2004 UConn vs. Gonzaga

[B1GEast]

Agreed. The 04' people are crazy

The 2004 team was better than the 99 team

 

[Lefty2one]

We had six future 1st rounders including four lottery picks, plus Rashad and Denham. That team was very up and down due to a variety of issues (Okafor's back, Charlie's eligibility, Gordon's broken nose, Williams' ineligibility) but on all cylinders we paste this Gonzaga team. If you picked any random night from the 2003-04 season then sure, we could lose to Gonzaga. But when healthy and normal we'd smoke this Gonzaga team.

 

[CallMeBruce]

This is probably the best point and maybe the only thing that matters. Bad match up for Timme and Zags struggle significantly if Timme doesn't play well.

They haven't lost a game all year. You guys are delusional.

 

[UCLJ0211]

The level of talent across college basketball was so much better 16 years ago that you have to assume UConn wins.
Gonzaga stands out now because of the weak state of the game.

It was even better 17 years ago. 😉

 

[QDOG5]

We had six future 1st rounders including four lottery picks, plus Rashad and Denham.

Gonzaga has one guaranteed pro in Suggs. They almost lost to an 11 seed last night. UConn 2004 would have routed them.

 

[navery12]

Gonzaga has one guaranteed pro in Suggs. They almost lost to an 11 seed last night. UConn 2004 would have routed them.

Gonzaga has 3 projected 1st rounders including 2 lottery picks (though I suspect Kispert drops out of the lottery) and then Drew Timme who's projected as a 2nd rounder this year. And then Andrew Nembhard who's projected as a 2nd rounder next year, which I'll give you is not a guarantee. The other 4 are locks to get drafted this year

 

[Lefty2one]

Yeah, Kispert is a guaranteed pro. I assume Timme will hang around the league for a while. Ayayi is an interesting prospect.

 

[UofCT]

KU and WVU were not really that good..especially compared to past KU teams. Gonzaga is obviously a great team, but quite a few championship teams from the 2000s would run these guys out of the gym. Talent stuck around longer back then

We are obviously nitpicking here and we are incredibly biased but great teams usually beat great teams and I just don't see that on Gonzaga's schedule this year.

Their best wins are:
Iowa in December
Kansas in November
West VA in December
USC in March

 

[navery12]

We are obviously nitpicking here and we are incredibly biased but great teams usually beat great teams and I just don't see that on Gonzaga's schedule this year.

Their best wins are:
Iowa in December
Kansas in November
West VA in December
USC in March

Am I supposed to think those wins suck? Because that's the KenPom 6, 7, 23, and 30 teams. Those are very good wins

 

[superjohn]

We had six future 1st rounders including four lottery picks, plus Rashad and Denham. That team was very up and down due to a variety of issues (Okafor's back, Charlie's eligibility, Gordon's broken nose, Williams' ineligibility) but on all cylinders we paste this Gonzaga team. If you picked any random night from the 2003-04 season then sure, we could lose to Gonzaga. But when healthy and normal we'd smoke this Gonzaga team.

That's the way I see it, that UConn team was one of the best shotblocking teams in the history of college basketball and shot 40% from three. When healthy and at full strength it really isn't close. Only reason the final 4 game against Duke was close was because the refs and Calhoun took Okafor out of the game in the first few minutes.

 

[gsmooth]

It would be a good game. I'm a UConn fan so I think UConn wins, but that team wasn't unbeatable. We can talk all we want about how that team wouldn't lose to another team, but they lost to a 19-13 Notre Dame that lost in the Quarters of the NIT.

The talent level is certainly lower in general, but this Zags team has multiple pros. Each team had an equal amount of Top 100 talent, too.

Yeah exactly. I don't get the "beat the brakes" off this Gonzaga team talk. I think they would win against this Gonzaga team, but it certainly wouldn't "beat the brakes" off of them. At the same time this Gonzaga team, which I like very much, wouldn't go through the Big East in 2004 undefeated. That Pittsburgh 2004 team was really good, too, and had championship aspirations as well.

Edit: wouldn't

 

[gsmooth]

The 2004 team went through a few rough patches but the talent level just isn’t the same now.

If I recall those rough patches had to do with OK4s back flaring up and Gordon's broken nose. Once they were healthy, it was all systems GO

 

[gsmooth]

Am I supposed to think those wins suck? Because that's the KenPom 6, 7, 23, and 30 teams. Those are very good wins

Not only that but they dropped 98 on a Virginia team that is known to slow the game down and frustrate their opponents with their defense.

