Another Example of SEC Mediocrity/Tenn loss

[Nuyoika]

I intend to watch ND/TN with my family while wearing all my UConn gear at once.... with popcorn (maybe some twizzlers and peanut m&ms too) and eyes big as the moon! I had a feeling they would lose last night. So glad I stayed up to watch. I have had SEC Network in my package since its inception... Never bothered to watch because it was just so painful. I tried. I really did. I watched about 5 minutes of the SEC Championship game last year the score was in 29-26 at half time and I just had to change the channel. This year. I am getting my monies worth. I can tell you for sure it is a complete toss up on any night in the SEC. With the fouling and poor shooting its like being at the circus for the first time. I find myself saying wow a lot. The best part is the announcers. I heard one announcer actually say during an SEC game that a certain team was looking "extremely average". I can't remember the last time there has been this much parity. Isn't it just wonderful?

 

[Beemer]

And this is all due to the fact that the SEC and some other conferences (ACC) have learned how to game the system. The NCAA needs to make it clear that having a cupcake OOC to fatten up a team's won-lost record is not going to be rewarded with inflated RPI's and then they need to go about changing the way RPI's are calculated to achieve that result. Good teams in weak conferences should not be penalized as much because they have little or no control over their conference opponents strength, but everyone has a good deal of control over their OOC schedule. There's simply no excuse for conferences like the SEC, that are constantly proclaiming their excellence to play miserable OOC schedules and then be rewarded for it.

Yes I have long since gotten tired of hearing about how tough the SEC/ACC conference schedules are & that's why they schedule cupcake OOC teams. They schedule the cupcakes for one reason & one reason only, because they are cupcakes.

Great avatar, btw.

 

[Orangutan]

Part of it is because Mabrey2 has hit a bit of the freshman wall.

I don't see how that's the case. She had 14 points on 6-10 shooting and 3 steals in 18 minutes last night. Sunday against North Carolina she didn't shoot quite as well (5-14) but still had 15 points, 4 assists, and 4 steals in 22 minutes. Two games ago against Virginia, 15 points on 6-11 shooting, 6 rebounds, and 2 steals in 22 minutes.

She remains 1st on ND in points/per 40 minutes and 2nd in total points (w/ 53.4 FG%, 52.4 3FG%), 2nd in assist rate (3rd in total assists), and 1st in steal rate (and total steals).

 

[Carnac]

There's no such thing as a bad LV loss. They're all good.

cohenzone, you just won the "post of the day" award!!

 

[vtcwbuff]

After a while you have to start feeling sorry for them.
OOPs, sorry, lost my head.

Feel sorry for the players. Wallow in the discomfort of their coaches and fans.

 

[Orangutan]

I wouldn't be surprised if ND runs them ragged. ND has not played well since Turner returned to the lineup...they seem to lack the fluid offense and movement they had when she was out...but they are probably still the best shooting team in the country and I think they'll spread the floor, create some driving lanes for Allen, Cable, Mabry(s) and make it a bad night for UT again.

That's not really true. After the 9-point win over Georgia Tech and 10-point win over Pitt (which prompted the "what's ailing ND?" thread here), ND beat Virginia by 28 in Charlottesville then North Carolina by 34 back at home. Last night was not quite as impressive. They only beat BC by 13 but even then ND led by double-digits for all but 14 seconds of the 2nd half.

Between Turner shaking off rust and gaining confidence and the team readjusting to her, it took about 4 games to get back up to speed with her (St. Joe's, OR St., GA Tech, Pitt). Since the Pitt game when ND shot 37% from the field, ND has shot 49.1%, 50.7% and 48.3% in their last three games. Meanwhile, ND has allowed .63, .72, and .72 points per possession in those games (for reference, VA Tech leads the nation at .68 points per possession allowed, UConn is joint 3rd at .71)

When ND was going small and scoring all those points, the defense was frequently very bad. The offense has not been quite as good since her return but it has been close in the last 3 games and the defense has been vastly better. Admittedly, the competition has been so-so, but the results are encouraging.

 

[toadfoot]

This is Diamond's 3rd year of college. Maybe she's just not that good? Not every top recruit pans out or lives up to the hype.

DeShields is inherently inconsistent. I think it's just who she is.

Frodo can back me up, but years (many) ago we played in a Saturday morning basketball league (full disclosure, I was a pretty good baseball player and I'm a really good senior tennis player, but I was a crappy basketball player) and one of our teammates was the proverbial black hole. Never saw a shot he didn't like and would routinely bomb from 20-25 ft. Amazingly enough, he would actually make one once in a while and I think in his mind that justified the 3 he missed. That's DeShields in a nutshell. I watched the entire Tennessee/Arkansas game last night on SECN replay and some of her turnovers were just complete head scratchers. Perhaps with different coaching she could have been something, but I'll be very surprised if she ever develops much beyond what she is presently. I suspect her WNBA career will be brief or nonexistent unless she does a complete turnaround. She certainly is athletically talented, but right now it's totally unharnessed.

