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I think the bigger question right now is whether or not someone can get involved and sort out the ACC/Big East issues. Just because Pitt and Cuse left we have to assume that there is no way to realign? The Big East and the ACC should sit down and figure out how to form a league that has maximum potential. If that involves leaving behind weaker links, so be it. The fight for survival as BCS leagues is over. Form a 20 team league and get a new contract. The Big Atlantic Conference or something of that nature.
 

CTMike

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Any thoughts of an ACC/Big East merger won't happen until the ACC has been raided and is in a very bad place.
 

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Any thoughts of an ACC/Big East merger won't happen until the ACC has been raided and is in a very bad place.

Agree 100%. The time to work cooperatively was before they took Pitt and Syracuse. Now there is no point. Unfortunately, the outcome will be much, much worse for both leagues than if they had worked cooperatively.

FSU to the Big 12 is getting a lot of traction with analysts and "insiders", at a level of Texas A&M to the SEC in the weeks leading up to that announcement. I think it is going to happen.
 
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Agree 100%. The time to work cooperatively was before they took Pitt and Syracuse. Now there is no point. Unfortunately, the outcome will be much, much worse for both leagues than if they had worked cooperatively.

FSU to the Big 12 is getting a lot of traction with analysts and "insiders", at a level of Texas A&M to the SEC in the weeks leading up to that announcement. I think it is going to happen.


Why? It seems making a move now is the only way to get a better deal and stabilize the majority of programs in both leagues. An east coast league without FSU and Clemson is still a great product due to the massive population in the east, easy travel, rivalries and very high quality hoops. Being reactive will fail, this situation requires being proactive for any chance of success.
 

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Why? It seems making a move now is the only way to get a better deal and stabilize the majority of programs in both leagues. An east coast league without FSU and Clemson is still a great product due to the massive population in the east, easy travel, rivalries and very high quality hoops. Being reactive will fail, this situation requires being proactive for any chance of success.

A few problems with working cooperatively.

1)NNBE - The ACC stub teams are not interested in being in a league with UCF, Houston, Boise and SDSU. SMU probably isn't completely repulsive. The Big East moved to save itself, but in so doing, became less attractive as a merger candidate. I suspect whoever remains in the ACC will try to add a few Big East schools, likely Rutgers and UConn, when the time comes.

2) Shortage of lifeboats - From experience, we know that every program in the ACC is trying to find a lifeboat at this point. FSU is in the driver's seat, but UNC and UVa are in great shape too. VTech and Clemson have a decent shot of finding a home. They are not going to lock in to some amalgamation of ACC plus whoever from the Big East if they can get out to the Big 10, SEC or Big 12.

3) Networks - Networks aren't going to ink a deal with a stub league until they know what it looks like. 1 and 2 above create problems in this vein. The bigger issue is that ESPN still has an exclusive negotiation right with the ACC, which means it has the ACC by the balls. If 4 or 5 ACC teams leave, it is not clear that the remaining 9 or 10 will get a better deal than the Big East since, unlike the Big East, the ACC is only allowed to negotiate with one buyer.

The ACC should have merged into the Big East when the Big East was in backdoor negotiations with NBC. Both leagues were stable, and the Big East was not burdened by a lousy TV deal. Now, the Big East is ****ed, the ACC is about to be, and there isn't a good solution for either of them.
 
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A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.
 
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A few problems with working cooperatively.

1)NNBE - The ACC stub teams are not interested in being in a league with UCF, Houston, Boise and SDSU. SMU probably isn't completely repulsive. The Big East moved to save itself, but in so doing, became less attractive as a merger candidate. I suspect whoever remains in the ACC will try to add a few Big East schools, likely Rutgers and UConn, when the time comes.

2) Shortage of lifeboats - From experience, we know that every program in the ACC is trying to find a lifeboat at this point. FSU is in the driver's seat, but UNC and UVa are in great shape too. VTech and Clemson have a decent shot of finding a home. They are not going to lock in to some amalgamation of ACC plus whoever from the Big East if they can get out to the Big 10, SEC or Big 12.

