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All Hail Derek Jeter

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RoyDodger- - - The players mentioned are out because they chose to be out by cheating! If this leaves baseball's legacy wanting then that's their problem! You don't reward cheating, so it makes cheating worth-while because eventually you'll be forgiven or forgotten.
Life is really simple, you have two choices, the right way or the wrong way, NO SECOND CHANCES! You screw up you're gone!
There should be an area put aside in Cooperstown, with a large plaque that states from these dates to these dates certain players (not named) chose to use PED's to pad their stats and there were players in 1919 and the 1970's and 1980's that gambled and they are both banned from the Hall of Fame and Baseball!

rvwsleep- - - Very good question and maybe adding to their plaque that they subsequently were found to have used drugs to attain admission to the HofF might be an answer.

Fishy- - - Roger Maris NOT being in the Hall is a travesty! But he's not in because the voters are stupid, not for anything Roger did! I saw Maris many times while growing up in the Bronx and he was a 5 tool player, hit, hit for power, run, throw, & defense! He could have easily been a .300 hitter but sacrificed avg. for power in Yankee Stadium! And the fact that his 61 was clean and Bonds, Sosa & McGuire have "passed" him on drugs stinks!
As far as Rose goes he made his bed now he has to lie in the muck! His ego put him banned from baseball! He has no-one to blame but himself! Now he's crying, "forgive me, everyone should get a 2nd chance!"

After everything that's happened with PED's, if your now caught drugging you're banned from baseball even on first offense in the minors or majors! No 50 games then 100, then out!
 
Here's the problem. The HoF is already full of players who took PED's. Starting at least in the 1960's, lots of players were using PED's. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines toward the end of his career.
(In 1973, at the age of 39, Hank had his best HR to at bat ratio of his entire career. 40 HR's in 392 AB's).
You can see the problem baseball has. Where do you draw the line ? Was it ok to take amphetamines but not steroids ? Penalise only those who have tested positive for a banned substance ? Very few of the players who have taken PED's have tested positive.
As you can see, I have plenty of questions but very few good answers.
One writer's dilemma
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8769398/a-writer-gives-hall-fame-vote
 
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RSHERMVIKES said:
RoyDodger- - - The players mentioned are out because they chose to be out by cheating! If this leaves baseball's legacy wanting then that's their problem! You don't reward cheating, so it makes cheating worth-while because eventually you'll be forgiven or forgotten.
Life is really simple, you have two choices, the right way or the wrong way, NO SECOND CHANCES! You screw up you're gone!
There should be an area put aside in Cooperstown, with a large plaque that states from these dates to these dates certain players (not named) chose to use PED's to pad their stats and there were players in 1919 and the 1970's and 1980's that gambled and they are both banned from the Hall of Fame and Baseball!
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I thought I made it clear that I'm fully aware of the cheating. Who isn't? But the issue is about what you refer to as a "reward." Obviously, the current voters see the HOF in that way. I have trouble with that. I believe the Hall was intended to be a reflection of baseball history and fame. Have you ever been to Cooperstown? Aside from the plaques, it's all about baseball history from the myth of Abner Doubleday to the present. Leaving out some of the top players of all-time (and some based on suspicion only) would be like teaching history and consciously leaving out various troubled times in history because it's distasteful.
 
RoyDodger- - - -I think the majority of fans, players, etc. think of it as a museum but more than that rewarding the games greatest players for what thay brought to the table! Present members of the H of F have openly said they DO NOT want cheaters/druggies inducted and will not vote for them! They don't want those cheaters names connected with the Hall! So it means a lot to the members that it stays clean!
 
rvwsleep- - - Thanks for the great article! MLB & voters have to come up with a mission statement and clarify what is or isn't out of bounds! My personal feeling is stated above but I agree that there is too much grey areas that is misunderstood! Such as, is a pitcher eligible for both the CY YOUNG Award AND the MVP or just CYA?
 
rvwsleep- - - And I do realize that the Hall is far from PURE at the present time! It is quite a ? that has to be addressed at some time!
 
