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Adamec: lots of info from Bria Hartley in the JI

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Exactly! The game isn't won in the first four minutes, and I can't recall a game where Uconn was down by an insurmountable lead before the first time out.


There have been lots of times when the player off the bench comes in to spark the offense. I don't think that translates into "if they started they would automatically shoot well and therefore we should start them". Honestly, having played both roles and also coached, players feed off each other on the court and if one or two players start off shooting poorly, the whole starting five can feed off that. (Also vice versa, obviously).

So for a player like KML to be able to sit and watch the first three or four minutes, see what's working, what isn't working, where she can get shots...that is HUGELY beneficial to a team. (If they have the luxury to sit a player like KML, or Stewart, which UConn does.)

Starting isn't the be-all, end-all. It's often times kids who know the system and can stay calm amidst the pressure of starting in front of a lot of people or a hostile crowd. Really, who is on the court at the end of a game is much more telling.
 
doggydaddy said:
I guess I don't understand why starting Stewart instead of Lewis is for the overall good of the team. If they both get 25-30 minutes, what is the difference? Stewart will be a nightmare no mattter if she is starting or 1st off the bench.
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The simplest answer why Stewart starting is better for the overall good of the team is rotational balance. Reducing the argument to Lewis starting versus Stewart ignores the rest of the forest. Are Kaleena and Breanna minutes the only concern? Isn't Morgan Tuck likely to deserve significant minutes? Didn't Kiah Stokes show enough to deserve minutes in competitive games?

Start Kaleena in a four guard lineup and you are at a minimum taking 8-10 minutes in playing time away from the post players as Geno is unlikely to sub regularly before the 1st television timeout. Given the talent of the post players this season that doesn't seem like what's best for the team. Breanna will still get her 25-30 minutes, but someone else that is deserving will miss out.

Having 3 quality reserve players coming off the bench for 2 positions in Breanna, Morgan, and Kiah also makes little sense. (A year or two down the road maybe Breanna and Morgan are both on the court at the forwards with Stef or Kiah at center, but it is not a good idea as freshman. Perimeter defense is typically the hardest thing to adapt to when changing levels in basketball. Outside of Kelly Faris freshman guards almost universally struggle defensively even if he they come with a reputation for being a good defender. Asking freshman post players to guard college perimeter players is not a good idea even if they are super talented. Someone as talented as Maya struggled significantly with it when she was forced into it as a freshman. ) By starting Breanna you get those 8-10 minutes back for Morgan and Kiah, and you have two post players backing up two post players.

And by balancing that the rest of the rotation balances itself by providing another more experienced backup at guard for the 3 perimeter positions. Giving the team 2 or 3 backups at those positions instead of 1 or 2 depending on the play of Moriah and Brianna. Kaleena likely continues to fill the 6th man role as Geno prefers it with a guard/wing that is instant offense. Breanna has a huge impact on the game, but she's not really that instant impact scorer that Geno favors. Maya was something of an exception as a freshman 6th man that wasn't a guard, but he had five returning starters and Maya did have a burning desire to score immediately. He could still start Kaleena too, but I suspect Geno feels differently about demoting a senior from the starting lineup than he does promoting a freshman into the starting lineup over a sophomore. That is where he does reward seniority. Starting Breanna provides rotational balance that I don't think Geno will ignore because it will make the team function better.
 
I agree with everything you wrote, and I still think Breanna will start. And I also don't believe that would contradict anything you wrote.
sarals24 said:
Exactly! The game isn't won in the first four minutes, and I can't recall a game where Uconn was down by an insurmountable lead before the first time out.


There have been lots of times when the player off the bench comes in to spark the offense. I don't think that translates into "if they started they would automatically shoot well and therefore we should start them". Honestly, having played both roles and also coached, players feed off each other on the court and if one or two players start off shooting poorly, the whole starting five can feed off that. (Also vice versa, obviously).

So for a player like KML to be able to sit and watch the first three or four minutes, see what's working, what isn't working, where she can get shots...that is HUGELY beneficial to a team. (If they have the luxury to sit a player like KML, or Stewart, which UConn does.)

