Angel Not Playing Tonight. Maybe Suspended Indefinitely

[sarals24]

Well, the WNBA didn't want to compete with the NBA or the overseas leagues because they can't pay the players enough. So they knew the issues with the Olympics when they developed the league. And lest we forget, they capitalized greatly on the Olympics and the popularity of the women's team when they founded the league.

Again, I don't understand your issue. Because they are "claiming" injury? Who? And how exactly is the WNBA suffering? They would suffer a lot more if players stopped playing in their league, which they could very easily do. I think it's BS to say that they are responsible for growing the game and have somehow shirked that responsibility by taking a few weeks off, (and only a few players have really taken any time off around the Olympics).

 

[jermy201]

It's a players league. Coaches are expendable at the end of the day. Dah well. *shrugs*

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I DO think the whole business could be better handled by the W. Players are either injured or burned out or disappointed not to be playing for Geno or whatever, and it is impacting things. I don't have any answer. I think most of the posters in this thread are not wrong, just arguing different sides of the same coin. Apparently, for the sake of arguing.

And everyone is getting way too sensitive. I saw someone criticizing an outsiders post saying Geno said something. First, he did ... I read it on the Boneyard. Second, there was nothing wrong with what Geno said . . . it doesn't even approach controversial. Third, the poster wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it, just using it for his own purposes. Legit usage of a public statement.

Where has the civility gone?

 

[easttexastrash]

Actually, I don't believe that is your opinion. In fact, I don't believe you have constructed an opinion on this topic. I do believe you have constructed an argument. I also believe you enjoy your contrarian BY persona. So, snark on, ett... snark on... that is, until the peasants storm your castle...

Just my opinion.

Your Ol' Pal Boo

That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Phil]

Plus, it wouldn't be fair to the college teams either if players were to give up their summer to play in the Olympics. What if they get injured? I bet you would be livid if Griner and Simms both were somehow hurt. I know UConn fans would be very worried watching their players. Obviously it's a risk to the pros as well, but as I am more of a WCBB fan than pro, I for one would not want to see anything happen to a player who would obviously be vital to her college team. College players, no matter how strong and seasoned, are not professionals, but would be playing against teams with players who have been pros for years. Not worth the risk, IMO.

Another option is to drop basketball from the Olympics.

 

[msf22b]

According to UCMiami's excellent chart, large number of WNBA woman, returned from the Olympics unable or unwilling to play (at least not immediately). A portion of those players who had played through nagging injuries, refuse to do so now. There is nothing new or controversial about this statement, it is just a summery of what everyone knows.

But this information does not bode well for the league. The WNBA pay scale is so inadequate that the woman always have to juggle whether the fame and positive publicity of playing gained in performing in the most competitive league in the world justifies the wear and tear on their bodies in the light of the much greater compensation received elsewhere. The Olympics provided enough positive coverage for now, thank you, and we are discovering some very reluctant warriors returning (or not) to the grind.

Note the strong correlation between the contending teams and returned players (not perfect but strong). For those playing for a championship there is stronger incentive, for the others less so.

Down the road, this league is looking at significant trouble if it cannot modify its appeal and business plan.

 

[msf22b]

Mechelle making more or less the same points form Liz G's perspective in a new piece.

http://espn.go.com/wnba/story/_/id/8314901/wnba-liz-cambage-prepares-pro-stint-china

 

[msf22b]

Mechelle making more or less the same points form Liz G's perspective in a new piece.

http://espn.go.com/wnba/story/_/id/8314901/wnba-liz-cambage-prepares-pro-stint-china

 

[Scotter]

1. That chart ignores that most of the players that are sitting out with the same injuries prior to the Olympics. What is the control that the chart is being compared to? You know the same type of complaints about the Olympics and World Championships get raised on the NBA side too full of anecdotal evidence of player injuries. When someone actually truly studied the impact of playing the national team what do you think the conclusion was?
2. In the NBA it is just as common for players to play through injuries when on a contending team and sit out on a lottery bound team.
3. This is an unique year where there are both the Olympics and a huge potential in the following draft making it especially compelling for teams not of a championship caliber not to try and squeeze out every last win because of the potential reward in the draft. Teams in the NBA take similar measures all the time for a much smaller chance at getting a player like Brittany Griner.

WNBA is less than ideal, but so are you ungrounded prognostications.