rvwsleep said:
Here's the problem. The HoF is already full of players who took PED's. Starting at least in the 1960's, lots of players were using PED's. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines toward the end of his career.
(In 1973, at the age of 39, Hank had his best HR to at bat ratio of his entire career. 40 HR's in 392 AB's).
You can see the problem baseball has. Where do you draw the line ? Was it ok to take amphetamines but not steroids ? Penalise only those who have tested positive for a banned substance ? Very few of the players who have taken PED's have tested positive.
As you can see, I have plenty of questions but very few good answers.
One writer's dilemma
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8769398/a-writer-gives-hall-fame-vote
Expand ...
If using amphetamines kept you out of the HOF then Cooperstown would be virtually empty. Greenies used to be standard fare every day, including dissolved in the clubhouse coffee. Hence players went out late at night and slept late in the mornings. Possibly there is some performance enhancement in terms of concentration and focus, but amphetamines don't make you bigger, stronger, faster, etc.
 
j66kicker said:
If using amphetamines kept you out of the HOF then Cooperstown would be virtually empty. Greenies used to be standard fare every day, including dissolved in the clubhouse coffee. Hence players went out late at night and slept late in the mornings. Possibly there is some performance enhancement in terms of concentration and focus, but amphetamines don't make you bigger, stronger, faster, etc.
Expand ...

Chris Davis of the Orioles and Cameron Maybin of the Padres were each suspended for 25 games for use of amphetamines.
 
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j66kicker said:
If using amphetamines kept you out of the HOF then Cooperstown would be virtually empty. Greenies used to be standard fare every day, including dissolved in the clubhouse coffee. Hence players went out late at night and slept late in the mornings. Possibly there is some performance enhancement in terms of concentration and focus, but amphetamines don't make you bigger, stronger, faster, etc.
Expand ...

Sorry, but that doesn't wash. It's ok if the PED's that you take add a few home runs but not a lot of home runs ? If it didn't help their performance, they wouldn't have taken them. That's the problem I have with the voting standards. As you said "Cooperstown would be virtually empty" if you excluded players who took amphetamines. Do you think some of those already in the HoF, who have been adamant about excluding PED users, might have taken Greenies during their playing days ? They both cheated, the difference is only a matter of degree.
 
rvwsleep said:
Sorry, but that doesn't wash. It's ok if the PED's that you take add a few home runs but not a lot of home runs ? If it didn't help their performance, they wouldn't have taken them. That's the problem I have with the voting standards. As you said "Cooperstown would be virtually empty" if you excluded players who took amphetamines. Do you think some of those already in the HoF, who have been adamant about excluding PED users, might have taken Greenies during their playing days ? They both cheated, the difference is only a matter of degree.
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I'm not advocating amphetamines, just saying they enhance performance, if at all, in a much different and subtler way than anabolic steroids. And also that many, if not most, major league players took them routinely for at least 50 years.
 
j66kicker said:
I'm not advocating amphetamines, just saying they enhance performance, if at all, in a much different and subtler way than anabolic steroids. And also that many, if not most, major league players took them routinely for at least 50 years.
Expand ...

Look at the players now vs back then. I mean something is going on and its not all in the gym. It's beginning to look like football more and more.......the A's have some monsters. Even Reddick is a larger kid than he was with the Sox. Maybe they work out harder but I'm guessing there's more to the story and it's not anything amphetamines do.
 
mauconnfan said:
Look at the players now vs back then. I mean something is going on and its not all in the gym. It's beginning to look like football more and more..the A's have some monsters. Even Reddick is a larger kid than he was with the Sox. Maybe they work out harder but I'm guessing there's more to the story and it's not anything amphetamines do.
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They do work out harder. Increased testosterone levels allow shorter recovery times, allowing users to do the same resistance workouts every day instead of every other day. The testing is for elevated levels, indicating clear abuse. These levels are well known and it is well known how to keep one's T just under the testing threshold.

It's a joke, just like it was a joke that MLB claimed they didn't know what was going on until around the time of the Mitchell Report. It took a buffoon like Jose Canseco to force them to act like they were pulling their heads part way out of the sand. The sad thing is competition for high-paying major league jobs means steroid use starts at very young ages.
 
It really started to get out of control and VERY widespread in the late 80s.
 
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