Another Example of SEC Mediocrity/Tenn loss

[CBus13]

Gotcha; I thought you meant someone left Rocky Top.

Under Warlick:

Jasmine Phillips was a JC Transfer in and Warlick's first signee as a head coach but after one year she transferred out (to ECU) and then Jannah Tucker transferred to Villanova.

 

[HuskyNan]

You have to wonder if some of the UNC transfers (and there have been a lot) were driven by a lack of chemistry, which seems to have carried over to TN. Maybe we'll see a similar flood of transfers out of Knoxville at the end of this year.

I think it was the NCAA investigation and apparent pending sanctions that spurred the transfers.

 

[trb123]

Because people raved about those moments of great effort and incredible athleticism and didn't look 'under the hood' her freshman year. Diamond shot more than any other player at UNC (220 more shots that the #2 player) and shot more threes than any other player and she was shooting similar percentages to this year (.424/.279). The rest of the UNC team shot .450/.336 and there were 5 players shooting significantly better and five players shooting threes better than Diamond on that team. She had the third highest number of assists on the team, but she was the only one of the three to have more turnovers than assists - her A/TO of 0.75 - the rest of the wings/guards had an A/TO of 1.19 and the team had an A/TO of 0.89 All of her percentage statistics were below the team average for those statistics. She had a gaudy scoring average but she was a very inefficient shooter. UNC was a free flowing offensive team, TN is not, so what you see looks worse this year, but it really is a continuation of what came before.
In a freshman you look at all the excitement and forgive the other stuff, as a third year player you are happy for her that she is able to play 'her style' of basketball, and thankful it is for someone else's team!

On Edit - she is actually shooting a higher percentage than the rest of the team this year at TN so comparatively she is doing better this year than her freshman year. (That does not say much for the rest of the TN team!)

What are the chances that DD left UNC because Hatchell was coming back? Perhaps Hatchell does not tolerate grandstanding.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

What are the chances that DD left UNC because Hatchell was coming back? Perhaps Hatchell does not tolerate grandstanding.

Sylvia doesn't really strike me as much of a disciplinarian, to be honest. I'm sure the transfers were due to the potential probation. The NCAA sure has been dragging their feet.

 

[j66kicker]

What are the chances that DD left UNC because Hatchell was coming back? Perhaps Hatchell does not tolerate grandstanding.

Prolly nuthin', but I was wondering if Sylvia may have just told her main players that UNC WBB was going to get more than their fair share of the blame for the academic scandal, and suggested they get the h--- outta Dodge. ??

 

[trb123]

I think the Lady Vol problem is greatly overblown. After all, Tennessee has her Mercedes and Diamond has her Benz.

 

[rugbymate]

Oh point well taken..... but i do not think it matters..... because i think Holly demands nothing of them..... there are no consequences for disobeying her wishes.....

I think of a woman from our old neighborhood who would take her 6 year old to the town pool, and when it was time for dinner..... and she called her daughter out of the pool, Melissa wouldn't come out. 20 minutes later it was " Please Melissa time to get out of the pool!!" and over and over. If the mother were Holly she would say "I tell her what to do but she doesn't want to do it"

Holly has to say to DD....if you aren't willing to get in a defensive stance then your butt is on the bench. Period. No debate. .....Geno benches anyone who isn't with the program...once you allow the players to dictate standards you are lost...Holly needs the confidence to bech All-Americans and she isn't there yet

 

[iri10]

This is Diamond's 3rd year of college. Maybe she's just not that good? Not every top recruit pans out or lives up to the hype.

To be fair, she hasn't really been coached by anyone decent in that time. She went from questionable coaching at UNC (Hatchell not present with her medical issues, and not really known for running a tight ship anyway) to questionable coaching at Tennessee, playing her first year under Warlick in a year when Warlick has clearly lost control of her team. Who knows what she might have been like if she had a coach strong enough to tell her that she's not playing intelligently (and bench her until that sinks in), and smart enough to teach her to play intelligently?

And yet on the other hand, it has to be pointed out that perhaps the loose coaching environment was what drew her to UNC (I seem to recall quotes suggesting that). If that was the case, is she now at the point where she's willing to learn? Not that she'll learn anything this year even if she wants to...again, Holly Warlick is coach.

 

[StarMan]

Prolly nuthin', but I was wondering if Sylvia may have just told her main players that UNC WBB was going to get more than their fair share of the blame for the academic scandal, and suggested they get the h--- outta Dodge. ??

There's a chance that Sylvia Hatchell sees little wrong with what her team had been doing...

