Another Shoe drops in the North Carolina Fiasco | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Another Shoe drops in the North Carolina Fiasco

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easttexastrash said:
Now some player is suing UNC for not educating him? UNC sucks but that's like suing a liquor store for selling you liquor. He knew what he was doing.
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Listen to the anonymous player interview. He unwittingly makes a case for some of the athletes actually being that stoopid. This guy is not going to be submitting a resume to a big accounting firm, law firm, Wall Street brokerage, etc., and have them question the validity of his UNC degree. Wal-Mart maybe, but questionable if he could read the application.
 
elzorrogris said:
Actually, If I understand it correctly, McAdoo's suit involves the allegation that UNC AND the NCAA jerked his schollie without just cause, thereby depriving him of his chance for education, and doesn't directly involve his not being actually educated in the ghost classes he took. If this is incorrect, someone please correct me.
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That's what it looks like to me. Both his 2011 suit and the new one. Says he was made a scapegoat for the academic scandal and kicked off the team, denying him the education he was promised.
 
In yesterdays news, groups of professors are attempting to leverage authority in gaining control over the issues of academic standards for athletes at the university; a reasonable assertion of self interest. Many are deeply concerned (as well they should be)

“Things are bad now at this university,” said Rudi Colloredo-Mansfeld, professor and chairman of the anthropology department. “We are sitting amidst the worst athletic/academic scandal in the history of U.S. collegiate sports and we are ground zero. I feel that if there was ever a time to change, if there was ever a time to bring things in line, now is the time.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11...er.html?sp=/99/102/110/112/973/#storylink=cpy
 
“The response of the administration seems to have been that no further change needs to happen, all the reforms have taken place, so the most important thing that we should all do is make happy talk about Carolina and change the subject,” Watson said. “That just seems horrible to me in the midst of all this.”
 
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easttexastrash said:
Now some player is suing UNC for not educating him? UNC sucks but that's like suing a liquor store for selling you liquor. He knew what he was doing.
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I'm with you. These kids aren't stupid, except perhaps in the sense of seeking the easy way out- by that I mean attending easy classes to maintain eligibility to play sports. I'm sure this guy & his fellow students were well aware that these classes were a joke.
 
elzorrogris said:
Actually, If I understand it correctly, McAdoo's suit involves the allegation that UNC AND the NCAA jerked his schollie without just cause, thereby depriving him of his chance for education, and doesn't directly involve his not being actually educated in the ghost classes he took. If this is incorrect, someone please correct me.
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First suit lawyers made claim McAdoo did not do enough wrong to merit the punishment he received.
New suit goes in different direction. It admits he didn't have legitimate course tracking. Now the claim is UNC exploited him.

Whatever the opinion we may have about McAdoo's role in this, that is, he had to know he wasn't getting a proper education, it appears to me that he is angry about the way UNC singled him out in this scandal. Reading between the tea leaves it had to be rotten to know other athletes were getting the same "benefits" he received and were getting away with it. He didn't want to rat them out so he takes his revenge on the double injustice rather than attempting to fix things.
 
easttexastrash said:
Now some player is suing UNC for not educating him? UNC sucks but that's like suing a liquor store for selling you liquor. He knew what he was doing.
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I think part of the issue in this and other lawsuits that will come is two fold:
1. UNC made representations to recruits that they would receive extraordinary assistance in bringing them up to speed for UNC academics and that was a false inducement - the extraordinary assistance was to send them to bogus classes.
2. The academic support department and/or the coaches ignored athletes expressed areas of interest and instead told them exactly what classes they would be enrolled in - you want criminal justice, sorry, you are taking AFAM, these classes, and if you don't, well you aren't going to be on the team.

A lot of these kids had absolutely no clue what college work or college classes should look like and were used to taking whatever 'coach says' as gospel. Big time sports in HS and college can be very much like military service - Yes sir, no sir, how high sir ...

Half of the kids taking these classes were not athletes and some percentage of the athletes taking the classes were probably very capable of taking advanced academic courses at UNC and did so for the majority of their classes - they saw these classes as a way to skate for a semester in one class while they worked hard in their other classes. It happens all the time in college with elective classes that are less taxing than degree courses in their major field. Mostly those 'skate' classes are legitimate with professors and real grades - Life drawing 101, or dance for athletes, or music appreciation, or ... - they require attendance and attention, but are light on reading/research/papers.
 
Unless the suit is summarily dismissed, the discover phase ought to be VERY interesting. Even the Wainstein (SP?) report left a lot of potential follow-up questions unasked.
 