3) Networks - Networks aren't going to ink a deal with a stub league until they know what it looks like. 1 and 2 above create problems in this vein. The bigger issue is that ESPN still has an exclusive negotiation right with the ACC, which means it has the ACC by the balls. If 4 or 5 ACC teams leave, it is not clear that the remaining 9 or 10 will get a better deal than the Big East since, unlike the Big East, the ACC is only allowed to negotiate with one buyer.

The ACC should have merged into the Big East when the Big East was in backdoor negotiations with NBC. Both leagues were stable, and the Big East was not burdened by a lousy TV deal. Now, the Big East is ****ed, the ACC is about to be, and there isn't a good solution for either of them.


That's my point. At least one intelligent university president is bound to realize that walking out on the Big East and ACC and forming a new league with the best schools is the ideal solution. It would allow them to ditch the western schools and or some of the directionals if need be. They could then form the best possible conference while being able to get a new contract. Both leagues are dying, why not join hands and jump ship? If FSU etc. decline to come, you know they were out the door anyway.
 
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A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.

Frank,

Have you heard anything regarding the rumor that the ACC money will come back at around 18 million per school with the caveat that the schools sign a grant of rights for the duration of the contract?

Personally, I don't see FSU or Clemson ever signing a GOR to the ACC. At the very least this will force their hands.
 
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A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.


The issue that you are ignoring is that the ACC is boring and mediocre right now and the term "the 4 power conferences" keeps being uttered in the media. The ACC is losing its luster and nothing can be done about it. With Espn controlling all ACC property, the other networks will entirely dismiss it and walk all over it. The ACC has seen its best days and is not a power conference any more. A reconstructed east coast conference is the solution. All state U's plus a handful of select privates.
 
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I believe the ACC has tried to add Texas and ND.
It's easy to look back and suggest what the ACC could have done.

The only mistake was not considering WVU. This gives the Big12 an eastern foothold and now makes the ACC ripe for picking not only from the SEC but also the Big12.
Ouside of WVU, what other schools could have been added to increase the ACC football brand? UofL and Cincy are not really in the ACC footprint. Uconn and Rutgers are still there so no reason to act yet. Syr and Pitt were the two best options at the time. WVU would have been a great move as well, and that's the decision that could huant the ACC for some time.
 
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[quote="In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.[/quote]

Frank,
Not sure that ESPN cares about the survival of the ACC as much as you think. ESPN is putting serious $'s behind the Big12. In the end, with only 4 super-conferences, ESPN is banking that they can increase viewership and pay less $'s because they are forcing the conferences to essentially get rid of the dead-weights. If the Big12 expands at the expense of the ACC, where is the ACC going for replacements. The Big East.
So, at the end of the day, ESPN at worst could be paying the ACC $15M/year for a league that is pretty much the best of the BE and what's left of of the ACC after Big12 and SEC raids. Assuming that leaves Uconn, Rutgers, Duke, BC, WF, Pitt, Syr, Virginia, MD, UNC, USF, Temple (or some other)... If this happens, ESPN isn't going to be returning Marinatto's calls anytime soon. There would be nothing left in the NBE of value.
ESPN is very good... If this works, and the BE and ACC essentially cease to exist as big-time conferences, ESPN is a genius. And WVU should be thanking the ACC for not accepting them. Not only does this lock ESPN in, but what is left for Fox or NBC to bid on? The NBE without any founding members.
Winners: ESPN, WVU, SEC, Big12, Big10, Pac12
Losers: ACC, BE (both got played like fiddle)[/quote]
 
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The issue that you are ignoring is that the ACC is boring and mediocre right now and the term "the 4 power conferences" keeps being uttered in the media. The ACC is losing its luster and nothing can be done about it. With Espn controlling all ACC property, the other networks will entirely dismiss it and walk all over it. The ACC has seen its best days and is not a power conference any more. A reconstructed east coast conference is the solution. All state U's plus a handful of select privates.

Who is saying "4 power conferences"? Fans on message boards, jocks that are on-the-field analysts, or people that actually report and understand the *business* side of college sports? The media people that have actually been reporting on the ins and outs of the college sports business ALWAYS include the ACC among the power conferences without exception. Why do you think Virginia Tech got an invite to a BCS bowl last year instead of a higher ranked Big 12 team (Kansas State)? If the Big 12 could get freaking Florida State and Clemson to join, why the heck did they even bother with West Virginia and TCU? Note that the Big 12 had a great TV deal with Fox extended last year and were talking about an assignment of rights then, and yet Texas A&M and Missouri STILL left.