 

[UcMiami]

Here's the box score from Tenn-Arkansas. Mercedes Russell and Bashaara Graves (I wish that kid had been a Husky) were a combined 7-10 with 18 points but they only took 10 shots, well, probably 13 because they got to the foul line. Yet, Diamond DeShields (6-16) and Jaime Nared (2-11) took almost 40% of Tennessee's shots, even though they were shooting only 30% from the field. Two effective post players that are doing damage down low, and DeSheilds and Nared were chucking up low percentage shots? What the hey? These aren't scrubs that played for some awful high school in the middle of nowhere, these are elite players that should know better. In a few of the games, or partial games, that I watched, guards and small forwards don't even look at the post most times. It's bizarre.

I'm torn here. While the Tennessee program can't lose enough for me and a small part of me is enjoying the Tin Foil Hat Brigade's misery, I feel terribly for the players like Graves.

I agree strongly about Graves - have really liked her since watching the USA basketball from a few years ago. It has to be so frustrating operating in the dysfunctional TN system with me first guards and wings.

But I will say one thing about the box score analysis and it pertains to much of the defense Uconn faces as well - if the other team gets back on defense and sets up in a sagging zone with no player more than a couple of feet from the lane, entry passes, drives, and post play are really really hard. You have to have a few players who can consistently hit mid range or deeper shots to force more aggressive perimeter defense, and a team that refuses to be drawn out of that defense can weather a few made jumpers in a row. It is even harder to play against that defense if your post players cannot or will not shoot from 15 feet because they then will not create openings for high low passing. That is one reason Uconn has worked hard with their post players to develop that free throw line extended shot.

The teams that TN has beaten were either monumentally out-talented, could not hold on to the ball against athletic pressure, or did not play a sagging zone defense and usually failed in more than one of those areas.

 

[Carnac]

Not to toot my own horn, but earlier today I had a conversation with fellow BY'er Frodo where I suggested that Arkansas would win despite being about 12 point underdogs. I can't claim that I actually predicted an Arkansas victory, but darn close.

Toadfoot, if you called it, take the credit, I do. It's hard to be right even half the time.

 

[UcMiami]

I used to think this was all on Holly, and I still think she is a bad coach, but ... I think looking at the results and the inconsistency not just game to game but quarter to quarter, there is enough blame to be spread pretty equally around between coaches and players. Again some of that inconsistency goes to what Geno talked about in his last show of needing to give players a chance to develop chemistry on the court by keeping consistent groupings in the game for prolonged periods and the TN coaches seem to work more off a rota system with little consistency. But the effort and concentration of individual players seems to be totally lacking - they play for a few minutes and then just stop putting forth effort. A hot mess.

 

[Bayareahusky]

The situation at Tennessee is a disaster… I do not relish in their misery, as I really feel badly for the players. Especially Graves, who I think is one of the few who really puts it out there…. I have been saying from day 1 when Holly took over in Pat’s last year as coach, when Holly was de facto head coach…. Doing all the game management and coaching….. for the first year or so, gave her the benefit of the doubt and said that it appeared as though she was totally lost…. But it soon became apparent that this was, in fact, the bitter truth. She does not live up to standards as head coach material.


Before this year started, I said the 2 things I really wanted to see were how Mercedes’ feet were, and how the interaction between Holly and DD was….. i.e. was she going to coach Diamond, or let her have free reign ala Meighan. I could have predicted the Diamond – Holly diad being what it is now, but the Mercedes situation surprised me somewhat… In the sense that it appears that her feet are fine…. She just does not have a motor for the upper echelon of WCBB. It seems she operates on the “good enough” theory. I am 6’6”, and I was #1 in the country overall, I must be all right. But of course the USA coaches got production from her this summer… something Holly has not gotten or apparently demanded.


Here are a few quick idle thoughts about where the LVs are…..


- It really surprises me that, although many in TN land have come to realize that their coach is in name only, there are still loyalists…. People who blame the players….. saying things like “coaches do not play the game, they cannot help on the floor”… but all the problems come back to the coach …. Because she has 100% control of the program and thus has total power to fix it. Yes even shot selection, foul shooting, and all that.