UNC’s Sylvia Hatchell: ‘There are no allegations’ against women’s basketball

 

[Goodgood]

This is what Geno said of DD:

"There was never any doubt she was the kind of talent coming out of high school that could have kind of a Maya [Moore] impact on a program," Auriemma said. "It was managing all the other stuff that went along with it that was going to be an issue for wherever she went. Now that she's at a place that's used to that, they know how to do that somewhat".

in this article: http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn...-espn-jacobs-column-1104-20151103-column.html

Maybe "all the stuff" are not being well managed by CHW and are detected by Linea Harper on her visit.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Not many Tenn fans around at the moment. You seem to be closet one available lol. Why no possibility that it's a player problem?

oh i missed your question here yesterday.... it is always the total responsibility of the head coach because she has total control of program and has ability to put fixes in where they are needed...... obvious moves she can make are the most visual.... who gets to play, what kind of offense or defense to implement? But it goes much further than that. The example I used with the players not wanting to get in the defensive stance..... that is 100% Holly's problem ..... there is no discipline.... she would have us to believe that it is the players fault.... Not at all.....

But the less obvious things..... "quick shooting the basketball" Totally Holly..... she is the one presumably who runs the practices..... she cannot teach them to seek the best shot....?? And shooting percentage..... isnt that a byproduct of running a good offense and thus getting better percentage shots, and not off balance garbage as they are throwing up..... ?? They are not running an offense that looks well thought out and looks worthy of the work of a $600 thousand dollar coach..... why cant the coach implement a sensible offense and if her gals do not listen and follow through on the plan, they can sit on the bench>?? Wont happen with Holly..... instead of confronting her players, she would be... and was,,,, much more confortable in the passive aggressive mode, where she gives up on the team and hands the game coaching (i think it was Va Tech) to an assistant. that is an easy solution for her.... she does not have to discipline anyone and can still be friends with them....

Even things like turnovers and free throws are influenced by the coach..... although i do agree there is a part of the responsibility that has to be asssumed by the players.... if a player is not hitting free throws, it is up to the coach to try and correct it.... and not just say "well we cannot hit our free throws" going back 30 years when ND won the football championship, QB Tony Rice was having considerable trouble throwing the ball with accuracy..... Coach Lou Holtz had him practicing throwing darts to gain his accuracy and confidence back.... out of the box tactic yes, but the point is he did something about it, and didnt say "i do not know what to do..... he just cannot throw with accuracy for whatever reason" and if Holtz did say that, would he look so weak for not trying

Remember Moriah her freshman year? Her shot was not accurate..... but by the time sophmore year came her shot had developed to the point it could be counted on.... I think that coaching influence had something to do with that, and Moriah did not just serendipidously saunter into the gym and determine what shots to look for and how to shoot those shots and how long to practice them.

Ultimately it all falls on the head coach to make adjustments and changes when things are not right, and i do not see CHW making any


http://www.swishappeal.com/2015/12/13/9867322/linnae-harper-transfers-ohio-state-kentucky

 

[JoePgh]

And yet on the other hand, it has to be pointed out that perhaps the loose coaching environment was what drew her to UNC (I seem to recall quotes suggesting that). If that was the case, is she now at the point where she's willing to learn?

She did indeed say something to Mechelle Voepel that suggested that, roughly that she played a certain way and wanted to avoid having a coach who would try to change that. Mechelle said that sounded strange to her "old person" ears.

One does wonder whether the last three years have caused her to question the wisdom of taking that stance as a senior in high school.

Even so, she will probably be a lottery pick (possibly a #1 overall draft pick) whenever she decides, and is eligible, to head for the WNBA. Whoever gets her will get an amazing raw talent who has a lot to learn, and an iffy attitude toward having to learn (unless that has changed in the last few years).

 

[Bayareahusky]

Well that is a discipline issue which I agree is part of coaching but separate from x's and o's so I'm not sure what you mean when you say the players were sold a bill of goods.

I mean this because ultimately a recruit needs to be sold on the foodness and acumen of the coaching staff..... and her parents do as well..... especially this is true when the LVs are touting 7 mcdonalds all americans on its team. Presumable they all want a chance to make a living in the WNBA..... Coaching staff says "Entrust your daughter with us and we will not only look after her, but we will coach her up and prepare her for the next level better than anywhere else you could choose to send her.

My guess is that Mercedes and DD got more coaching on their recent USA summer team than they ever did or will get at Tenn. And isnt it funny they both were lauded for their play? Different coaching dynamic, different results.

