, "academic reputation" gets a weight of 22.5%.

I stand corrected.

 

[Vowelguy]

Schools have survived cheating scandals, rape scandals, even murders.

Did Yale's ranking plummet after the student got murdered ~1990? If I were a parent, that would worry me a lot more than some kids taking gut classes. I doubt applications or SAT scores fell.

 

[Icebear]

Schools have survived cheating scandals, rape scandals, even murders.

Did Yale's ranking plummet after the student got murdered ~1990? If I were a parent, that would worry me a lot more than some kids taking gut classes. I doubt applications or SAT scores fell.

But never so thoroughly organized and executed plan of cheating. An event that strikes at the very heart of the purpose of a university and it obligations to the student body.

Murders happen on numerous campuses but are not caused by a university and certainly not systemically. Cheating happens but not at the behest of staff and over 18 or more years.

 

[intlzncster]

Have to remember that some of these athletes were allowed to skate during HS and for most of their life they got what they wanted because they were elite athletes and necessary for their team to win. Why wouldn't they expect the same would happen at College. For many their goal in life was to become a professional athlete getting paid to play a sport, not get an education. Attending College was a means for them to achieve their goal, education was a second thought for many of them.

More importantly, education is a second thought for those leading them. Probably even more so at the college, given the stakes, people and money involved.

 

[DobbsRover2]

UNC News reports the school: "#1 on the “Top 10 Best Value Public Colleges for 2014″ list published by The Princeton Review and reported jointly with USA Today."

Unfortunately, now that the school is also now #1 on "Top 10 Worst Values by Public Colleges for 2015 (based on 1995-2014 data)," the chances of rating services not noticing the scandal and taking the risk of not reflecting it in their standings and being held up to ridicule is about as high as the numbers of vowels in the word for a Welsh valley.

 

[Vowelguy]

But never so thoroughly organized and executed plan of cheating.

Yeah it's not like a decade-long mission by the senior administration to cover up child rape.

 

[Icebear]

Yeah it's not like a decade-long mission by the senior administration to cover up child rape.

Yes, the one was committed by one individual and stupidly covered up by two criminally for which they are being prosecuted. The other involved numerous faculty and students participating in almost two decades of defrauding the members of the NCAA, the student body, employers and the taxpayer.

 

[Beemer]

"These kids aren't stupid" really ? not at Maryland

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...name-the-vice-president-of-the-united-states/

There is a difference between stupid & ignorant.

 

[sivad40]

UNC's current national ranking - #30
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/page+3

UNC's current global ranking -#32
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings?page=4

It's interesting to see that some schools like UVA are higher than UNC nationally (UVA #23- UNC 30) but are lower than UNC globally (UVA #102- UNC #32).

 

[triaddukefan]

The other great UNC bashing thread got hijacked and ultimately locked. hopefully this thread will remain focused on bashing UNC

Yeah it's not like a decade-long mission by the senior administration to cover up child rape.

Yes, the one was committed by one individual and stupidly covered up by two criminally for which they are being prosecuted. The other involved numerous faculty and students participating in almost two decades of defrauding the members of the NCAA, the student body, employers and the taxpayer.

 

[msf22b]

CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — Former University of North Carolina head football coach Butch Davis believes he is being scapegoated by his former university as it deals with the largest academic fraud scandal in the history of college sports. (Fox)

Poor thing; I feel for him.
Tell him; someone's gotta take the fall.

 

[UcMiami]

CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — Former University of North Carolina head football coach Butch Davis believes he is being scapegoated by his former university as it deals with the largest academic fraud scandal in the history of college sports. (Fox)

Poor thing; I feel for him.
Tell him; someone's gotta take the fall.

If they annoy him enough he may just let fly with everything he knows! They have to be a wee bit careful in how they treat the folks they dump, because I am sure they have more skeletons.

 

[uconnell]

Yes, the one was committed by one individual and stupidly covered up by two criminally for which they are being prosecuted. The other involved numerous faculty and students participating in almost two decades of defrauding the members of the NCAA, the student body, employers and the taxpayer.

Sorry Icebear but rape is worse than cheating even if it went on so long, heaven only knows how long the rapes went on. I know you stick up for PEnn State, but really.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Tremendous exposure here with the potential of many lawsuits..... denial of a proper education is an eggregious shortcoming.

a couple of things amuse me here in a bad way

the guy who was broomed from UNC because he had too much help wriitng his papers

and Roy Williams..... who at every turn insists his innocence.... and that he does everything the right way...... football coaches have 100 people to look after .... hoops coaches have but 15

 

[Icebear]

Sorry Icebear but rape is worse than cheating even if it went on so long, heaven only knows how long the rapes went on. I know you stick up for PEnn State, but really.

No, I 'm sticking up for the facts as they were and are known. Maybe you missed the news reports today on the complicity of the NCAA in the Freeh report. LINK

I have never excused Sandusky, and make no apologies or justifications for any of his action. They are abhorant and inexcusable. I completely hold Curley and Schultz culpable for their actions and that they are being taken to court on charges. The NCAA made the whole thing a greater mess. They now are facing vulnerability to suit because of their actions outside of their charter.