 

[Scoe]

Could the Duke and Ok State teams have beaten this Zags team in a single elimination game if the answer is yes then we know UConn wins would be a great game but we prevail.

 

[navery12]

Not only that but they dropped 98 on a Virginia team that is known to slow the game down and frustrate their opponents with their defense.

That's also a good point, that list doesn't include their win over #18 KenPom Virginia and their 3 wins over #19 BYU

 

[tzznandrew]

That's also a good point, that list doesn't include their win over #18 KenPom Virginia and their 3 wins over #19 BYU

The Big East wasn't even great in 2004.

Gonzaga wouldn't have gone undefeated, but if you look at the teams Gonzaga beat in the regular season and up through the Final Four (not counting the Final Four), it's better than 2004's wins. If you assume Gonzaga wins it all, I'll put in bold the Final Four teams.

Here are Top 30 wins for both teams:

2021 Gonzaga
2 Baylor
6 USC
7 Iowa
13 UCLA
18 Virginia
19 BYU
19 BYU
19 BYU
21 Creighton
23 West Virginia
30 Kansas

2004 UConn
1 Duke
5 Pittsburgh
5 Pittsburgh
8 Georgia Tech
23 Vanderbilt
27 Seton Hall
29 Alabama
30 Syracuse

 

[Kitaman]

They haven't lost a game all year. You guys are delusional.

Sanity has never been a requirement here.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah, Kispert is a guaranteed pro. I assume Timme will hang around the league for a while. Ayayi is an interesting prospect.

And it's not like our dudes were world-beaters in the NBA. NBA wasn't good at scouting then. No way Brown is a second round pick in 2006 now. Also, Boone didn't survive his first contract, Armstrong did only years later come back for one season. The other 3 topped out as good pieces, but never all stars.

2004 was a very good team. It gets the disrespect by some people because it's pros weren't great and it played down to its competition. 6 losses is a decent amount, and its regular season wins weren't all that impressive.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Gonzaga has one guaranteed pro in Suggs. They almost lost to an 11 seed last night. UConn 2004 would have routed them.

Not we're going way too far in the other direction. They have more than one guaranteed pro on that team.

 

[superjohn]

And it's not like our dudes were world-beaters in the NBA. NBA wasn't good at scouting then. No way Brown is a second round pick in 2006 now. Also, Boone didn't survive his first contract, Armstrong did only years later come back for one season. The other 3 topped out as good pieces, but never all stars.

2004 was a very good team. It gets the disrespect by some people because it's pros weren't great and it played down to its competition. 6 losses is a decent amount, and its regular season wins weren't all that impressive.

So UConn was a very good team with a lot of "buts" for you...

You realize Okafor's back was bad since his junior year of college and then more injuries kept us from ever seeing what he would've been as a pro, right? You realize Gordon was more than just a good piece on the Bulls, right?

 

[tzznandrew]

So UConn was a very good team with a lot of "buts" for you...

You realize Okafor's back was bad since his junior year of college and then more injuries kept us from ever seeing what he would've been as a pro, right? You realize Gordon was more than just a good piece on the Bulls, right?

Okafor's back was an issue in the season in question, too, right? So the injury in question affected both the season we're discussing and the rest of his career. He may have been a much better pro than he was, but that injury is that injury, and that injury cost him many games at the beginning and end of the 2004 season.

Gordon was someone they loved and he had some great games. He had a glorious series against the Celtics. He was a very good offensive piece but a disaster on defense. If he were more than "a good piece" they would have tried to hold onto him more than they did. The team was better without him (part of that is of course because of Rose made him dispensable, but that's the problem, he was dispensable).

 

[superjohn]

Okafor's back was an issue in the season in question, too, right? So the injury in question affected both the season we're discussing and the rest of his career. He may have been a much better pro than he was, but that injury is that injury, and that injury cost him many games at the beginning and end of the 2004 season.

Gordon was someone they loved and he had some great games. He had a glorious series against the Celtics. He was a very good offensive piece but a disaster on defense. If he were more than "a good piece" they would have tried to hold onto him more than they did. The team was better without him (part of that is of course because of Rose made him dispensable, but that's the problem, he was dispensable).

Yes and Okafor was still the best player in the country and one of the best college defensive players ever with the bad back. The back, ankle, knee, neck etc. kept him from being the NBA player he could have been. Ben was more than just a good piece with the Bulls. I watched his whole career out here, he was the top scorer on those playoff teams and was the best 4th quarter scorer in the NBA one of those seasons. They were an entirely different team without him. Thibs, Rose MVP, Noah top 5 MVP defensive player of year, Boozer, Taj etc.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Emeka>>>>>Timme

He doesn’t have a stupid obnoxious Fast Times at Ridgemont High gimmick though

 

[Fishy]

This came up in the game thread. How do you see the teams matching up and who wins?