These recruits are not warned that their future teammates will not be coached well, or be held accountable for improving each day..... or be part of a cohesive group on the floor. They are told, I imagine, to look at the ceiling of TBA, and to the rafters, where 8 banners hang proudly, and asked if they would like to be a part of it? But ya gotta have chickens to make chicken soup

 

[Bayareahusky]

Prolly nuthin', but I was wondering if Sylvia may have just told her main players that UNC WBB was going to get more than their fair share of the blame for the academic scandal, and suggested they get the h--- outta Dodge. ??

I think the womens program took too much of the blame for this..... I would like to see the final report.... I think we will see that this is a wild attempt to protect the mens football and hoops programs at any cost.....

 

[Bayareahusky]

Holly has to say to DD....if you aren't willing to get in a defensive stance then your butt is on the bench. Period. No debate. .....Geno benches anyone who isn't with the program...once you allow the players to dictate standards you are lost...Holly needs the confidence to bech All-Americans and she isn't there yet

yeah and that is my point...... not plating pop psychologist, but holly just does not have it in her to sit anyone down.....

remember when pat set up a game in chicago for Parker's homecoming, and she violated curfew, so sat the first half in a game with all her friends and family there to see her play?

would it happen with holly?

 

[Alydar]

My guess is that Mercedes and DD got more coaching on their recent USA summer team than they ever did or will get at Tenn. And isnt it funny they both were lauded for their play? Different coaching dynamic, different results.

I recall that Diamond only played a few minutes of the first WUG game and sat with bad legs for the rest of the games.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I recall that Diamond only played a few minutes of the first WUG game and sat with bad legs for the rest of the games.

thanks i had forgotten that

 

[UcMiami]

She did indeed say something to Mechelle Voepel that suggested that, roughly that she played a certain way and wanted to avoid having a coach who would try to change that. Mechelle said that sounded strange to her "old person" ears.

One does wonder whether the last three years have caused her to question the wisdom of taking that stance as a senior in high school.

Even so, she will probably be a lottery pick (possibly a #1 overall draft pick) whenever she decides, and is eligible, to head for the WNBA. Whoever gets her will get an amazing raw talent who has a lot to learn, and an iffy attitude toward having to learn (unless that has changed in the last few years).

I would be very surprised if she gets taken #1 or even as a lottery pick unless she shows more over the intervening years - pro teams do not have much time to coach their players so they need draft picks that already have that coaching. Add in some medical issues with her legs and it is a very risky pick.

I think the womens program took too much of the blame for this..... I would like to see the final report.... I think we will see that this is a wild attempt to protect the mens football and hoops programs at any cost.....

I agree, except they have the smoking gun of the academic advisor's (yeah the head of the ethics department or whatever they called it) emails to the department administrator identifying the specific grades that she needed for certain players in some of the 'paper' classes.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

A few years a well respected assistant was brought in, a woman named Jolette Law. If the name is familiar, it's because she was an assistant at Rutgers during the years where an organized offense was optional. (No offense to our RU friends)

Jolette was a good recruiter. Actually, very good.

She was a good coach defensively, and I think was a big help to Tasha Pointer, who was a natural point guard, a chess player, and all that to begin with. Very different if you are dealing with folks without good basketball sense.

Then she coached Illinois to no-where.

Note that I did not mention "offense" once in this post until this line.

 

[EricSD]

This is what Geno said of DD:

"There was never any doubt she was the kind of talent coming out of high school that could have kind of a Maya [Moore] impact on a program," Auriemma said. "It was managing all the other stuff that went along with it that was going to be an issue for wherever she went. Now that she's at a place that's used to that, they know how to do that somewhat".

in this article: http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn...-espn-jacobs-column-1104-20151103-column.html

Maybe "all the stuff" are not being well managed by CHW and are detected by Linea Harper on her visit.

It was actually a great article. DD SAYS all the right things - talks about team, talks about goals for her team, talks about helping LEAD them (Tennessee) to glory again...

"They say we haven't had a marquee player since Candace Parker," said DeShields, who has three years of eligibility remaining. "For Candace to say, 'You're it.' For Chamique to say, 'You're it,' I feel they are my big sisters. It's like being accepted by your elders.

"Every team needs a leader, but I feel like with Tennessee you are always on the team even after you go. All those players, we're still on the team together. It might not be a senior I look up to. It might not be a coach I get my confidence from. But I do get it from my big sisters. For them to say, I can put myself in the same position they are, that's all the confidence I need. I want to be like them."

