2025 MLB Playoffs Thread | Page 11 | The Boneyard
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2025 MLB Playoffs Thread

navery12 said:
I know there's a lot of prisoner of the moment takes and recency bias in a lot of these conversations, but I don't think this one is even a debate. Shohei Ohtani is the best baseball player who's ever lived
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He is. I think the only competitor is Babe but that was pre-integration.
 
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navery12 said:
I know there's a lot of prisoner of the moment takes and recency bias in a lot of these conversations, but I don't think this one is even a debate. Shohei Ohtani is the best baseball player who's ever lived
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He's certainly a unicorn, but let's have this conversation in 10 years. He's been around 8 years so far and Judge still has a higher WAR over that time even when counting pitching. And I don't think anyone would say Judge is the best ever.
 
superjohn said:
He is. I think the only competitor is Babe but that was pre-integration.
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If Ohtani plays till he's 40 and keeps up the same level of production as his first 8 years, he'll be projected to finish his career around 116 WAR (about this same in fWAR). That would be good for 17th all time. If you take out the steroid users (Bonds, Clemens, ARod), and the pre-integration folks, that still leaves him behind Mays, Aaron, Musial and Ted Williams.
 
storrsroars said:
He's certainly a unicorn, but let's have this conversation in 10 years. He's been around 8 years so far and Judge still has a higher WAR over that time even when counting pitching. And I don't think anyone would say Judge is the best ever.
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We can wait 10 years and you bringing up Aaron Judge will look as foolish then as it does now. Judge only has a higher WAR by 3 wins and he's played 128 more games
 
navery12 said:
We can wait 10 years and you bringing up Aaron Judge will look as foolish then as it does now. Judge only has a higher WAR by 3 wins and he's played 128 more games
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I was comparing the eight years 2018-2025, which represents Ohtani's entire MLB career. Ohtani has played 70 more games and had 100 more plate appearances in that time. Yet Judge leads him 52.9 to 36 in hitting/fielding fWAR.

Add in the pitching, you get another 13.7 fWAR for a total of 49.7 for Ohtani.

So yes, Judge leads him by 3.2 fWAR over those eight years, but Ohtani has had more games and PAs, and pitches. And the time frame I've selected doesn't even include Judge's 4th best year. If I included Judge's abbreviated cup of coffee season and his first full year, his fWAR goes up to 61.6,

If you want to use bWAR, Judge is at 62.3 to Ohtani's 51.5. I'd also like to note I'm not a Yankee fan, nor am I a Judge fanboy. All I'm doing here is being objective and using publicly available data.

What Ohtani did today is the second best appearance in the history of playoffs (I still think Larsen is ahead because nobody expected that and it was in the WS). Ohtani will certainly be in the HoF, probably unanimously. There is no question he's great.

I don't know why the conversation about "best ever" even needs to happen. No matter how many games he plays, he's not going to equal Willie Mays, who is #1 by far in the post-integration/no steroids category.
 
The Brewers had 14 hits in 4 games lol. That’s absolutely pitiful baseball and kind of points to the team they really were more than the team they somehow became. Having said that the bomb Ohtani hit 469 looked even longer than that!
 
mauconnfan said:
The Brewers had 14 hits in 4 games lol. That’s absolutely pitiful baseball and kind of points to the team they really were more than the team they somehow became.
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I find that a bad take. IMO, they simply stopped playing like they had all season and the NLDS. Their K rate went from 20% to 30% vs LAD, chasing more pitches, resulting in fewer walks, fewer runners, less pressure on the defense, and so on. They simply lost their identity because they were pressing.
 
storrsroars said:
I was comparing the eight years 2018-2025, which represents Ohtani's entire MLB career. Ohtani has played 70 more games and had 100 more plate appearances in that time. Yet Judge leads him 52.9 to 36 in hitting/fielding fWAR.

Add in the pitching, you get another 13.7 fWAR for a total of 49.7 for Ohtani.

So yes, Judge leads him by 3.2 fWAR over those eight years, but Ohtani has had more games and PAs, and pitches. And the time frame I've selected doesn't even include Judge's 4th best year. If I included Judge's abbreviated cup of coffee season and his first full year, his fWAR goes up to 61.6,

If you want to use bWAR, Judge is at 62.3 to Ohtani's 51.5. I'd also like to note I'm not a Yankee fan, nor am I a Judge fanboy. All I'm doing here is being objective and using publicly available data.