It is increasingly clear that Joe and others never knew anything of Sandusky's actions. The former governor to be Corbett has now said that Joe's termination was in haste and probably not warranted.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I do not want to intrude into the moral weigh in on Sandusky Paterno PSU et al that has slipped in here. But to address the academic scandal that is college athletics and the UNC Cheats in particular, may I suggest that the next investigator look at what institutional mechanisms were in place over these many years that examined the question of what number of credits or hours were assigned to the classes in question. Admittedly, I attended an institution of higher learning that was far higher that this aprticular one under our microscopes, but I thin the model was and remains a universal one. To wit, every once and a while, there is an interdepartmental academic review of the content of each course and a recertification of the course and its credit hours. Not so at UNC Cheat? That is why I think there is a far larger shoe to fall at that University and it should fall on a lot of people far higher up.

 

[Bgillon]

I do not want to intrude into the moral weigh in on Sandusky Paterno PSU et al that has slipped in here. But to address the academic scandal that is college athletics and the UNC Cheats in particular, may I suggest that the next investigator look at what institutional mechanisms were in place over these many years that examined the question of what number of credits or hours were assigned to the classes in question. Admittedly, I attended an institution of higher learning that was far higher that this aprticular one under our microscopes, but I thin the model was and remains a universal one. To wit, every once and a while, there is an interdepartmental academic review of the content of each course and a recertification of the course and its credit hours. Not so at UNC Cheat? That is why I think there is a far larger shoe to fall at that University and it should fall on a lot of people far higher up.

I agree completely that we have not seen a thorough investigation of the UNC mess. Once some administrators have to testify, I believe the rats will run for cover.

 

[msf22b]

College accrediting agency sends letter to UNC (AP)

The News and Observer thought it would be relatively benign.

 

[loneycafe]

Adding this story from The Daily Tar Heel. It relates to UNC WBB.

More evidence emerges on Jan Boxill

Emails show Boxill, a philosophy professor, offered 160 independent study courses between spring 2004 and spring 2012, according to records obtained by The Daily Tar Heel. . . .

UNC women’s basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell said Boxill completely oversaw the teams’ academics, making herself available for players at all hours of the day. Hatchell said she never saw any red flags. . . .

Marc Lange, the current chairman of the philosophy department said independent studies are uncommon because the department has wide course offerings. Geoffrey Sayre-McCord, chairman of the department between 2001 and 2011, said more than 150 independent studies is an unusually large number.

“Why would a student take an independent study?” Lange said. “It’s only for extraordinarily well-qualified students for whom the course material is too elementary.”

Public records show Boxill would sometimes offer multiple students independent study courses each semester; for example, in spring 2005 she taught 20. UNC’s Public Records Office would not distinguish how many students enrolled in Boxill’s independent studies were student-athletes.

The emails released by Wainstein show some student-athletes were enrolled and steered to her courses — but his report doesn’t mention it.
​

Also, it appears that, though Boxill has been removed as director of the university's ethics center, she is still employed at UNC. In the past week or so, she attended a retirement ceremony for a colleague and sat at the same table with UNC Chancellor Carol Folt.

 

[Bgillon]

Adding this story from The Daily Tar Heel. It relates to UNC WBB.

More evidence emerges on Jan Boxill

Emails show Boxill, a philosophy professor, offered 160 independent study courses between spring 2004 and spring 2012, according to records obtained by The Daily Tar Heel. . . .

UNC women’s basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell said Boxill completely oversaw the teams’ academics, making herself available for players at all hours of the day. Hatchell said she never saw any red flags. . . .

Marc Lange, the current chairman of the philosophy department said independent studies are uncommon because the department has wide course offerings. Geoffrey Sayre-McCord, chairman of the department between 2001 and 2011, said more than 150 independent studies is an unusually large number.

“Why would a student take an independent study?” Lange said. “It’s only for extraordinarily well-qualified students for whom the course material is too elementary.”

Public records show Boxill would sometimes offer multiple students independent study courses each semester; for example, in spring 2005 she taught 20. UNC’s Public Records Office would not distinguish how many students enrolled in Boxill’s independent studies were student-athletes.

The emails released by Wainstein show some student-athletes were enrolled and steered to her courses — but his report doesn’t mention it.
​

Also, it appears that, though Boxill has been removed as director of the university's ethics center, she is still employed at UNC. In the past week or so, she attended a retirement ceremony for a colleague and sat at the same table with UNC Chancellor Carol Folt.

This proves that UNC doesn't get it. How can Boxill still be employed by UNC, let alone sit at a table next to the Chancellor. This is arrogance beyond belief!