Starting isn't the be-all, end-all. It's often times kids who know the system and can stay calm amidst the pressure of starting in front of a lot of people or a hostile crowd. Really, who is on the court at the end of a game is much more telling.
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HuskyNan said:
The more I hear about Morgan, the more she sounds like Asjha - both in terms of skills and in temperament. Me likey!
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How about Tamika Williams (Raymond) with range. Either way likey VERY much.
 
Has there ever been a case where the opposing coach actually got pissed at the other for actually making substitutions to remove the starters? This year may be a first :p
 
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ucdt3 said:
Mark this down as my guess for Day 1...
(if everyone's healthy)

Starters...
PG: Bria Hartley
SG: Caroline Doty
SF: Kelly Faris
PF: Breanna Stewart
C: Stefanie Dolson

6th Man: Kaleena M. Lewis

Back-up Guards: Brianna Banks and Moriah Jefferson
Back-up Posts: Kiah Stokes and Morgan Tuck

Garbage Minutes/Foul Trouble/Injuries: Heather Buck and Lauren Engeln
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I'll take that bet any day of the week.
Hartley-Doty-Faris-KML-Dolson
 
bruinbball said:
Has there ever been a case where the opposing coach actually got pissed at the other for actually making substitutions to remove the starters? This year may be a first :p
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I was thinking along similar lines today when I thought about garbage time at the end of blowout games this upcoming season, and who we would put out there on the court.

So let's see:

Most likely you'd have Banks or Jefferson running the point, LE at the 2, Buck at the 5. Then what? Probably Morgan at the 3 and maybe Kiah at the 4 so she can work on her face-up game? If not Kiah, then Morgan at the 4 and what---KML at the 3? Or Stewart just because she's a frosh? (I can just hear the howls from opposing coaches at that idea.)

I concur with bruinbball.... opposing coaches will be saying, "Thanks a lot, Geno!" even with our garbage time lineup!! To which Geno will reply, "Sorry, but we got no scrubs !!!"

:D ....#noScrubs

 
Much of this discussion has focused on who will be the, um, "sixth man" or, more accurately, the first player off the bench. Time for a refresher on this topic.

Red Auerbach, whose coaching credentials are well documented, is the guy who invented the concept of having an extraordinarily talented player to start the game on the bench, violating all coaching precepts then in existence.

Red was simply smarter than all those other coaches. He wanted the Celtics to get a distinct boost from the first substitution (usually about halfway through the first quarter) as the opposing team brought in a lesser talent to replace a starter.

The first famed "sixth man" was Frank Ramsey, who actually preferred to come off the bench. He did it for 9 years, averaged 13.6 ppg, played on 7 NBA championship teams, and is in the Hall of Fame.

Next came the legendary John Havlicek who, like Ramsey, could play multiple positions. Thus, Red could sub Hondo in front- or backcourt, for a guy with a cold hand or one with a couple quick fouls, or to create a matchup problem. Looking back, Diana and Maya and Kaleena have provided Geno with similar flexibility.

Havlicek was not "sixth man" for his entire career, which was a good one. In 16 seasons, he averaged 20.8 ppg, 8 NBA championships, and Hall of Fame.

It will be interesting to see which Husky is anointed to be FOB. (First Off the Bench)
 
Scotter said:
The simplest answer why Stewart starting is better for the overall good of the team is rotational balance. Reducing the argument to Lewis starting versus Stewart ignores the rest of the forest. Are Kaleena and Breanna minutes the only concern? Isn't Morgan Tuck likely to deserve significant minutes? Didn't Kiah Stokes show enough to deserve minutes in competitive games?

Start Kaleena in a four guard lineup and you are at a minimum taking 8-10 minutes in playing time away from the post players as Geno is unlikely to sub regularly before the 1st television timeout. Given the talent of the post players this season that doesn't seem like what's best for the team. Breanna will still get her 25-30 minutes, but someone else that is deserving will miss out.