What Ohtani did today is the second best appearance in the history of playoffs (I still think Larsen is ahead because nobody expected that and it was in the WS). Ohtani will certainly be in the HoF, probably unanimously. There is no question he's great.

I don't know why the conversation about "best ever" even needs to happen. No matter how many games he plays, he's not going to equal Willie Mays, who is #1 by far in the post-integration/no steroids category.
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It's 3 bWAR as well, you're including Judge's full career. But you're right, took out the WAR but not games from Judge's numbers when l looked last night.

But this conversation is just getting crazier. First Aaron Judge, now Willie Mays. You're bringing up people who do not even touch Shohei Ohtani's ability to be both an elite hitter and pitcher at the same time
 
navery12 said:
But this conversation is just getting crazier. First Aaron Judge, now Willie Mays. You're bringing up people who do not even touch Shohei Ohtani's ability to be both an elite hitter and pitcher at the same time
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Ohtani doesn't play the field 150+ games a year. Ohtani gets to room with his white teammates in every city. Ohtani, TBOMK, doesn't deal with racial taunts in MLB cities. Ohtani doesn't appear as if he'll have six seasons above 10 WAR. Ohtani also benefits from facing a diluted talent pool.

Yes, he's an elite hitter and a very good pitcher, although highly unlikely he ever wins a Cy Young. On the pitching side, over 8 years he's pitched in 100 games and compiled 13.7 fWAR. That's a yearly average of 8.5 games pitched and 1.71 fWAR per season.

I could do this all day. But the simple answer to who was the better player is the one where one guy ends his career with something like 50 more WAR than the other. Ohtani may well win the most uniquely talented player, but he's not the best at hitting or at pitching and doesn't field except on pitching days for 5-6 innings.

Enjoy him. Don't know if he'll open the door for others to be a two-way player, but he's fun to watch and adds to the game. But as to "best ever", I'll let the numbers speak.
 
storrsroars said:
I was comparing the eight years 2018-2025, which represents Ohtani's entire MLB career. Ohtani has played 70 more games and had 100 more plate appearances in that time. Yet Judge leads him 52.9 to 36 in hitting/fielding fWAR.

Add in the pitching, you get another 13.7 fWAR for a total of 49.7 for Ohtani.

So yes, Judge leads him by 3.2 fWAR over those eight years, but Ohtani has had more games and PAs, and pitches. And the time frame I've selected doesn't even include Judge's 4th best year. If I included Judge's abbreviated cup of coffee season and his first full year, his fWAR goes up to 61.6,

If you want to use bWAR, Judge is at 62.3 to Ohtani's 51.5. I'd also like to note I'm not a Yankee fan, nor am I a Judge fanboy. All I'm doing here is being objective and using publicly available data.

What Ohtani did today is the second best appearance in the history of playoffs (I still think Larsen is ahead because nobody expected that and it was in the WS). Ohtani will certainly be in the HoF, probably unanimously. There is no question he's great.

I don't know why the conversation about "best ever" even needs to happen. No matter how many games he plays, he's not going to equal Willie Mays, who is #1 by far in the post-integration/no steroids category.
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I'm a Yankees fan and Judge fan boy. Judge is the best hitter of his generation, he's nowhere near as good as Shohei. Ohtani is the best player ever.

"Ohtani will certainly be in the Hall of Fame"

Lolz, ya think?
 
Thing is WAR and MVP are related but not the same thing.

Ohtani contributes hitting and pitching as a 2 way, so is twice the value to the Dodgers over their other players.

Judge being a hitter excels, but for the Yankees might be the most valuable but is not as valuable to ‘a’ team as Ohtani is.

And only 1 is still playing this season.
 