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I am sure that someone other than myself may have asked this question....what effect will this have on UNC's future enrollment? Not just speaking of athletes, but would parents want to spend their hard-earned $$ sending Junior or Missy to a school with a reek, not just a whiff, of academic scandal? Won't this have repercussions in the real world when employers look at a degree and either smile skeptically or ask to see a transcript? I bet legit grads are none too pleased with this situation. And if I was a donor, I'd be thinking twice when the next fund drive came along.
 
ChicagoGG said:
I am sure that someone other than myself may have asked this question....what effect will this have on UNC's future enrollment? Not just speaking of athletes, but would parents want to spend their hard-earned sending Junior or Missy to a school with a reek, not just a whiff, of academic scandal? Won't this have repercussions in the real world when employers look at a degree and either smile skeptically or ask to see a transcript? I bet legit grads are none too pleased with this situation. And if I was a donor, I'd be thinking twice when the next fund drive came along.
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While the scandal isn't a great recruiting tool, the fact is that UNC is still a good academic school - I imagine recruiting for sports teams is taking a major hit and will continue to do so until the NCAA comes down with a ruling - recruits aren't likely to sign with a school that is facing serious post season bans if they have another viable option, and those that suspect they are not going to be academically up to UNC normal class standards will probably figure that the available gut classes and tutorial assistance will be very limited for the foreseeable future.
As for grads and students and future students - the interview process involved in most jobs will clearly weed out those that did not get a standard college education - that has always been the case - certain majors, and extracurricular activities (money sports) have always raised flags on resumes. Someone with a BA in history or BS in chemistry or ... will not be affected by this scandal.
 
ChicagoGG said:
I am sure that someone other than myself may have asked this question....what effect will this have on UNC's future enrollment? Not just speaking of athletes, but would parents want to spend their hard-earned sending Junior or Missy to a school with a reek, not just a whiff, of academic scandal? Won't this have repercussions in the real world when employers look at a degree and either smile skeptically or ask to see a transcript? I bet legit grads are none too pleased with this situation. And if I was a donor, I'd be thinking twice when the next fund drive came along.
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Enrollment impact? Doubtful.
I suspect most parents would care about a problem that was still ongoing and that could randomly negatively impact their child (eg, crime).

Besides, this is not "new" news. This has been known for a couple of years, though, yes, this was the first time the finding were ratified in print.
 
You doubt it will have impact or that it will be interesting to see?
 
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Beemer said:
I'm with you. These kids aren't stupid, except perhaps in the sense of seeking the easy way out- by that I mean attending easy classes to maintain eligibility to play sports. I'm sure this guy & his fellow students were well aware that these classes were a joke.
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The unfortunate thing is that players were reportedy forced into a few low level (barebones) majors. They weren't given a choice to study what they wanted. If you are taking a joke class, how are you supposed to learn? Sure, you can leave the school, but then you are out of a schollie for a year or two. What if you didn't get any interest from any other good schools. And it's not like most kids is going to easily stand up to the pressure from a whole football program (coaches, administrators, fellow players and academic advisers).

Normally, I'm with you guys on this one, but UNC was so bad with this, there's some element of truth to what this lawsuit contends.

One football player came out with this accusation recently:

"Butch Davis came into a meeting one day and he said, 'if ya'll came here for an education, you should've went to Harvard,'" Powell said. "When somebody says that, what are we supposed to do? That's our leader, man. It ain't that we go in there and be like 'we want to take African American studies.' How did we know about it? They put it on the table for us, you can do this, do that."
 
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Unless the suit is summarily dismissed, the discover phase ought to be VERY interesting. Even the Wainstein (SP?) inquiry did not follow up on a lot of questions.
 
intlzncster said:
The unfortunate thing is that players were reportedy forced into a few low level (barebones) majors. They weren't given a choice to study what they wanted. If you are taking a joke class, how are you supposed to learn? Sure, you can leave the school, but then you are out of a schollie for a year or two. What if you didn't get any interest from any other good schools. And it's not like most kids is going to easily stand up to the pressure from a whole football program (coaches, administrators, fellow players and academic advisers).

Normally, I'm with you guys on this one, but UNC was so bad with this, there's some element of truth to what this lawsuit contends.

One football player came out with this accusation recently:

"Butch Davis came into a meeting one day and he said, 'if ya'll came here for an education, you should've went to Harvard,'" Powell said. "When somebody says that, what are we supposed to do? That's our leader, man. It ain't that we go in there and be like 'we want to take African American studies.' How did we know about it? They put it on the table for us, you can do this, do that."
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One other addition to the above from former athlete:

"That's how it is, man, you know what I'm saying? People just look from the outside and go oh, well these kids -- no, man. It's the coaches that are telling us stuff. What are we supposed to do? We're away from our parents, we're looking up to this guy. When they come in your house and living room and they got those Super Bowl rings on, the last thing you're thinking about is a class."