Having 3 quality reserve players coming off the bench for 2 positions in Breanna, Morgan, and Kiah also makes little sense. (A year or two down the road maybe Breanna and Morgan are both on the court at the forwards with Stef or Kiah at center, but it is not a good idea as freshman. Perimeter defense is typically the hardest thing to adapt to when changing levels in basketball. Outside of Kelly Faris freshman guards almost universally struggle defensively even if he they come with a reputation for being a good defender. Asking freshman post players to guard college perimeter players is not a good idea even if they are super talented. Someone as talented as Maya struggled significantly with it when she was forced into it as a freshman. ) By starting Breanna you get those 8-10 minutes back for Morgan and Kiah, and you have two post players backing up two post players.

And by balancing that the rest of the rotation balances itself by providing another more experienced backup at guard for the 3 perimeter positions. Giving the team 2 or 3 backups at those positions instead of 1 or 2 depending on the play of Moriah and Brianna. Kaleena likely continues to fill the 6th man role as Geno prefers it with a guard/wing that is instant offense. Breanna has a huge impact on the game, but she's not really that instant impact scorer that Geno favors. Maya was something of an exception as a freshman 6th man that wasn't a guard, but he had five returning starters and Maya did have a burning desire to score immediately. He could still start Kaleena too, but I suspect Geno feels differently about demoting a senior from the starting lineup than he does promoting a freshman into the starting lineup over a sophomore. That is where he does reward seniority. Starting Breanna provides rotational balance that I don't think Geno will ignore because it will make the team function better.
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Well, I totally disagree that Stewart will not be that impact scorer. She is an excellent 3 point shooter, has a great midrange game, can hook with either hand and is a terrific post up player.

And her immediate impact defensively will be something to watch off the bench.

Uconn will have a true 10 player rotation, so I will amend my minutes to say that both Lewis and Stewart will demand 25 minutes. As will Hartley. And of course Tuck and Stokes will deserve minutes. Somewhere in the 15-20 range. There just aren't enough minutes in the game to play everyone 25-30 that deserve it.

If he does start Lewis, Doty, Hartley, Faris and Dolson, there will be multiple subs at the 6-8 minute mark. You're a better analyst of the game if you can say with any certainty how this will all shake out. Stewart, Jefferson, Tuck, Stokes and Banks all deserve minutes. Who is to say he won't just make wholesale changes and replace the starters with those 5 at times. When you have players that can play mutiple positions, I would challenge anyone to predict the rotation.

I will say that the MVP of the BE tourney made her case to replace Hayes in the starting rotation and I can't see how starting Stewart would be more beneficial for the team, even with your fine analysis.

Just so show how versatile this team will be, here are the possible positions for the payers.

Hartley - 1,2
Doty - 1,2
Faris - 1,2,3,4 (I really think she can play all 4 of these positions)
Dolson - 5
Lewis - 2,3,4

Stewart - 3,4,5
Stokes - 4,5
Jefferson - 1,2
Tuck - 3,4
Banks - 1,2

Geno will have a ball mixing and matching.
 
This is part of why we disagree about the value of Stewart starting. I think that Stewart and Tuck can play the 3 offensively for UConn as freshman, but I don't think they can effectively play it defensively as freshman against competitive teams. Any player can play any offensive position, but they have to have somebody they can guard on defense. Bad things often happen when you have a freshman post player trying to chase a 5'10" guard around the court.

doggydaddy said:
Just so show how versatile this team will be, here are the possible positions for the payers.

Hartley - 1,2
Doty - 1,2
Faris - 1,2,3,4 (I really think she can play all 4 of these positions)
Dolson - 5
Lewis - 2,3,4

Stewart - 3,4,5
Stokes - 4,5
Jefferson - 1,2
Tuck - 3,4
Banks - 1,2

Geno will have a ball mixing and matching.
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Scotter said:
This is part of why we disagree about the value of Stewart starting. I think that Stewart and Tuck can play the 3 offensively for UConn as freshman, but I don't think they can effectively play it defensively as freshman against competitive teams. Any player can play any offensive position, but they have to have somebody they can guard on defense. Bad things often happen when you have a freshman post player trying to chase a 5'10" guard around the court.
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Those bad things, also, happen when a freshman post has to bring help D. That is one reason why I think she does not start immediately but will benefit from watching an experienced unit working. High minutes, yes, but not starting immediately. Clearly, she is exceptional but so is the process through which Geno and staff have developed past greats.