According to UCMiami's excellent chart, large number of WNBA woman, returned from the Olympics unable or unwilling to play (at least not immediately). A portion of those players who had played through nagging injuries, refuse to do so now. There is nothing new or controversial about this statement, it is just a summery of what everyone knows.

But this information does not bode well for the league. The WNBA pay scale is so inadequate that the woman always have to juggle whether the fame and positive publicity of playing gained in performing in the most competitive league in the world justifies the wear and tear on their bodies in the light of the much greater compensation received elsewhere. The Olympics provided enough positive coverage for now, thank you, and we are discovering some very reluctant warriors returning (or not) to the grind.

Note the strong correlation between the contending teams and returned players (not perfect but strong). For those playing for a championship there is stronger incentive, for the others less so.

Down the road, this league is looking at significant trouble if it cannot modify its appeal and business plan.

 

[UCONNfan1]

And everyone is getting way too sensitive. I saw someone criticizing an outsiders post saying Geno said something. First, he did ... I read it on the Boneyard. Second, there was nothing wrong with what Geno said . . . it doesn't even approach controversial. Third, the poster wasn't saying there was anything wrong with it, just using it for his own purposes. Legit usage of a public statement.

Where has the civility gone?

Are you referring to the comments about the women's national team not getting enough respect? Because easttexas was talking about Geno saying DIANA wasn't getting the respect she deserved. In truth, Diana was talking specifically about the Women's National Team and all they have accomplished, and Geno agreed with her.

No Respect - Women's Team feels overlooked

If we win another gold medal it’s not going to be a huge story,” he said. “I want to make it a huge story because the respect that Dee’s talking about that these kids deserve for having done what they’ve done and been able to do it the way they do it should be appreciated. Greatness should be appreciated and not taken for granted."​

​

Now if there are some comments out there where Geno is specifically talking about Diana (the player or person) not getting enough resepct, I'm not aware of it.

 

[UcMiami]

1. That chart ignores that most of the players that are sitting out with the same injuries prior to the Olympics. What is the control that the chart is being compared to? You know the same type of complaints about the Olympics and World Championships get raised on the NBA side too full of anecdotal evidence of player injuries. When someone actually truly studied the impact of playing the national team what do you think the conclusion was?

Just to clarify - I just posted that to show that a number of WNBA players coming back from the Olympics were having issues - and was not trying to compare it to anything - saying it is not just Diana not playing for Merc and Angel having issues in Atlanta. I respect all these players and do not envy the life they are 'forced' to lead to pursue their craft when compared to most other pro athletes.

 

[easttexastrash]

Mechelle making more or less the same points form Liz G's perspective in a new piece.

http://espn.go.com/wnba/story/_/id/8314901/wnba-liz-cambage-prepares-pro-stint-china

This article magnifies the point that I was making, which is that the WNBA is suffering when these top players overextend themselves and then they can't or won't honor their commitments to the WNBA. The WNBA is not very strong and needs its stars to show up and play, even if not 100%.

At least Cambage just came out and said it. But Tulsa certainly needs her. They are going to lose some ticket sales due to her absence.

Maybe the WNBA is destined not to last due to the low salaries. It is an embarrassment that a player can make 10 times in China what they can make in the US.

Can you imagine if the US Open paid tennis players $150,000 for winning the tournament while the Aussie, French and Wimbledon paid $1.5 million? Female players did have to fight for equal pay at the majors. The WNBA player may at some point be forced to refuse to play if their salaries don't increase.

 

[meganmatthews]

You will soon see the WNBA either fold or become a side show with second rate players. You can make twice the money over seas and they treat you like superstars. What a joke.

 

[easttexastrash]

Just to clarify - I just posted that to show that a number of WNBA players coming back from the Olympics were having issues - and was not trying to compare it to anything - saying it is not just Diana not playing for Merc and Angel having issues in Atlanta. I respect all these players and do not envy the life they are 'forced' to lead to pursue their craft when compared to most other pro athletes.

Is it that unique to basketball players that they have to travel the world to make a decent living at their sport? Other than tennis and golf, which other sports can women make top dollar if they stay primarily in the US? Even athletes in those sports have to travel the world to get a good payday. At least team-sport athletes get to live in one city. Athletes in individual sports probably have to travel much more.

 

[easttexastrash]

You will soon see the WNBA either fold or become a side show with second rate players. You can make twice the money over seas and they treat you like superstars. What a joke.

I agree. The league pays low and thus the players may develop half-hearted attitudes toward the league. This post-Olympic sabbatical period may be the first real sign of this.