Lastly, from his comments that players were told to intentionally fail an aptitude test in order to get “note takers,” it sounds like UNC could be in a world of trouble if more players begin to speak out.
 
intlzncster said:
One other addition to the above from former athlete:

"That's how it is, man, you know what I'm saying? People just look from the outside and go oh, well these kids -- no, man. It's the coaches that are telling us stuff. What are we supposed to do? We're away from our parents, we're looking up to this guy. When they come in your house and living room and they got those Super Bowl rings on, the last thing you're thinking about is a class."

Lastly, from his comments that players were told to intentionally fail an aptitude test in order to get “note takers,” it sounds like UNC could be in a world of trouble if more players begin to speak out.
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Good quotes - and a little off topic but along the lines of the last paragraph - on of the amazing thing to me about modern parenting and elementary/HS is that parent now fight to get their kids declared learning 'challenged' so that they get extra time to take tests, special assistance, special drugs, etc. At least in my school experience (30-40 years ago) the exact opposite was true. Now any advantage you can get for your kid is the goal of many parents.
 
UcMiami said:
Good quotes - and a little off topic but along the lines of the last paragraph - on of the amazing thing to me about modern parenting and elementary/HS is that parent now fight to get their kids declared learning 'challenged' so that they get extra time to take tests, special assistance, special drugs, etc. At least in my school experience (30-40 years ago) the exact opposite was true. Now any advantage you can get for your kid is the goal of many parents.
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They do a similar thing with athletes now too. Kids are made to stay back in 8th grade in order to get a leg up (an extra year) in physical development. It's like taking a post grad year before high school . So you get that developmental edge for 4 years rather than one.
 
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intlzncster said:
They do a similar thing with athletes now too. Kids are made to stay back in 8th grade in order to get a leg up (an extra year) in physical development. It's like taking a post grad year before high school . So you get that developmental edge for 4 years rather than one.
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In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell reported that virtually the only Canadian boys who make it to the NHL are the ones who are "old for their age" in youth hockey - their birthday falls just after the cutoff date and they play with kids mostly younger than themselves. At young ages the developmental differences tend to be large, and these kids tend to be the starters and get to play a lot more minutes than their younger "peers." This playing experience gives them a huge edge, even as they get older and the developmental differences even out.
 
j66kicker said:
In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell reported that virtually the only Canadian boys who make it to the NHL are the ones who are "old for their age" in youth hockey - their birthday falls just after the cutoff date and they play with kids mostly younger than themselves. At young ages the developmental differences tend to be large, and these kids tend to be the starters and get to play a lot more minutes than their younger "peers." This playing experience gives them a huge edge, even as they get older and the developmental differences even out.
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Also has been true for decades in soccer. At the youth level, the cutoff date traditionally was August 1st. The majority of the stars would be kids born between August 1st and the end of Fall. Very few with spring and summer (ore-August 1st) birthdays. Then those kids would be the ones selected for ODP and the better clubs, where better coaching, training, and competition would increase the gap between them and the younger ones.

BTW, it's not quite as extreme as you suggest. About 33% of NHL players are born in the first quarter and about 17% in the fourth quarter. The difference is somewhat greater in Juniors.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2008/12/malcolm-gladwells-outliers-and-making.html
 
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stamfordhusky said:
Also has been true for decades in soccer. At the youth level, the cutoff date traditionally was August 1st. The majority of the stars would be kids born between August 1st and the end of Fall. Very few with spring and summer (ore-August 1st) birthdays. Then those kids would be the ones selected for ODP and the better clubs, where better coaching, training, and competition would increase the gap between them and the younger ones.

BTW, it's not quite as extreme as you suggest. About 33% of NHL players are born in the first quarter and about 17% in the fourth quarter. The difference is somewhat greater in Juniors.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2008/12/malcolm-gladwells-outliers-and-making.html
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Gladwell's main point with this was that extremely high performers ("geniuses") invariably have at least 10,000 hours of practice (yeah, back to that) under their belts - Beatles played 8-hour sets in Hamburg every day for 3 years, Mickey Mantle's dad put a baseball in his crib (Diana Taurasi spent 6 hours a day shooting buckets in her driveway, etc.,etc.).
 
Icebear said:
If so that in itself will be interesting.
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A small percentage of the score deals with reputation.
The other factors are things like SAT scores, fac/std ratio, spending/student -- things unaffected by the scandal.
 
All of the things you mentioned are potentionally affected by the reputation of a university. The longer it stays in the news and the more lawsuits that could emerge and the appearance that the school intends to try to continue avoiding rather than fixing the situation the more their reputation takes a hit. This can lead to others avoiding any affiliation with the name.
 
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