"Watch and learn, Grasshopper."
 
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The speculation time of year. I do love it so. I wonder if there is another college team in the country with our problem.I'm betting there isn't, but I bet they wish they did. We have a player coming in to our program who would be a lock for the WNBA right now. Her name is Breanna Stewart as you all know, and she will probably not be in the starting 5.
We all know that Geno does not start freshman as a general rule, so what do you do ?
Doggy-daddy said that the frosh might not start , but would probably get starter's minutes. That is kinda how I see it, early on anyway.
No secrets to my starters : Bria Hartley,Caroline Doty, Kelly Faris, Kaleena M. Lewis, & Big Momma Stef Dolson.
Who is going to keep any of these girls out of the starting 5 ? Are you going to keep Kelly on the bench after that miraculous Diana-like performance she put on ND in the last 2 minutes ? Who is going to tell Caroline she is going to the bench after what she has put herself through for the UCONN program ? The offense goes through Stef, Bria Hartley is the QB, and if anyone noticed at the end of the year Kaleena was everywhere. Passing, screening, and lest we forget the best perimeter shooter in UCONN history.
Just think... we have these 5 doing their thing and then we have the baby thoroughbreds to cap it off !
 
Scotter said:
This is part of why we disagree about the value of Stewart starting. I think that Stewart and Tuck can play the 3 offensively for UConn as freshman, but I don't think they can effectively play it defensively as freshman against competitive teams. Any player can play any offensive position, but they have to have somebody they can guard on defense. Bad things often happen when you have a freshman post player trying to chase a 5'10" guard around the court.
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Stewart and Tuck CAN play the 3, but I don't think they will see much time there. It was just me showing how veratile this team is.

I do disagree about the matchups. I think it will be much easier for Stewart and Tuck to chase around a 5'10" wing (not a guard, we are talking about the 3 position) than it will be for that player to cover two players in Tuck and Stewart that can post up and hit the 3. Advantage UConn.

I think early on, you will see players in all sorts of positions as Geno finds out what works and what doesn't.

Competive teams? So you are talking about 3-4 games? Maybe? That leaves 30+ for Geno to do whatever he wants with matchups.
 
Help defense for posts comes far more naturally when moving up a level than perimeter defense comes to any position. All posts (and most guards too for that matter) do at the lower levels is play help defense as they try to compensate for less talented teammates. There is some discipline to be learned, but for the most it is instinctual and nothing like the level of discipline that needs to be learned to play strong perimeter defense. Freshman post players make a positive defensive impact fairly often because they can just on their size, athleticism, and instincts, freshman guards almost never make a positive defensive impact.

And in Breanna's specific case she has played more USA Basketball than any other player ever has before entering in college. Add that to her size, length, and athleticism and I'm not that concerned about her help defense.

Icebear said:
Those bad things, also, happen when a freshman post has to bring help D. That is one reason why I think she does not start immediately but will benefit from watching an experienced unit working. High minutes, yes, but not starting immediately. Clearly, she is exceptional but so is the process through which Geno and staff have developed past greats.

"Watch and learn, Grasshopper."
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I'msure even Geno has no idea who the starters will be although he & CD may have some lineups they'd like to try in the preseason. All things being equal, he would rather go with the more experienced player. However, Geno does have a history of starting the players that he thinks will achieve whatever goals he'd like to accomplish at the beginning of the game, regardless of class.

We can't make educated guesses as to the starters until practices start. Sometimes players show up out of shape, are overwhelmed by the entire experience (that includes adjusting to being away from home, dorm living, etc) or consistently defer to the upperclassmen. How many times have we seen tremendously talented players that kind of hold back out of deference to their more experienced teammates? So although we know Breanna or Morgan or Moriah can do certain things, we don't know if they will do those things in college.