 

[alexrgct]

The thing is, I don't believe there's a women's professional league that has a sounder business model than he wnba...and the wnba relies on the profitability of the nba in its own right. The overseas salaries are more a product of there being owners who like to have a winning WBB team for its own sake than they are WBB being super profitable in Europe. How sustainable that all is remains to be seen.

 

[easttexastrash]

The thing is, I don't believe there's a women's professional league that has a sounder business model than he wnba...and the wnba relies on the profitability of the nba in its own right. The overseas salaries are more a product of there being owners who like to have a winning WBB team for its own sake than they are WBB being super profitable in Europe. How sustainable that all is remains to be seen.

Very good points.

If I had the money, I'd pay a lot to have Bird, DT, Griner, LJ and Catchings as my starting 5. That's MY dream team starting 5.

 

[UcMiami]

Wow - we went to complaining about a few athletes who may be exhausted to trashing the league! OK - I do not think any league can survive if it depends on the actions/health of 5 or 10 of its players. Tulsa is a terrible team this year, the Mercury have been devastated by injuries this year. Atlanta - seems to be imploding a bit. BUT - went to the Sun/Sky game on Sunday and that was a big crowd - with two USA players not playing (Asjha and Sylvia.) MN, LA, CT, SA,IN teams are playing great ball. Seattle is suddenly healthy and scares everybody. Is the league secure - absolutely not, but it is probably in as good or better shape as it has ever been, and the product is getting better every year. I love watching MN play. I love watching Tina and Sue play - would probably enjoy seeing LA and SA play if I ever caught their games.
So ... is it perfect - no. Is what has happened in the last two weeks or in the next four going to decide what happens in this league - no. Is the break for the Olympics ideal for the league - no, but does having twenty Olympic athletes playing in the league help - YES. And if 5 of them can't or will not - it still is better than not having any Olympic athletes and it will not be the casue of the league folding if it does sometime in the future.
And by the way - I think the Sun are as close as we get to a European situation - doubt the Mohegan Tribe are making anything on the team, but they had 1000s of extra people coming through their casino on Sunday, and I bet (yes) a few of them dropped some money in the slots or the games.
At some level cities and arenas may put some skin in the game as well as they're making some cash on the crowds that would not be there but for the WNBA games.

 

[easttexastrash]

Wow - we went to complaining about a few athletes who may be exhausted to trashing the league! OK - I do not think any league can survive if it depends on the actions/health of 5 or 10 of its players. Tulsa is a terrible team this year, the Mercury have been devastated by injuries this year. Atlanta - seems to be imploding a bit. BUT - went to the Sun/Sky game on Sunday and that was a big crowd - with two USA players not playing (Asjha and Sylvia.) MN, LA, CT, SA,IN teams are playing great ball. Seattle is suddenly healthy and scares everybody. Is the league secure - absolutely not, but it is probably in as good or better shape as it has ever been, and the product is getting better every year. I love watching MN play. I love watching Tina and Sue play - would probably enjoy seeing LA and SA play if I ever caught their games.
So ... is it perfect - no. Is what has happened in the last two weeks or in the next four going to decide what happens in this league - no. Is the break for the Olympics ideal for the league - no, but does having twenty Olympic athletes playing in the league help - YES. And if 5 of them can't or will not - it still is better than not having any Olympic athletes and it will not be the casue of the league folding if it does sometime in the future.
And by the way - I think the Sun are as close as we get to a European situation - doubt the Mohegan Tribe are making anything on the team, but they had 1000s of extra people coming through their casino on Sunday, and I bet (yes) a few of them dropped some money in the slots or the games.
At some level cities and arenas may put some skin in the game as well as they're making some cash on the crowds that would not be there but for the WNBA games.

Well said. I love having the WNBA to watch. I want these players to play to help secure the future of the league and not put it at risk.

I would be highly disappointed if BG couldn't play in the US. That holds true for the next generation. I hope the players realize how important their dedication is to the next generation.

 

[Scotter]

The Sun were the first team to publicly report a profit even without counting any of the gambling. Although there is no doubt the Sun are just happy to get potential gamblers in the building and would probably be perfectly happy operating the Sun at a reasonable loss.