I've said this elsewhere: I completely believe in the power of Texas as a school, but absolutely no one should have faith in the power of the Big 12 as a conference. Now, I believe that Texas has a need for control even beyond money, so they'll stay in the Big 12 since it's their own fiefdom, but that doesn't mean that the other Big 12 schools actually want to be there. Strong conferences need to be bound by something other than money (e.g. academics, geography, rivalries) or else schools will just leave for the next great TV deal. Both the Big 12 and Big East were solely bound by their TV contracts, so when other conferences offered more, they bolted ASAP.
 

nelsonmuntz

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A few points:

(1) I still continue to perplexed as to how many people are falling for supposed Big 12 information that is originating from WEST VIRGINIA (repeat: WEST VIRGINIA THAT'S NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIG 12 YET AND CAN'T VOTE ON EXPANSION), other than they are so biased against the ACC that they are projecting their hopes into a belief that FSU and Clemson will leave. When there is information that originating from Texas regarding the Big 12, then I'll listen.

(2) Even if FSU and Clemson going to the Big 12 were a possibility, university presidents ultimately aren't that stupid. Remember the old adage of being "penny wise and pound foolish". Could the Big 12 be receiving a larger amount of TV dollars in the short term than the ACC? Sure. Do you think these university presidents have collective amnesia where they forgot that the Big 12 almost died TWICE in the past two years simply because one school (Texas) flirts a little bit? I don't think so. Remember that you had schools like Kansas asking whether they could join the Big East a couple of years ago. A new TV contract doesn't make everything hunky dory when you're looking at the long-term (and a 6-year assignment of TV rights is NOT long-term in college conference speak). I'm someone that pointed out in the very beginning (when the Big Ten was looking to expand) how important TV rights are to conference realignment when most fans just thought geography and rivalries mattered (which is how my blog ended up getting so widely read), yet now it feels like it's gone in the other direction where there's a belief that's *all* that schools care about. That simply isn't true. Otherwise, schools would just jump around every time that the latest big TV contract is signed. The most important factor in choosing a conference (even over TV rights) is STABILITY. That's something that the ACC has and the Big 12 simply won't ever have because the Big 12 is so dependent upon a single school (Texas).

(3) There is only one power conference where ESPN owns 100% of the TV rights to: the ACC. Repeat: the ACC is the ONLY power conference that ESPN owns ALL of the TV rights from top to bottom. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that believe that ESPN had a hand in the ACC raiding the Big East this past year. If you believe that to be true, how is it in the best interests of ESPN to nickel and dime the ACC in its contract renegotiation to the point where its most valuable football school (FSU) would leave? Think about the big picture. Maybe the ACC ultimately won't make more than the Big 12, but ESPN is going to pay enough to ensure that no ACC school is going to leave for the Big 12 (or at least that it's not going to be about a lack of TV money). Whatever you think of the people in Bristol, they are the BEST in the business on the financial side of the house and they know when they need to pay up (and alternatively, when they don't need to pay up). This is one of those instances where they know that they'll need to pay up because they have a larger interest in protecting the ACC over ANY other college conference.

In case you are wondering, I have no dog in the ACC hunt at all. Duke is my least favorite sports team (college or pro) anywhere, so I'd personally love it if they were relegated to the Southern Conference. However, it bothers me a lot that a ridiculous rumor has been getting so much traction where biases against the ACC or for the Big 12 have been coloring people's perceptions.

This is the argument of a football fan, not a business person. The Big 12 has granted TV rights for 12 years. It doesn't get more stable than that. One of those schools leaves, they play for free until the end of the rights' grant. The ACC may or may not have a $20 million separation fee, which is very manageable considering the revenue gap between the Big 12 and ACC. The ACC is only as stable as the last offer to leave. I believe FSU and someone else are going to get an offer fairly soon, possibly before 6/30, and then we will learn just how (un)stable the ACC really is.

Do you understand how much money it would cost ESPN to bridge that revenue gap? 14 schools X $8MM/School = $112 million PER YEAR. Do you think ESPN has any interest in unilaterally increasing its costs by $112 million per year? The ACC is locked into a long-term deal with ESPN that ESPN does not have to touch. ESPN already destroyed one league to save money, it will have no remorse for destroying another.