Choosing starters is more than who will produce the most points and rebounds, it's also about who will bring the right confidence and attitude to the floor. And we won't know that until October.
 
I'm marveling at how analyses have evolved on the Boneyard from the days when BudFrog insisted that Auriemma was making a grave mistake not starting Shea Ralph, simply because she was one of the 5 best players. The arguments pro and con have come a long way since then. Nice points on both sides.
 
diggerfoot said:
I'm marveling at how analyses have evolved on the Boneyard from the days when BudFrog insisted that Auriemma was making a grave mistake not starting Shea Ralph, simply because she was one of the 5 best players. The arguments pro and con have come a long way since then. Nice points on both sides.
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I thought Bud was a big Schuie fan?

Ah, BudFrog - he's probably hding under his bed until Notre Dame football returns to its glory days
 
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Scotter said:
Help defense for posts comes far more naturally when moving up a level than perimeter defense comes to any position. All posts (and most guards too for that matter) do at the lower levels is play help defense as they try to compensate for less talented teammates. There is some discipline to be learned, but for the most it is instinctual and nothing like the level of discipline that needs to be learned to play strong perimeter defense. Freshman post players make a positive defensive impact fairly often because they can just on their size, athleticism, and instincts, freshman guards almost never make a positive defensive impact.

And in Breanna's specific case she has played more USA Basketball than any other player ever has before entering in college. Add that to her size, length, and athleticism and I'm not that concerned about her help defense.
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I significantly disagree, scotter, which is unusual when it comes to your posts. As per posts playing in college I, personally, think that good help defense is one of the hardest things for college posts to learn and that is why so many end up in foul trouble early in their careers. I absolutely agree that with her time with USA Basketball and playing ahead of her years will put Breanna ahead of the curve but it will not surprise me for her to watch for awhile from the bench early in the season.
 
Icebear said:
I significantly disagree, scotter, which is unusual when it comes to your posts. As per posts playing in college I, personally, think that good help defense is one of the hardest things for college posts to learn and that is why so many end up in foul trouble early in their careers. I absolutely agree that with her time with USA Basketball and playing ahead of her years will put Breanna ahead of the curve but it will not surprise me for her to watch for awhile from the bench early in the season.
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I think young college players who spend the great majority of their time on the block defending the 5, especially (but also the 4), definitely get into foul trouble when they help from a deep position in the lane, under the rim. Their teammate just got beat off the dribble and they have to get to a spot in another part of the lane. They try their best to get there, put their arms up, but either can't get there and get called for the block or reach over past vertical with their arms. (How many times did we see this with Stef her freshman year?) #1 most young players who try to do this this aren't quick enough to get to the spot fast enough and #2 most are going to be defending primarily with the body. That is, they attempt the "arms straight up" defense, which Stef has gotten much better at. This is how most players are coached.

This wasn't Maya's favorite SOP as a help defender playing the 4 and I don't think it will be Bre's. Certainly Maya did it when needed and still does it in the W but it wasn't her bread and butter. Breanna will come from a variety of spots on the floor because she will be guarding somebody other than the opponent's 5 most of the time. This means she will typically be coming from the side or over the top as a shot-blocker, not a positional arms-straight-up defender. In addition, even when she is the big who needs to step in and prevent the layup--like when Stef has been drawn out and one of our other players gets beaten by penetration--Bre is one of the few players in WCBB who is athletic enough to maintain spacing between herself and the ball so that she doesn't have to plant her feet and do the standard arms-straight-up positional defense. She can stay close but not too close and can stay with the ballhandler as they go to the rim or rise for the shot, bothering or blocking the shot, much like the guys do.

I think that like Maya, Bre will play by instinct and come from all over the place. In doing so she will be able to utilize her quickness and her vertical as a helper, just like Maya, in addition to her wingspan. When a player is planted, it's pretty much only their height/wingspan that is utilized.
 
HuskyNan said:
I thought Bud was a big Schuie fan?