- Why does CHW throw her players under the bus at seemingly every post game…. Things like “I do not know what to do … I tell them to do it but they do not listen” Absolutely incredulous…. This is also a cry for help… a blatant ask for someone to fire her…. “I tell them to get in the defensive stance , but they do not want to…” I just do not believe my ears … the things she says…


- What does Pat think? Not that Hart will listen necessarily, but is Pat still solidly behind Holly? Even Pat has to see that Holly cannot teach the game, or at least get players to follow simple instructions. This was Pat’s choice for HC and I wonder if she is still behind her…..


- Where are the assistant coaches in all this? You would think that one of them would say to Holly, Hey Coach, why don’t we try this system on offense? They are not looking good in their positions either….


- Why won’t Holly discipline anyone? Yes I am not there to see the goings on, but I never have seen her get pissed off and sit someone down. Ever.


- What is her method and reasoning of substitutions? It looks so disorganized and without rhyme nor reason.


Of course can go on and on… good time to stop…. I just feel sorry for the players, because it is so obvious it is a rudderless ship.

 

[Waquoit]

I would expect a better played game against ND, but ND should still win.

Exactly, their good game isn't good enough to win.

 

[toadfoot]

While you can game the system some, it isn't quite as easy as you make it out. Some of the highest RPI's that did not make a tourney were teams that did not play strong enough OOC. They do look at that, and also (regardless of RPI flaws) the relative numbers of what they perceive as "good wins" and "bad losses" are factored into seedings as well.

Only UConn plays the number of really tough teams that it does OOC. For many years, Rutgers and Notre Dame when they were in the oBE played fairly tough OOC schedules compared to other major conference teams, although I know RU has decreased the strength.

The problem is that wins/loses is still the most heavily weighted factor and the definition of what's a "good" win and what's a "bad" win gets muddied. Unfortunately I don't know how to see what Sagarin/Massey showed for SOS before conference play started, but I can say with 100% certainty that the SOS of just about every SEC team has improved since then. The SEC and other conferences have learned how to create positive feedback loops with respect to RPI. Their early season cupcake schedules generate relatively high and inflated RPI's. They then play conference schedules where the majority of teams have artificially high RPI's, which then is reflected in artificially inflated numbers of top 25/top 50 teams played and artificially high SOS's.

Just one simple example. Tennessee, according to Sagarin has a 3-3 record against top 25 teams, but one of those wins was against Missouri and there's no way Missouri is a top 25 team. And every other SEC team that's played Missouri gets the same bump. And in turn, those teams' SOS improves. And round and round it goes.

What should happen, is that teams with weak OOC schedules should be penalized, not rewarded. While it may be true that the reward isn't as great as it would be if their schedules were truly good, it's still positive. I suspect this isn't a simple problem to fix, because you want to provide the ability for weaker teams to play top programs to grow the sport, but the NCAA can't continue to allow teams to game the system. As someone correctly pointed out to me the other day, there's a monetary incentive for conferences to get together (read collude) and do this as a conference strategy to get more teams into the NCAA tournament!

 

[ctfjr]

Most painful losses to Uconn: 1995 and 2003 regular seasons.

Which one in '95, The MLK game (1st time meeting of the 2 teams & afterwards 1st time UConn ranked #1) or the FF championship game (the crown is relinquished)

 

[j66kicker]

The situation at Tennessee is a disaster… I do not relish in their misery, as I really feel badly for the players. Especially Graves, who I think is one of the few who really puts it out there…. I have been saying from day 1 when Holly took over in Pat’s last year as coach, when Holly was de facto head coach…. Doing all the game management and coaching….. for the first year or so, gave her the benefit of the doubt and said that it appeared as though she was totally lost…. But it soon became apparent that this was, in fact, the bitter truth. She does not live up to standards as head coach material.


Before this year started, I said the 2 things I really wanted to see were how Mercedes’ feet were, and how the interaction between Holly and DD was….. i.e. was she going to coach Diamond, or let her have free reign ala Meighan. I could have predicted the Diamond – Holly diad being what it is now, but the Mercedes situation surprised me somewhat… In the sense that it appears that her feet are fine…. She just does not have a motor for the upper echelon of WCBB. It seems she operates on the “good enough” theory. I am 6’6”, and I was #1 in the country overall, I must be all right. But of course the USA coaches got production from her this summer… something Holly has not gotten or apparently demanded.


Here are a few quick idle thoughts about where the LVs are…..


- It really surprises me that, although many in TN land have come to realize that their coach is in name only, there are still loyalists…. People who blame the players….. saying things like “coaches do not play the game, they cannot help on the floor”… but all the problems come back to the coach …. Because she has 100% control of the program and thus has total power to fix it. Yes even shot selection, foul shooting, and all that.