The ACC, more than any league, is bifurcated in terms of the value of the various programs. There are several, such as FSU, VTech, UNC, UVa, and Clemson, that justify major dollars on their own in any league. There are others, such as Georgia Tech, NC State, Pitt, Maryland and Syracuse, which could have value in the right conference, but as stand alone programs and without historical rivalries, they are not that valuable. Then there are schools like Wake Forest, Duke, Miami and BC which are virtually worthless to TV and are dragging down the value of the rest of the programs.

Miami football gets way more press than it deserves, in my opinion because so many of today's sportscasters grew up during an era when Miami was dominant. Old timers don't think twice about Miami and neither do most younger fans. Miami may draw 25k or so of actual fans in the seats for any but the most marquee matchups, and the basketball program draws about 4k. Duke basketball is an outlier among the bottom 4. That program has a lot of value, but not enough to save a football program that may be the least followed of any major conference program.

If you were to start this league from scratch, as a TV exec, you would take the top 5, add GT, NCSU and Maryland, and include Duke as a basketball only. The rest are dead weight within the construct of the ACC. Pitt is not nearly as interesting without WVU, ND, and its budding rivalries with Louisville and Cincinnati. Pitt basketball without a New York City pipeline is worthless, and I expect Jamie Dixon to be gone within a year. Syracuse is not that interesting as a far northern outpost in a dying region of the country. In the right league, both schools could be major assets. I don't think the ACC is that league, particularly after it gets gutted.
 
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Frank -

I have read your writings and I think you usually have a good read on conference realignment. But, I do think there are a few issues that could drive teams from the ACC both proactively and reactively. What are the key issues?

1. Will the SEC go to 16?
2. Will Big 1G expand beyond 12?

If you are the president of an ACC school, you need to make a judgement on the answers to these questions and then determine if your school is in or out. Then you have to decide if you need to be proactive or reactive. As the Big East learned from experience, you don't want to be reactive.

If the SEC goes to 16, there are four attractive teams Texas, Oklahoma, VT, and NC State as three bring new markets and Texas is Texas. Clemson and FSU are possibilities, but they don't add new markets.

If the Big 1G expands the most attractive candidates are ACC schools such as Maryland, UNC, and UVA, with ND. Florida State and Clemson are not on the list.

Maybe conferences won't expand from here, but is you are FSU and Clemson, you have to be thinking about the future which is why they have to think long and hard about the Big 12.

By the way, I think ESPN really cares about ACC basketball more than ACC football as ACC football can be easily replaced, especially if the best football schools go to new conferences.
 
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Who is saying "4 power conferences"? Fans on message boards, jocks that are on-the-field analysts, or people that actually report and understand the *business* side of college sports? The media people that have actually been reporting on the ins and outs of the college sports business ALWAYS include the ACC among the power conferences without exception. Why do you think Virginia Tech got an invite to a BCS bowl last year instead of a higher ranked Big 12 team (Kansas State)? If the Big 12 could get freaking Florida State and Clemson to join, why the heck did they even bother with West Virginia and TCU? Note that the Big 12 had a great TV deal with Fox extended last year and were talking about an assignment of rights then, and yet Texas A&M and Missouri STILL left.

I've said this elsewhere: I completely believe in the power of Texas as a school, but absolutely no one should have faith in the power of the Big 12 as a conference. Now, I believe that Texas has a need for control even beyond money, so they'll stay in the Big 12 since it's their own fiefdom, but that doesn't mean that the other Big 12 schools actually want to be there. Strong conferences need to be bound by something other than money (e.g. academics, geography, rivalries) or else schools will just leave for the next great TV deal. Both the Big 12 and Big East were solely bound by their TV contracts, so when other conferences offered more, they bolted ASAP.

This is cute. Very August/October of 2011, but cute none the less. You keep throwing at the wall, maybe something will stick.
 

ConnHuskBask

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In retrospect, the ACC should have just added Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Rutgers, West Virginia and Louisville.
 
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Miami football gets way more press than it deserves, in my opinion because so many of today's sportscasters grew up during an era when Miami was dominant. Old timers don't think twice about Miami and neither do most younger fans. Miami may draw 25k or so of actual fans in the seats for any but the most marquee matchups, and the basketball program draws about 4k. Duke basketball is an outlier among the bottom 4.

