Another Shoe drops in the North Carolina Fiasco

[Vowelguy]

I am sure that someone other than myself may have asked this question....what effect will this have on UNC's future enrollment? Not just speaking of athletes, but would parents want to spend their hard-earned sending Junior or Missy to a school with a reek, not just a whiff, of academic scandal? Won't this have repercussions in the real world when employers look at a degree and either smile skeptically or ask to see a transcript? I bet legit grads are none too pleased with this situation. And if I was a donor, I'd be thinking twice when the next fund drive came along.

Enrollment impact? Doubtful.
I suspect most parents would care about a problem that was still ongoing and that could randomly negatively impact their child (eg, crime).

Besides, this is not "new" news. This has been known for a couple of years, though, yes, this was the first time the finding were ratified in print.

 

[Vowelguy]

It will also be interesting to see the impact on US News and Business reports annually college rankings next year.

doubtful

 

[Icebear]

You doubt it will have impact or that it will be interesting to see?

 

[intlzncster]

I'm with you. These kids aren't stupid, except perhaps in the sense of seeking the easy way out- by that I mean attending easy classes to maintain eligibility to play sports. I'm sure this guy & his fellow students were well aware that these classes were a joke.

The unfortunate thing is that players were reportedy forced into a few low level (barebones) majors. They weren't given a choice to study what they wanted. If you are taking a joke class, how are you supposed to learn? Sure, you can leave the school, but then you are out of a schollie for a year or two. What if you didn't get any interest from any other good schools. And it's not like most kids is going to easily stand up to the pressure from a whole football program (coaches, administrators, fellow players and academic advisers).

Normally, I'm with you guys on this one, but UNC was so bad with this, there's some element of truth to what this lawsuit contends.

One football player came out with this accusation recently:

"Butch Davis came into a meeting one day and he said, 'if ya'll came here for an education, you should've went to Harvard,'" Powell said. "When somebody says that, what are we supposed to do? That's our leader, man. It ain't that we go in there and be like 'we want to take African American studies.' How did we know about it? They put it on the table for us, you can do this, do that."

 

[Vowelguy]

You doubt it will have impact or that it will be interesting to see?

The former.

 

[Zorro]

Unless the suit is summarily dismissed, the discover phase ought to be VERY interesting. Even the Wainstein (SP?) inquiry did not follow up on a lot of questions.

 

[intlzncster]

The unfortunate thing is that players were reportedy forced into a few low level (barebones) majors. They weren't given a choice to study what they wanted. If you are taking a joke class, how are you supposed to learn? Sure, you can leave the school, but then you are out of a schollie for a year or two. What if you didn't get any interest from any other good schools. And it's not like most kids is going to easily stand up to the pressure from a whole football program (coaches, administrators, fellow players and academic advisers).

Normally, I'm with you guys on this one, but UNC was so bad with this, there's some element of truth to what this lawsuit contends.

One football player came out with this accusation recently:

"Butch Davis came into a meeting one day and he said, 'if ya'll came here for an education, you should've went to Harvard,'" Powell said. "When somebody says that, what are we supposed to do? That's our leader, man. It ain't that we go in there and be like 'we want to take African American studies.' How did we know about it? They put it on the table for us, you can do this, do that."

One other addition to the above from former athlete:

"That's how it is, man, you know what I'm saying? People just look from the outside and go oh, well these kids -- no, man. It's the coaches that are telling us stuff. What are we supposed to do? We're away from our parents, we're looking up to this guy. When they come in your house and living room and they got those Super Bowl rings on, the last thing you're thinking about is a class."

Lastly, from his comments that players were told to intentionally fail an aptitude test in order to get “note takers,” it sounds like UNC could be in a world of trouble if more players begin to speak out.

 

[UcMiami]

One other addition to the above from former athlete:

"That's how it is, man, you know what I'm saying? People just look from the outside and go oh, well these kids -- no, man. It's the coaches that are telling us stuff. What are we supposed to do? We're away from our parents, we're looking up to this guy. When they come in your house and living room and they got those Super Bowl rings on, the last thing you're thinking about is a class."

Lastly, from his comments that players were told to intentionally fail an aptitude test in order to get “note takers,” it sounds like UNC could be in a world of trouble if more players begin to speak out.

Good quotes - and a little off topic but along the lines of the last paragraph - on of the amazing thing to me about modern parenting and elementary/HS is that parent now fight to get their kids declared learning 'challenged' so that they get extra time to take tests, special assistance, special drugs, etc. At least in my school experience (30-40 years ago) the exact opposite was true. Now any advantage you can get for your kid is the goal of many parents.

 

[intlzncster]

Good quotes - and a little off topic but along the lines of the last paragraph - on of the amazing thing to me about modern parenting and elementary/HS is that parent now fight to get their kids declared learning 'challenged' so that they get extra time to take tests, special assistance, special drugs, etc. At least in my school experience (30-40 years ago) the exact opposite was true. Now any advantage you can get for your kid is the goal of many parents.

They do a similar thing with athletes now too. Kids are made to stay back in 8th grade in order to get a leg up (an extra year) in physical development. It's like taking a post grad year before high school . So you get that developmental edge for 4 years rather than one.

 

[j66kicker]

They do a similar thing with athletes now too. Kids are made to stay back in 8th grade in order to get a leg up (an extra year) in physical development. It's like taking a post grad year before high school . So you get that developmental edge for 4 years rather than one.

In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell reported that virtually the only Canadian boys who make it to the NHL are the ones who are "old for their age" in youth hockey - their birthday falls just after the cutoff date and they play with kids mostly younger than themselves. At young ages the developmental differences tend to be large, and these kids tend to be the starters and get to play a lot more minutes than their younger "peers." This playing experience gives them a huge edge, even as they get older and the developmental differences even out.