 

[UcMiami]

lonecafe - wow! The scandal spreads! It would certainly appear that the lady who said 'yeah I am pretty sure it is plagiarized but all she needs is a 'D' to a department secretary in AFAM for one WCBB player might reasonably be suspected of running similar grading systems in her own 'independent study for athletes' program in philosophy. And ... did dear Geoffrey the department head notice 160 'rare' independent study classes being taught by a single instructor within his department and do no investigation?!
When I went to school, if you wanted to create an independent study course for yourself, you had to write a pretty detailed synopsis of what you were interested in researching and then in a series of meetings with your selected professor refine that study, and defend the necessity to do the work as an independent course as opposed to within an offered regular class. And then over the course of the semester have weekly meetings to discuss the work to date, any adjustments to the study, and the progress towards the final result. You had to find a professor willing to devote 20+ hours of their time outside of their regular course responsibilities to a single student. The idea that a professor would do 20 such courses in a single year would have been ludicrous - the fact that the department head for Philosophy, the fellow faculty and any administrators in the department would not question such a work load (or would be unaware that it existed) is unbelievable. In AFAM we know the department head was complicit - I don't suggest the same level of complicity, but at the minimum willful 'ignorance'.

 

[DobbsRover2]

This proves that UNC doesn't get it. How can Boxill still be employed by UNC, let alone sit at a table next to the Chancellor. This is arrogance beyond belief!

Oh they get it all right. You can just imagine what Boxill could spill if she has any incentive to do so. These players didn't just drop into her lap, as the steering emails indicate and that could lead eventually to a coach. Still may come to that though if charges are brought against her and she has to cut a deal.

And yes the coaches will always express shock and horror ("I knew nothing, nothing"), but whether it's the cheating or the rapes, and whether they are the intentionally-shielded do-it-but-don't-tell-me-anything types or the guy who knows when the smallest mouse farts on his campus but somehow has never heard even one vague rumor about his predator coach even after numerous investigated incidents, they are still ultimately responsible.

 

[UcMiami]

Interesting that the linked article is from the Daily Tar Heel - most of the stories and comments thereon from the DTH I have read are more defensive - this one is pretty blunt in its implications and the responses are all VERY sharply worded.

 

[Beemer]

This is bad and it is only going to get worse as more information is uncovered.

Someone should remind the UNC administration that while the crime is bad enough ignoring it, covering it up or trying to cover it up just makes everything worse.

 

[msf22b]

Like Watergate, almost every day, drip, drip, drip.

Soon, very soon, the administration will be forced out of its hole.

Some supervising agency: the Governor a legislator, The US Senate or House, FBI, State Police, an ambitious prosecutor, member of the board, Accrediting organizations, even the timid and broken NCAA…someone will demand answers and later scalps.

And the longer the Admin stonewalls, the worse it will be.

 

[loneycafe]

One of the insiders who has been dropping tidbits about developments at UNC posted on Pack Pride a few moments ago that UNC leaders/influencers are divided on Boxill. The poster is credible.

three factions:
1 People that want a Clean Sweep and feel that Boxill needs to go, along with some coaches. They like Boxill and the coaches but love restoring the integrity of the university more.

2 People that think firing/retiring Boxill will be final nail that brings down all banners and will result in great penalties to UNC far beyond what they think is deserved. SACS and NCAA watching the Boxill saga.

3. Lawyers on both sides of the issue and PR firms (plural intended) are waging war in support of both groups. ​

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Adding this story from The Daily Tar Heel. It relates to UNC WBB.

More evidence emerges on Jan Boxill

Emails show Boxill, a philosophy professor, offered 160 independent study courses between spring 2004 and spring 2012, according to records obtained by The Daily Tar Heel. . . .

UNC women’s basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell said Boxill completely oversaw the teams’ academics, making herself available for players at all hours of the day. Hatchell said she never saw any red flags. . . .

Marc Lange, the current chairman of the philosophy department said independent studies are uncommon because the department has wide course offerings. Geoffrey Sayre-McCord, chairman of the department between 2001 and 2011, said more than 150 independent studies is an unusually large number.

“Why would a student take an independent study?” Lange said. “It’s only for extraordinarily well-qualified students for whom the course material is too elementary.”

Public records show Boxill would sometimes offer multiple students independent study courses each semester; for example, in spring 2005 she taught 20. UNC’s Public Records Office would not distinguish how many students enrolled in Boxill’s independent studies were student-athletes.

The emails released by Wainstein show some student-athletes were enrolled and steered to her courses — but his report doesn’t mention it.

t
​

Also, it appears that, though Boxill has been removed as director of the university's ethics center, she is still employed at UNC. In the past week or so, she attended a retirement ceremony for a colleague and sat at the same table with UNC Chancellor Carol Folt.

The Prof makes a telling point. Independent study is suppose to be more rigorous than normal course work. Red flags should have been going up left and right about the athletes in these so called independent study courses; not to mention the impossible work load it would represent for Boxill!

More evidence pointing to complicity by those higher up in the organization. Boxill plainly has the goods on all sorts of people and will be well taken care of. Nixon thought Watergate could be contained, too.