The closest thing to a European situation is actually the American college system because there is no corresponding college athletic system in Europe. The money spent on coaches' salaries and player scholarships is artificially high and heavily subsidized largely due to government mandates, despite the majority of programs generating little to no revenue and only a few programs out of hundreds coming even close to breaking even. And within that system there are huge inequities in the resources and subsidies available to individual teams. Like Europe and unlike the WNBA the labor market is essentially open. Programs can only offer scholarship instead of a salary, but outside of that programs are free to spend as much as they want on their players. Charter flights, foreign trips, video game systems in the lounge area, etc. Like Europe most of the basketball players are on endless bus rides, but a few programs treat their players like superstars. You have national leagues which operate much like college conferences and then the Euroleague is effectively out of conference play and ending in the equivalent in the NCAA tournament.

And by the way - I think the Sun are as close as we get to a European situation - doubt the Mohegan Tribe are making anything on the team, but they had 1000s of extra people coming through their casino on Sunday, and I bet (yes) a few of them dropped some money in the slots or the games.

 

[easttexastrash]

The Sun were the first team to publicly report a profit even without counting any of the gambling. Although there is no doubt the Sun are just happy to get potential gamblers in the building and would probably be perfectly happy operating the Sun at a reasonable loss.

The closest thing to a European situation is actually the American college system because there is no corresponding college athletic system in Europe. The money spent on coaches' salaries and player scholarships is artificially high and heavily subsidized largely due to government mandates, despite the majority of programs generating little to no revenue and only a few programs out of hundreds coming even close to breaking even. And within that system there are huge inequities in the resources and subsidies available to individual teams. Like Europe and unlike the WNBA the labor market is essentially open. Programs can only offer scholarship instead of a salary, but outside of that programs are free to spend as much as they want on their players. Charter flights, foreign trips, video game systems in the lounge area, etc. Like Europe most of the basketball players are on endless bus rides, but a few programs treat their players like superstars. You have national leagues which operate much like college conferences and then the Euroleague is effectively out of conference play and ending in the equivalent in the NCAA tournament.

Great insight and perception.

 

[CL82]

Eh, I don't know, I mean there no way anyone is stealing that monitor.

 

[UcMiami]

The Sun were the first team to publicly report a profit even without counting any of the gambling. Although there is no doubt the Sun are just happy to get potential gamblers in the building and would probably be perfectly happy operating the Sun at a reasonable loss.

Thanks - I suspect though if you looked closely at their and other teams' financials you would find the Sun expenses related to their rent of the arena was significantly different (read lower) than the other teams. That was one of the major reasons they ended up their when they moved the franchise.

Edit and correction - in my earlier post I confused the Tribe with the Team - The Mohegan Tribe does not own the team. What they did was put together an offer to the team owners to entice them to locate at their arena - something that I referred to in that post regarding the possibility of arenas/cities putting 'skin' in the game. Arena costs are a significant part of the overhead of operating any team.

 

[UcMiami]

Is it that unique to basketball players that they have to travel the world to make a decent living at their sport? Other than tennis and golf, which other sports can women make top dollar if they stay primarily in the US? Even athletes in those sports have to travel the world to get a good payday. At least team-sport athletes get to live in one city. Athletes in individual sports probably have to travel much more.

There really isn't anything comparable to WBB - a team sport with two seasons, one in the USA and one overseas. In individual sports (and things like beach VB) the athletes have a year around home where they do all their practice, and then travel to specific events and they can choose not to play in specific events whenever they feel like it - big difference from living 5 months in the US and 7 months overseas. I am not saying being a pro athlete in any sport is easy, but I do not think any other pro sport has quite the demands that WBB does.

 

[alexrgct]

Thanks - I suspect though if you looked closely at their and other teams' financials you would find the Sun expenses related to their rent of the arena was significantly different (read lower) than the other teams. That was one of the major reasons they ended up their when they moved the franchise.

Edit and correction - in my earlier post I confused the Tribe with the Team - The Mohegan Tribe does not own the team. What they did was put together an offer to the team owners to entice them to locate at their arena - something that I referred to in that post regarding the possibility of arenas/cities putting 'skin' in the game. Arena costs are a significant part of the overhead of operating any team.

Yes, the Sun are fairly unique, as their facilities costs are lower than most. Being in a casino also helps boost attendance because an indoor sport played during the summer isn't very appealing in regions where it gets cold in the winter. That notwithstanding, people go to the casinos year-round. Finally, the Sun have a number of UConn alumnae on the roster, and it's unique that there is a nearby WCBB program that a) has enough WNBA-caliber players to feed into that league and b) is popular enough that people cared if they did.

Two other teams declared a profit in 2011, per David Stern, though he didn't specify who they were. Their model may be one other teams can emulate.