Don't they have some of the higher rated broadcasts of all time? I am pretty sure that is the case, at least when it comes to ESPN broadcasts. I think you are mistaken because they are very polarizing and when they are good, people want to watch. And having history is always a good thing, or so I have heard from Alabama, USC, ND people over the years.
 
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I am not a college insider. I have no reference for some of the numbers being tossed around for TV deals. And I don't really care where schools go. But...when I read these posts on the "failing" ACC and massive conference raids, I just have to shake my head and ask are these supposed to be serious? Because operating from a position of logic, none of these claims seem right.

First, I have no idea why any of the conferences feel a need to go to 16. People act like it's a magic number, but why? And outside of tearing apart the ACC, there's a complete lack of viable candidates. They are zero candidates for the Pac-12 unless they get into Big 12 territory.

Second, some people act like the ACC and the Big East are on equal footing. They aren't and won't. Even if the ACC did get raided, the remaining choice schools (really just Rutgers and UConn) would move on and leave the rest behind. The idea of some East Coast superconference is laughable, mainly because the ACC is already it. Save UConn and Rutgers, no one else matters from the Big East. The conference does not want part timers like Georgetown and no one cares about Cincinnati.

Third, when did the Big 12 become stable? This is the same conference that saw 4 choice members leave in a one year span. Two of which left just a few months back. And suddenly everyone wants to go there?

Fourth, ACC ratings (basketball and football) support the fact they're on par, if not better, than the Big 12. The ACC may not have a great contract now, but that will change eventually. Even a long term deal expires. And is everything about a few more $$$ right now? No move to date has been purely about the money. It's generally been either about escaping the Frankenstein conglomeration that is the Big East (with non-football schools) or running away from Texas. No school has left simply to add a few bucks. Why start now?

I get the feeling that in a few years one could look back on this thread and laugh at the prognostications of massive conference raids and the ACC's impending doom.
 
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If you were to start this league from scratch, as a TV exec, you would take the top 5, add GT, NCSU and Maryland, and include Duke as a basketball only.
Because a hybrid conference has proved itself to be so viable in the past.

This thread has so many internet/tin foil hat ideas in it that it has become a running parody of itself.
 

Dann

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I am not a college insider. I have no reference for some of the numbers being tossed around for TV deals. And I don't really care where schools go. But...when I read these posts on the "failing" ACC and massive conference raids, I just have to shake my head and ask are these supposed to be serious? Because operating from a position of logic, none of these claims seem right.

First, I have no idea why any of the conferences feel a need to go to 16. People act like it's a magic number, but why? And outside of tearing apart the ACC, there's a complete lack of viable candidates. They are zero candidates for the Pac-12 unless they get into Big 12 territory.

Second, some people act like the ACC and the Big East are on equal footing. They aren't and won't. Even if the ACC did get raided, the remaining choice schools (really just Rutgers and UConn) would move on and leave the rest behind. The idea of some East Coast superconference is laughable, mainly because the ACC is already it. Save UConn and Rutgers, no one else matters from the Big East. The conference does not want part timers like Georgetown and no one cares about Cincinnati.

Third, when did the Big 12 become stable? This is the same conference that saw 4 choice members leave in a one year span. Two of which left just a few months back. And suddenly everyone wants to go there?

Fourth, ACC ratings (basketball and football) support the fact they're on par, if not better, than the Big 12. The ACC may not have a great contract now, but that will change eventually. Even a long term deal expires. And is everything about a few more $$$ right now? No move to date has been purely about the money. It's generally been either about escaping the Frankenstein conglomeration that is the Big East (with non-football schools) or running away from Texas. No school has left simply to add a few bucks. Why start now?

I get the feeling that in a few years one could look back on this thread and laugh at the prognostications of massive conference raids and the ACC's impending doom.

bcs is going to a 4 team playoff. 1 of the b12 or acc has to die. teams won't sit in one of those confs win the league at 11-1 and not get a bid to the playoff. they won't be happy, they will move for the bid and for $$. the b12 has the potential to double the $$ the acc would get tv contract wise. the acc can only add a couple more schools possible #'s wise. therefore the b12 has the advantage.
 

nelsonmuntz

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I am not a college insider. I have no reference for some of the numbers being tossed around for TV deals. And I don't really care where schools go. But...when I read these posts on the "failing" ACC and massive conference raids, I just have to shake my head and ask are these supposed to be serious? Because operating from a position of logic, none of these claims seem right.