Scoe said:
Ouch well at least Springer was able to walk so X-rays should be negative (crossing fingers). Now get that swelling down got an off day tomorrow, doubt we see him in game 6. Maybe available as a ph.
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Looks like George has a contusion and is not ruled out for Sunday’s game. Schneider says that Springer is one of the toughest guys he knows and will play if he can.
 
storrsroars said:
I find that a bad take. IMO, they simply stopped playing like they had all season and the NLDS. Their K rate went from 20% to 30% vs LAD, chasing more pitches, resulting in fewer walks, fewer runners, less pressure on the defense, and so on. They simply lost their identity because they were pressing.
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I find this a bad take as well. They had many players play over their heads for about a 2 month amazing run. They ended the year awfully losing like 10 or 11 of 14, they were becoming who they actually were and that trend became obvious against even better pitching.
 
mauconnfan said:
I find this a bad take as well. They had many players play over their heads for about a 2 month amazing run. They ended the year awfully losing like 10 or 11 of 14, they were becoming who they actually were and that trend became obvious against even better pitching.
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7-7 their last 14. I think that was more due to them clinching the division so early (they ended up with a 13 game advantage on the Mets). Obviously home field throughout the playoffs was still in play since they only ended up 1 game ahead of the Phillies and 4 ahead of the Dodgers.

I think Milwaukee's biggest problem is they just didn't have established stars. Typically established stars rise to the occasion in the playoffs. Well except the Yankees since they can't seem to get out of their own way 😀. Billy Beane always said he could get the A's to the playoffs with analytics but in the playoffs it didn't work as well since they didn't typically have established stars.
 
storrsroars said:
I was comparing the eight years 2018-2025, which represents Ohtani's entire MLB career. Ohtani has played 70 more games and had 100 more plate appearances in that time. Yet Judge leads him 52.9 to 36 in hitting/fielding fWAR.

Add in the pitching, you get another 13.7 fWAR for a total of 49.7 for Ohtani.

So yes, Judge leads him by 3.2 fWAR over those eight years, but Ohtani has had more games and PAs, and pitches. And the time frame I've selected doesn't even include Judge's 4th best year. If I included Judge's abbreviated cup of coffee season and his first full year, his fWAR goes up to 61.6,

If you want to use bWAR, Judge is at 62.3 to Ohtani's 51.5. I'd also like to note I'm not a Yankee fan, nor am I a Judge fanboy. All I'm doing here is being objective and using publicly available data.

What Ohtani did today is the second best appearance in the history of playoffs (I still think Larsen is ahead because nobody expected that and it was in the WS). Ohtani will certainly be in the HoF, probably unanimously. There is no question he's great.

I don't know why the conversation about "best ever" even needs to happen. No matter how many games he plays, he's not going to equal Willie Mays, who is #1 by far in the post-integration/no steroids category.
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If you asked 30 GM's which player they'd rather have, all 32 would say Ohtani. And they wouldn't flinch.
 
HooperScooper said:
7-7 their last 14. I think that was more due to them clinching the division so early (they ended up with a 13 game advantage on the Mets). Obviously home field throughout the playoffs was still in play since they only ended up 1 game ahead of the Phillies and 4 ahead of the Dodgers.

I think Milwaukee's biggest problem is they just didn't have established stars. Typically established stars rise to the occasion in the playoffs. Well except the Yankees since they can't seem to get out of their own way 😀. Billy Beane always said he could get the A's to the playoffs with analytics but in the playoffs it didn't work as well since they didn't typically have established stars.
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Has nothing to do with losing identity - LAD was just the better team, saved a lot of their juice for the playoffs. LAD SP's gave up 2 ER's in 29 innings. LAD has perfected the science of how to grind through the Regular Season and set themselves up for the post season. Their BP only pitched 7 innings in 4 games, in today's game. That by itself is incredible.

Milwaukee had a bunch of punching judies that lived off a ton of walks in the regular season. 22nd in Homers, lowest of all teams in playoff other than SD (who flamed out fast). You certainly don't want to live off the homer, but you also want that run potential on your roster.

It would have been interesting had Milwaukee found a way to win that first game and if that tilted anything, I honestly don't think so.
 
mauconnfan said:
I find this a bad take as well. They had many players play over their heads for about a 2 month amazing run. They ended the year awfully losing like 10 or 11 of 14, they were becoming who they actually were and that trend became obvious against even better pitching.
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They ended the regular season going losing 7 out of 14.
 
HooperScooper said:
Which as I said above probably had more to do with their clinching the division so early rather than some fall off from how they were playing before that.
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Agreed. They just ran into a juggernaut in the Dodgers.

I pulled a RuffRuff and didn't read the entire thread before posting.
 

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