 

[stamfordhusky]

In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell reported that virtually the only Canadian boys who make it to the NHL are the ones who are "old for their age" in youth hockey - their birthday falls just after the cutoff date and they play with kids mostly younger than themselves. At young ages the developmental differences tend to be large, and these kids tend to be the starters and get to play a lot more minutes than their younger "peers." This playing experience gives them a huge edge, even as they get older and the developmental differences even out.

Also has been true for decades in soccer. At the youth level, the cutoff date traditionally was August 1st. The majority of the stars would be kids born between August 1st and the end of Fall. Very few with spring and summer (ore-August 1st) birthdays. Then those kids would be the ones selected for ODP and the better clubs, where better coaching, training, and competition would increase the gap between them and the younger ones.

BTW, it's not quite as extreme as you suggest. About 33% of NHL players are born in the first quarter and about 17% in the fourth quarter. The difference is somewhat greater in Juniors.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2008/12/malcolm-gladwells-outliers-and-making.html

 

[j66kicker]

Also has been true for decades in soccer. At the youth level, the cutoff date traditionally was August 1st. The majority of the stars would be kids born between August 1st and the end of Fall. Very few with spring and summer (ore-August 1st) birthdays. Then those kids would be the ones selected for ODP and the better clubs, where better coaching, training, and competition would increase the gap between them and the younger ones.

BTW, it's not quite as extreme as you suggest. About 33% of NHL players are born in the first quarter and about 17% in the fourth quarter. The difference is somewhat greater in Juniors.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2008/12/malcolm-gladwells-outliers-and-making.html

Gladwell's main point with this was that extremely high performers ("geniuses") invariably have at least 10,000 hours of practice (yeah, back to that) under their belts - Beatles played 8-hour sets in Hamburg every day for 3 years, Mickey Mantle's dad put a baseball in his crib (Diana Taurasi spent 6 hours a day shooting buckets in her driveway, etc.,etc.).

 

[Icebear]

The former.

If so that in itself will be interesting.

 

[Vowelguy]

If so that in itself will be interesting.

A small percentage of the score deals with reputation.
The other factors are things like SAT scores, fac/std ratio, spending/student -- things unaffected by the scandal.

 

[Icebear]

All of the things you mentioned are potentionally affected by the reputation of a university. The longer it stays in the news and the more lawsuits that could emerge and the appearance that the school intends to try to continue avoiding rather than fixing the situation the more their reputation takes a hit. This can lead to others avoiding any affiliation with the name.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Have to remember that some of these athletes were allowed to skate during HS and for most of their life they got what they wanted because they were elite athletes and necessary for their team to win. Why wouldn't they expect the same would happen at College. For many their goal in life was to become a professional athlete getting paid to play a sport, not get an education. Attending College was a means for them to achieve their goal, education was a second thought for many of them.

 

[stamfordhusky]

A small percentage of the score deals with reputation.
The other factors are things like SAT scores, fac/std ratio, spending/student -- things unaffected by the scandal.

In the USNews model, "academic reputation" gets a weight of 22.5%. With many schools being close to each other, a downgrade in that category could definitely lower their overall ranking. Unfortunately there are many ways to game the USNews model and a number of schools have done it.

Forbes, btw, has pulled colleges out of their rankings entirely for a period of time for things that weren't as bad as this.

 

[Vowelguy]

All of the things you mentioned are potentionally affected by the reputation of a university.

The numeric stuff is not going to change a lot in one year. Perhaps over time (though I'm skeptical), but not 1 year.

 

[Vowelguy]

In the USNews model, "academic reputation" gets a weight of 22.5%.

I stand corrected.

 

[Vowelguy]

Schools have survived cheating scandals, rape scandals, even murders.

Did Yale's ranking plummet after the student got murdered ~1990? If I were a parent, that would worry me a lot more than some kids taking gut classes. I doubt applications or SAT scores fell.

 

[Icebear]

Schools have survived cheating scandals, rape scandals, even murders.

Did Yale's ranking plummet after the student got murdered ~1990? If I were a parent, that would worry me a lot more than some kids taking gut classes. I doubt applications or SAT scores fell.

But never so thoroughly organized and executed plan of cheating. An event that strikes at the very heart of the purpose of a university and it obligations to the student body.

Murders happen on numerous campuses but are not caused by a university and certainly not systemically. Cheating happens but not at the behest of staff and over 18 or more years.

 

[intlzncster]

Have to remember that some of these athletes were allowed to skate during HS and for most of their life they got what they wanted because they were elite athletes and necessary for their team to win. Why wouldn't they expect the same would happen at College. For many their goal in life was to become a professional athlete getting paid to play a sport, not get an education. Attending College was a means for them to achieve their goal, education was a second thought for many of them.

More importantly, education is a second thought for those leading them. Probably even more so at the college, given the stakes, people and money involved.

 

[DobbsRover2]

UNC News reports the school: "#1 on the “Top 10 Best Value Public Colleges for 2014″ list published by The Princeton Review and reported jointly with USA Today."

Unfortunately, now that the school is also now #1 on "Top 10 Worst Values by Public Colleges for 2015 (based on 1995-2014 data)," the chances of rating services not noticing the scandal and taking the risk of not reflecting it in their standings and being held up to ridicule is about as high as the numbers of vowels in the word for a Welsh valley.

 

[Vowelguy]

But never so thoroughly organized and executed plan of cheating.

Yeah it's not like a decade-long mission by the senior administration to cover up child rape.

 

[Icebear]

Yeah it's not like a decade-long mission by the senior administration to cover up child rape.

Yes, the one was committed by one individual and stupidly covered up by two criminally for which they are being prosecuted. The other involved numerous faculty and students participating in almost two decades of defrauding the members of the NCAA, the student body, employers and the taxpayer.