First, I have no idea why any of the conferences feel a need to go to 16. People act like it's a magic number, but why? And outside of tearing apart the ACC, there's a complete lack of viable candidates. They are zero candidates for the Pac-12 unless they get into Big 12 territory.

I didn't say a conference needs to go to 16.

Second, some people act like the ACC and the Big East are on equal footing. They aren't and won't. Even if the ACC did get raided, the remaining choice schools (really just Rutgers and UConn) would move on and leave the rest behind. The idea of some East Coast superconference is laughable, mainly because the ACC is already it. Save UConn and Rutgers, no one else matters from the Big East. The conference does not want part timers like Georgetown and no one cares about Cincinnati.

Some people think that if the Big East sucks the ACC won't get raided. THE TWO THINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

Third, when did the Big 12 become stable? This is the same conference that saw 4 choice members leave in a one year span. Two of which left just a few months back. And suddenly everyone wants to go there?

The Big 12 became stable when it signed a TV contract that punks the ACC's, and then the individuals signed off their TV rights for the next 12 years. NO ONE is leaving the Big 12 for the next 12 years.

Fourth, ACC ratings (basketball and football) support the fact they're on par, if not better, than the Big 12. Source? The ACC may not have a great contract now, but that will change eventually. Even a long term deal expires. And is everything about a few more $$$ right now? The number is $8+ million a year for the next 10 years. That is a ton of money. No move to date has been purely about the money. Maybe only 95% about money. It's generally been either about escaping the Frankenstein conglomeration that is the Big East (with non-football schools) or running away from Texas. No school has left simply to add a few bucks. Wrong. Why start now?

I get the feeling that in a few years one could look back on this thread and laugh at the prognostications of massive conference raids and the ACC's impending doom.

I should have stopped with the second sentence of the post.

It will take one of two things for FSU to stay in the ACC:

1) ESPN comes up with another $110+ million/year for the ACC for no reason whatsoever.

2) The Big 12 decides not to invite FSU because FSU isn't worth it.
 

nelsonmuntz

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That's been rehashed several times. The Nielsen 2011 presentation shows ACC as #2 BB/3 FB in ratings.

I have yet to see someone that can interpret that data to have it make sense. Our visiting "insider" tripped all over himself trying to explain it. I have posited that the data represents viewership for broadcast network (CBS, ABC, NBC) games only. Otherwise, the SEC would get more viewers on the various Saturday night games than there are total viewers watching television. It is possible that the national ESPN games are included in that number, although the numbers get a little shaky if they are. There is no way the Game Plan games are included.

Let's say it is CBS, ABC, NBC and ESPN. The chart further confirms my point. There are clearly some ACC properties that are very attractive, but overall, on a Tier 1 AND Tier 2 basis, ESPN was underwhelmed. Furthermore, it doesn't really matter anymore anyway, because the ACC is locked into a long-term deal anyway with ESPN. But those high value properties (VTech, FSU, Clemson, UNC, UVa) could be very valuable to the Big 12 or SEC.

More interesting than the conference data, which we still don't understand, is the total ad spend by sport, which is pretty clear cut. If you really want to see why basketball DOES matter, look at the total ad spend numbers, especially for the tournament. Also, look at the viewership by game.

Bowls:

MNC: LSU/Alabama - 24.2MM
Rose: Wisconsin/Oregon - 17.6MM
Sugar: Michigan/VTech - 9.6MM
Fiesta: Stanford/Okie State - 13.7MM

UConn/Butler - 20MM
Final Four - 15.4MM
Final 8 - 11.3MM
Sweet 16 - 5.7MM

Total ad spend:

Basketball:

Regular season: $296MM
Tournament: $1,040MM

Football:

Regular season: $604.5MM
Bowls: $182.5MM

If you want to see why the bowls are dead and we are going to a playoff, just look at those last 4 numbers. Football is worth twice basketball during the regular season, but the postseason is worth about 1/6 college basketballs. Ratings crater for all but the 2-3 best bowl matchups.
 
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