- Why does CHW throw her players under the bus at seemingly every post game…. Things like “I do not know what to do … I tell them to do it but they do not listen” Absolutely incredulous…. This is also a cry for help… a blatant ask for someone to fire her…. “I tell them to get in the defensive stance , but they do not want to…” I just do not believe my ears … the things she says…


- What does Pat think? Not that Hart will listen necessarily, but is Pat still solidly behind Holly? Even Pat has to see that Holly cannot teach the game, or at least get players to follow simple instructions. This was Pat’s choice for HC and I wonder if she is still behind her…..


- Where are the assistant coaches in all this? You would think that one of them would say to Holly, Hey Coach, why don’t we try this system on offense? They are not looking good in their positions either….


- Why won’t Holly discipline anyone? Yes I am not there to see the goings on, but I never have seen her get pissed off and sit someone down. Ever.


- What is her method and reasoning of substitutions? It looks so disorganized and without rhyme nor reason.


Of course can go on and on… good time to stop…. I just feel sorry for the players, because it is so obvious it is a rudderless ship.

I relish in their misery. Especially the fans, but no sympathy for the coaches or team either. Like Meyers7 said, they chose their lot. It's just a sports thing - I don't wish them to be run over by a truck, or for their kids to starve. But sports-wise they deserve every ounce of misery they are getting.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Of course Holly deserves blame but I think this is also a poorly constructed team.

Damn, Bgillon, who constructed this team? She didn't inherit it.

 

[johnnyc]

I just feel sorry for the players, because it is so obvious it is a rudderless ship.

Not many Tenn fans around at the moment. You seem to be closet one available lol. Why no possibility that it's a player problem?

Harper visited Tennessee two weeks ago, and while she liked the talent, the palpable chemistry issues within the team was something Harper noticed, sources told Swish Appeal.

http://www.swishappeal.com/2015/12/13/9867322/linnae-harper-transfers-ohio-state-kentucky

 

[Bayareahusky]

Not many Tenn fans around at the moment. You seem to be closet one available lol. Why no possibility that it's a player problem?

Hah !! Good one.... I am a proud UConn grad, and insufferable Huskie fan..... I hate the stuff that went on with UTenn 10 years ago and it still can ignite a hatred, but aside from that, I just feel these gals were sold a bill of goods..... they are getting next to no coaching..... at least they are getting free education

 

[mrmojack]

After losing to Arkansas last night the LV board is blowing up and things aren't going to get any
better in the near future. They go on the road to:

1/18 @#3 Notre Dame
1/25 @#9 @Kentucky
1/28 @#7 Miss St

They could have 8 losses by the end of the month. They have a total of ZERO recruits coming in
next year. They may have to bring in some JUCO's and hope they don't have any transfers.

 

[HuskyNan]

- Where are the assistant coaches in all this? You would think that one of them would say to Holly, Hey Coach, why don’t we try this system on offense? They are not looking good in their positions either….

A few years a well respected assistant was brought in, a woman named Jolette Law. If the name is familiar, it's because she was an assistant at Rutgers during the years where an organized offense was optional. (No offense to our RU friends)

 

[johnnyc]

they are getting next to no coaching...

Warlick is probably running the same program that Summitt ran just maybe not as forcibly. It's quite possible Warlick may indeed be coaching (granted the only way she knows) but all it takes is one or two uncoachable players to infect the whole team if left to do so.

 

[Bayareahusky]

A few years a well respected assistant was brought in, a woman named Jolette Law. If the name is familiar, it's because she was an assistant at Rutgers during the years where an organized offense was optional. (No offense to our RU friends)

Yes, and Elzy was supposed to be a world beater, and Craig very good at developing post players.... I just have not seen any of it.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Warlick is probably running the same program that Summitt ran just maybe not as forcibly. It's quite possible Warlick may indeed be coaching (granted the only way she knows) but all it takes is one or two uncoachable players to infect the whole team if left to do so.

Oh point well taken..... but i do not think it matters..... because i think Holly demands nothing of them..... there are no consequences for disobeying her wishes.....

I think of a woman from our old neighborhood who would take her 6 year old to the town pool, and when it was time for dinner..... and she called her daughter out of the pool, Melissa wouldn't come out. 20 minutes later it was " Please Melissa time to get out of the pool!!" and over and over...... If the mother were Holly she would say "I tell her what to do but she doesn't want to do it"

 

[JoePgh]

You forgot the rousing #20 Florida loss to GA at home where the teams were a combined 25 of 45 from the free throw line and 7 of 35 from three.
Of the 14 SEC teams playing tonight only 4 scored more than 66 points, while 6 failed to reach 60 points

25 of 45 on free throws? That was the result of the superb level of free throw defense in the SEC.

 

[MilfordHusky]

wow...starting 5 had 3 assists and 17 turnovers....just horrible team play ....I can't believe that could have ever happened under Pat S

Hey, Alex, is a 3:17 ratio bad?