But there was also some of the "this is what I want for me"..."Personally, I want to be an All-American first team. I want to be SEC player of the year. I don't like second place. I don't like second team. So for me, winning means being considered the best."

Still, nothing out of the ordinary even with those comments - she was probably asked about personal goals. I loved Geno's comment that you quoted - "it was managing all the other stuff that went along with..." - referencing Diamond in his comments with what needed to be "managed". Won't speculate on the board what he meant, but the chemistry issues that have dogged her since her UNC days seem to NOT be what he was referencing. Clearly Tennessee and Holly were not ready to manage the personalities they have that are causing the chemistry issues on the team.

Bottom line is I have no idea what to expect from Tennessee. Their fans believe they have a quartet of top 5 players in the classes those kids came from - Nared, Deshields, Russell and Cooper (regardless of what their HS rankings were). With that kind of talent on paper, Tenn should be a lock for the final 4.

That they aren't even close gives you an indication of 2 things - just how bad the coaching is and just how much the chemistry issues are preventing the players from playing anything resembling team ball...

 

[UcMiami]

Bottom line is I have no idea what to expect from Tennessee. Their fans believe they have a quartet of top 5 players in the classes those kids came from - Nared, Deshields, Russell and Cooper (regardless of what their HS rankings were). With that kind of talent on paper, Tenn should be a lock for the final 4.

That they aren't even close gives you an indication of 2 things - just how bad the coaching is and just how much the chemistry issues are preventing the players from playing anything resembling team ball...

There is a third thing you didn't mention - but it is perhaps rearing its ugly head - TN fans were delusional in their assessment of their recruits and the ranking services may have over-ranked not under ranked them..

 

[toadfoot]

It was actually a great article. DD SAYS all the right things - talks about team, talks about goals for her team, talks about helping LEAD them (Tennessee) to glory again...

"They say we haven't had a marquee player since Candace Parker," said DeShields, who has three years of eligibility remaining. "For Candace to say, 'You're it.' For Chamique to say, 'You're it,' I feel they are my big sisters. It's like being accepted by your elders.

"Every team needs a leader, but I feel like with Tennessee you are always on the team even after you go. All those players, we're still on the team together. It might not be a senior I look up to. It might not be a coach I get my confidence from. But I do get it from my big sisters. For them to say, I can put myself in the same position they are, that's all the confidence I need. I want to be like them."

But there was also some of the "this is what I want for me"..."Personally, I want to be an All-American first team. I want to be SEC player of the year. I don't like second place. I don't like second team. So for me, winning means being considered the best."

Still, nothing out of the ordinary even with those comments - she was probably asked about personal goals. I loved Geno's comment that you quoted - "it was managing all the other stuff that went along with..." - referencing Diamond in his comments with what needed to be "managed". Won't speculate on the board what he meant, but the chemistry issues that have dogged her since her UNC days seem to NOT be what he was referencing. Clearly Tennessee and Holly were not ready to manage the personalities they have that are causing the chemistry issues on the team.

Bottom line is I have no idea what to expect from Tennessee. Their fans believe they have a quartet of top 5 players in the classes those kids came from - Nared, Deshields, Russell and Cooper (regardless of what their HS rankings were). With that kind of talent on paper, Tenn should be a lock for the final 4.

That they aren't even close gives you an indication of 2 things - just how bad the coaching is and just how much the chemistry issues are preventing the players from playing anything resembling team ball...

I might be reading too much into her comments, but the "So for me, winning means being considered the best", sets off some alarm bells. I think for most athletes, winning means, well... winning. She could be the greatest player to ever lace up sneakers and score 40 points/game, but if her team doesn't win, she's not a winner. Problem is, it sounds like she would define that as winning.

 

[Rocket009]

It was actually a great article. DD SAYS all the right things - talks about team, talks about goals for her team, talks about helping LEAD them (Tennessee) to glory again...

"They say we haven't had a marquee player since Candace Parker," said DeShields, who has three years of eligibility remaining. "For Candace to say, 'You're it.' For Chamique to say, 'You're it,' I feel they are my big sisters. It's like being accepted by your elders.

"Every team needs a leader, but I feel like with Tennessee you are always on the team even after you go. All those players, we're still on the team together. It might not be a senior I look up to. It might not be a coach I get my confidence from. But I do get it from my big sisters. For them to say, I can put myself in the same position they are, that's all the confidence I need. I want to be like them."

But there was also some of the "this is what I want for me"..."Personally, I want to be an All-American first team. I want to be SEC player of the year. I don't like second place. I don't like second team. So for me, winning means being considered the best."