UConn by several zillion.

 

[Kitaman]

Sometimes we just need to appreciate college players for what they are; 'amateurs''.

NBA shouldn't matter when judging college players on their college careers.

For example, Adam Morrison (Zags theme) was a terrific college baller, who would have started for every college team, including those with today's NBA All Stars. A little closer to home is our 1st team AA Napier who was also a phenomenal college athlete. Both played with limitations, Bazz (size) and AM (diabetes) but overcame them to excel.

I just don't think its fair to discount a college players achievements based on pro failures.

 

[Travelman6]

Sometimes we just need to appreciate college players for what they are; 'amateurs''.

NBA shouldn't matter when judging college players on their college careers.

For example, Adam Morrison (Zags theme) was a terrific college baller, who would have started for every college team, including those with today's NBA All Stars. A little closer to home is our 1st team AA Napier who was also a phenomenal college athletes. Both played with limitations, Bazz (size) and AM (diabetes) but overcame them to excel.

I just don't think its fair to discount a college players achievements based on pro failures.

Fredette is the best (modern) example of this.

 

[Lefty2one]

And it's not like our dudes were world-beaters in the NBA. NBA wasn't good at scouting then. No way Brown is a second round pick in 2006 now. Also, Boone didn't survive his first contract, Armstrong did only years later come back for one season. The other 3 topped out as good pieces, but never all stars.

2004 was a very good team. It gets the disrespect by some people because it's pros weren't great and it played down to its competition. 6 losses is a decent amount, and its regular season wins weren't all that impressive.

Those other aughts teams weren't packed with great pros.

2000 MSU
2002 Maryland
2005 UNC
2008 Kansas
2009 UNC

If you assemble a starting five of NBA players from all of those teams put together I guess you're going with...

Ty Lawson
Danny Green
Morris Peterson
Marvin Willams
Chris Wilcox, I guess?

If you want you can throw in Jason Richardson, who was a freshman for '00 Michigan State and played 15 mpg and averaged 5 ppg.

 

[Kitaman]

Fredette is the best (modern) example of this.

Yeah I did a quick check and found this interesting tidbit; note the lack of high level NBA talent (only one All Star):

NCAA Naismith Player of the Year

2010	Evan Turner	Ohio State	G	Junior[7]
2011	Jimmer Fredette	Brigham Young	G	Senior
2012	Anthony Davis	Kentucky	C	Freshman
2013	Trey Burke	Michigan	G	Sophomore
2014	Doug McDermott	Creighton	F	Senior
2015	Frank Kaminsky	Wisconsin	F	Senior
2016	Buddy Hield	Oklahoma	G	Senior
2017	Frank Mason III	Kansas	G	Senior
2018	Jalen Brunson	Villanova	G	Junior
2019	Zion Williamson	Duke	F	Freshman
2020	Obi Toppin[8]	Dayton	F	Sophomore
2021	Luka Garza[9]	Iowa	C	Senior

 

[Lefty2one]

Yeah I did a quick check and found this interesting tidbit; note the lack of high level NBA talent (only one All Star):

NCAA Naismith Player of the Year

2010	Evan Turner	Ohio State	G	Junior[7]
2011	Jimmer Fredette	Brigham Young	G	Senior
2012	Anthony Davis	Kentucky	C	Freshman
2013	Trey Burke	Michigan	G	Sophomore
2014	Doug McDermott	Creighton	F	Senior
2015	Frank Kaminsky	Wisconsin	F	Senior
2016	Buddy Hield	Oklahoma	G	Senior
2017	Frank Mason III	Kansas	G	Senior
2018	Jalen Brunson	Villanova	G	Junior
2019	Zion Williamson	Duke	F	Freshman
2020	Obi Toppin[8]	Dayton	F	Sophomore
2021	Luka Garza[9]	Iowa	C	Senior

Forget all-stars, how many of these dudes were even consistent starters in the NBA? AD, Zion, and, Hield. That's it.

 

[aburks41]

Forget all-stars, how many of these dudes were even consistent starters in the NBA? AD, Zion, and, Hield. That's it.

Yeah but outside of generational guys like AD and Zion, most NPOY's are upperclassmen. And in todays game, most upperclassmen are upperclassmen because they aren't NBA caliber guys