Ah, BudFrog - he's probably hding under his bed until Notre Dame football returns to its glory days
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I think the Ralph discussion came when both men and women's boards were combined. I think he disappeared then reappeared when the women's board was separate and that's when he was a champion of Schumacher. Then again, I have trouble remembering what happened yesterday with accuracy.

For some reason this calls to mind another poster I'm trying to remember from yesteryear but can't. Here's all I have to go on: you (HuskyNan) and he once got into a debate about tattoos and band-aids, a la KJ; he was highly trained in statistics; and he had spent time in India. Does his handle come to mind?
 
diggerfoot said:
For some reason this calls to mind another poster I'm trying to remember from yesteryear but can't. Here's all I have to go on: you (HuskyNan) and he once got into a debate about tattoos and band-aids, a la KJ; he was highly trained in statistics; and he had spent time in India. Does his handle come to mind?
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That was zymurg, a very smart fellow.
 
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Great article, thanks Blake. It's amazing how every time we have a top recruit, they have to start. Guess what? Didn't happen with Maya, didn't happen with KLM, and won't happen with Breanna, either! As many have pointed out, the best players are going to get plenty of playing time, whether they start or come off the bench. Not that I'm opposed to Breanna starting, (can't wait to see her play), BUT SHE IS NOT GOING TO START...GET OVER IT!:):):)
 
HuskyNan said:
Not sure. He didn't register for a handle here.
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Zymurg was a Vandy grad who chose the Boneyard as his posting home.

He described himself as "older than dirt" even back when. Maybe he finally got too mature for us.
 
zymurg was always a great asset to the Boneyard.
 
JS said:
Zymurg was a Vandy grad who chose the Boneyard as his posting home.

He described himself as "older than dirt" even back when. Maybe he finally got too mature for us.
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He's one of my Facebook friends. I gave him a shoutout.
 
Those who say that 5 upperclassmen will start are (in my opinion) overlooking a very important issue -- it means that at the 4 minute mark it will be necessary to bring in all 3 freshmen and have them play together. That is a recipe for mistakes and poor execution. Assuming that you agree that all 3 freshmen deserve major minutes, the only way to keep all 3 of them from playing together is to have at least one of them start.

If Morgan really is the next generation of Asjha Jones (which I think may be about right), then I wouldn't be surprised if she is the one freshman who is in the starting lineup. This is for a very specific reason: I think she will be a monster rebounder (as Asjha was and still is), and that would nicely complement Stef, for whom rebounding is not a strength. Then, at the 4-minute mark, the 5-4 pair could be changed to Kiah-Breanna, with Kiah doing the major work on the boards.

On this premise, my predicted starting lineup is: Stef - Morgan - KML - Bria - Kelly, with Kelly as PG. At the 4 minute mark, Kiah - Breanna - Moriah would enter the game, with Moriah probably replacing Kelly but with those three (Bria, Kelly, and Moriah) basically sharing the backcourt minutes except for those that Caroline continues to get.

One thing I'm rather sure about is that there will be no 4-guard lineups in 2012-13. That was done last season by necessity rather than by choice, and with our new frontcourt riches, there is no necessity for it this year. That means that KML will basically be a fixture at the 3. Stef/Kiah will split the "5" minutes, and Breanna / Morgan will likewise split the "4" minutes.
 
JoePgh said:
Those who say that 5 upperclassmen will start are (in my opinion) overlooking a very important issue -- it means that at the 4 minute mark it will be necessary to bring in all 3 freshmen and have them play together.
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Not true.

First, you seem to be implying that mistakes are ok if a player is with 4 experienced teammates. Not with Geno. If a player is not good enough to play with 2 other frosh, then she's not good enough to play with 4 upperclassmen. Players will play when the coaches determine they are ready to play.

Second, the only player I'm sure will get major minutes in big games is Stewart. Jefferson and Tuck could be brought along more slowly depending on their progress - MoJeff in particular given the number of guards in front of her.

I see no reason that subs are "necessary" at the 4 minute mark. And I'm pretty sure that there won't be 3 at once. UConn had a great season last year largely with 6 players. They surely can play the first 10 minutes with 6.
 
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