Still, nothing out of the ordinary even with those comments - she was probably asked about personal goals. I loved Geno's comment that you quoted - "it was managing all the other stuff that went along with..." - referencing Diamond in his comments with what needed to be "managed". Won't speculate on the board what he meant, but the chemistry issues that have dogged her since her UNC days seem to NOT be what he was referencing. Clearly Tennessee and Holly were not ready to manage the personalities they have that are causing the chemistry issues on the team.

Bottom line is I have no idea what to expect from Tennessee. Their fans believe they have a quartet of top 5 players in the classes those kids came from - Nared, Deshields, Russell and Cooper (regardless of what their HS rankings were). With that kind of talent on paper, Tenn should be a lock for the final 4.

That they aren't even close gives you an indication of 2 things - just how bad the coaching is and just how much the chemistry issues are preventing the players from playing anything resembling team ball...

A couple of things I spotted in the Arkansas game. When DD fouls out - Holly completely ignores her as she walks to the bench. Maybe nothing, but I though it was unusual.

In the post game interview DD is pouting the entire time. Andrea Carter is thoughtful and engaging when talking about the team's performance, DD is letting everyone know what a bad mood she is in. That has to have an effect on the rest of the team.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

It was actually a great article. DD SAYS all the right things - talks about team, talks about goals for her team, talks about helping LEAD them (Tennessee) to glory again...

"They say we haven't had a marquee player since Candace Parker," said DeShields, who has three years of eligibility remaining. "For Candace to say, 'You're it.' For Chamique to say, 'You're it,' I feel they are my big sisters. It's like being accepted by your elders.

"Every team needs a leader, but I feel like with Tennessee you are always on the team even after you go. All those players, we're still on the team together. It might not be a senior I look up to. It might not be a coach I get my confidence from. But I do get it from my big sisters. For them to say, I can put myself in the same position they are, that's all the confidence I need. I want to be like them."

But there was also some of the "this is what I want for me"..."Personally, I want to be an All-American first team. I want to be SEC player of the year. I don't like second place. I don't like second team. So for me, winning means being considered the best."

Still, nothing out of the ordinary even with those comments - she was probably asked about personal goals. I loved Geno's comment that you quoted - "it was managing all the other stuff that went along with..." - referencing Diamond in his comments with what needed to be "managed". Won't speculate on the board what he meant, but the chemistry issues that have dogged her since her UNC days seem to NOT be what he was referencing. Clearly Tennessee and Holly were not ready to manage the personalities they have that are causing the chemistry issues on the team.

Bottom line is I have no idea what to expect from Tennessee. Their fans believe they have a quartet of top 5 players in the classes those kids came from - Nared, Deshields, Russell and Cooper (regardless of what their HS rankings were). With that kind of talent on paper, Tenn should be a lock for the final 4.

That they aren't even close gives you an indication of 2 things - just how bad the coaching is and just how much the chemistry issues are preventing the players from playing anything resembling team ball...

I can say with a high degree of certainty that Diamond will never be the SEC POTY. This year that will either be Tiffany Mitchell or A'ja Wilson and then the next two years will be A'ja Wilson.

 

[msf22b]

.....and she may transfer again. Her bags ae still setting by the door. She never unpacked.

I've heard that talk
but it wouldn't make much sense would it?
Sit out another year?
No way.

 

[Kaizen]

Diamond talks too much. Only half filled water bottle makes lot noise.

 

[Kaizen]

I've heard that talk
but it wouldn't make much sense would it?
Sit out another year?
No way.

I doubt any school will take a second transfer player. A trouble maker will be the same no matter where she goes.

 

[Tonyc]

It simply and has been for the past few years. Tenn has the talent but they don't know how to play as a team. They don't have plays to execute on O or D. They have talent but don't play as a team. Winning is a mystery for Tenn. They game has changed, Tenn hasn't. Tenn has always had the talent but now with all the talent and they cant beat teams with good records well they are not a team . They are an assemblable of talent that doesn't play together. A reflection of the coaching staff that doesn't not change and a reflection of the administration that wont change. If you cant change your people....you have to change your people. Period.

 

[msf22b]

John Adams, a quite impartial local Tennessee writer, has just published an important critique of the the UTenn season.
He comes to a conclusion not unlike mine that Tennessee can lose to a mediocre unranked team but might give Notre Dame problems.

He discusses the coaching issues, the shooting problems and the DeShields dilemma
A good read by an intelligent observer

http://www.knoxnews.com/sports/vols...46-b59c-71f9-e053-0100007ffeb3-365549251.html