2004 UConn vs. Gonzaga

[Excalibur]

But, but, but, Kenpom!!!!!!

 

[HeGotGame]

You think that saying a 12th overall pick couldn’t find minutes on that team supports your argument?

He couldn’t find mins on any of the top 150 teams in the country that year, or the next.

 

[HeGotGame]

But, but, but, Kenpom!!!!!!

The most respected anylicts guy or a guy on a message board who can barely string two coherent sentences together. I know who I trust.

 

[superjohn]

One of those guys was suspended for the year and one never played, other than that cool.

Marcus played the whole first semester and was Taliek's backup and Hilton played but you weren't getting over 10 minutes per game when you had by far the best froncourt in the country ahead of you. Nothing worse than our own fans not knowing our own history and denigrating our own players.

 

[superjohn]

He couldn’t find mins on any of the top 150 teams in the country that year, or the next.

You're making a fool of yourself.

 

[Excalibur]

I’m reminded why I rarely bother with this place anymore. The level of stupid is too much.

The most respected anylicts guy or a guy on a message board who can barely string two coherent sentences together. I know who I trust.

If you understood the first thing about Kenpom and its limitations you’d be worth having a conversation with.

 

[HeGotGame]

Marcus played the whole first semester and was Taliek's backup and Hilton played but you weren't getting over 10 minutes per game when you had by far the best froncourt in the country ahead of you. Nothing worse than our own fans not knowing our own history and denigrating our own players.

You’re right he was suspended second semester. And point remains on Hilton, he never played. I’m not going to use guys who get 6 mins ago on Gonzaga to discuss their NBA potential as an arguemrnt to support how good they are.

 

[HeGotGame]

Marcus played the whole first semester and was Taliek's backup and Hilton played but you weren't getting over 10 minutes per game when you had by far the best froncourt in the country ahead of you. Nothing worse than our own fans not knowing our own history and denigrating our own players.

Also, I never said Gonzaga would beat that team, or vice versa, my point is the people who scoff at the idea or downplay how good this Gonzaga team is are silly.

 

[superjohn]

You’re right he was suspended second semester. And point remains on Hilton, he never played. I’m not going to use guys who get 6 mins ago on Gonzaga to discuss their NBA potential as an arguemrnt to support how good they are.

Hilton Armstrong couldn't find any minutes on any of the top 150 teams in the country as a sophomore or junior yet managed to find plenty of minutes as a sophomore and junior on the best frontcourt in the country.

He couldn’t find mins on any of the top 150 teams in the country that year, or the next.

 

[Kitaman]

One of those guys was suspended for the year and one never played, other than that cool.

I appreciate google, and I know I'm a casual fan, but are you really going to make me (and probably others) google this? Marcus Williams is one, and the other . . . . ?

 

[HeGotGame]

Hilton Armstrong couldn't find any minutes on any of the top 150 teams in the country as a sophomore or junior yet managed to find plenty of minutes as a sophomore and junior on the best frontcourt in the country.

Plenty?

All 5 in the round 2 loss as a junior? Same amount per game as Ed Nelson

 

[HeGotGame]

I appreciate google, and I know I'm a casual fan, but are you really going to make me (and probably others) google this? Marcus Williams is one, and the other . . . . ?

Hilton Armstrong

 

[superjohn]

Plenty?

All 5 in the round 2 loss as a junior? Same amount per game as Ed Nelson

He averaged 9.1 mpg and 12.4 mpg his sophomore and junior year. UConn had the best frontcourt in the country both years.

You said he couldn't find minutes on any of the top 150 teams in the country his sophomore or junior year yet he found 9.1 and 12.4 on the best frontcourt in the country both years.

 

[Lefty2one]

Comparing analytics across eras is incredibly difficult, if not impossible. Many people, including myself, think college hoops as a whole took a nosedive in overall talent and level of play about a decade ago. There have been so many underwhelming champions over the last decade or so: '10 Duke, '11 UConn, '13 Louisville, '14 UConn, '16 Nova, '17 UNC, '19 Virginia. You have two years of one-and-done monsters ('12 UK, '15 Duke) and a darn good '18 Villanova team.

The college game is often ugly; yes, you get some outliers. I don't have a single friend (late 30s/early 40s) who still follows college hoops and they were all huge fans ten years ago--most aren't UConn fans. They simply can't watch it compared to the NBA and I don't blame them. I can't bring up college hoops in our group chat of nine guys--I get chided lol.

Comparing Top 30 wins this season vs 16 seasons ago doesn't do anything for me as I believe the Top 30 teams 15-20 years ago were significantly better than today's teams.

 

[HeGotGame]

He averaged 9.1 mpg and 12.4 mpg his sophomore and junior year. UConn had the best frontcourt in the country both years.

You said he couldn't find minutes on any of the top 150 teams in the country his sophomore or junior year yet he found 9.1 and 12.4 on the best frontcourt in the country both years.

Well it was hyperbole to the notion of including a player who was suspended and another who barely played as support for any hypothetical national championship game between the two. As I said I wouldn’t include some one like Ballo as an argument for this years Zags team

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think players just have sounder offensive fundamentals today than they did 20 years ago. Analytics have changed basketball all the way down to the youth level, and players have a much better handle on shot selection today than prior generations did. I think it warps the stats a little as a result, because teams took more stupid shots back in the day than they do now.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Emeka>>>>>Timme

Emeka? How about Josh, Hilton and Charlie?

 

[freescooter]

Please, 2004 UConn no doubt. Ben Gordon, Emeka Okafor, Charlie Villanueva, Rashad Anderson, Taliek, Denham Brown, Boone, Armstrong... While I also agree 99’ was our best team, our 2004 team is way better than this Gonzaga team.

College basketball in general doesn’t have near the talent it did then. The first three guys above wouldn’t even have been in school anymore if that team were assembled today.

I agree we win probably by 10. I don’t know that the talent is that different but teams were better. Emeka taliek Gordon were all upper class men. They had played together. And had played under pressure.

 

[Excalibur]

I think players just have sounder offensive fundamentals today than they did 20 years ago. Analytics have changed basketball all the way down to the youth level, and players have a much better handle on shot selection today than prior generations did. I think it warps the stats a little as a result, because teams took more stupid shots back in the day than they do now.

In general that's true, even though the the dilution of talent has hurt college basketball in the last 10-15 years.

The 2004 team wouldn't really fall into this, though. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I suspect that you'd find their shot distribution would compare favorably to teams from this era. Most attempts either in close (Okafor in the post, lobs to him and Boone, Villanueva as well down low) or from deep (Gordon, Anderson and Denham Brown). Taliek got most of his points in close off of penetration. The only two players who took a lot of mid-range shots were Denham and Gordon (who was so good scoring on all three levels that it didn't matter).

 

[auror]

Gonzaga starts a senior, 2 juniors, a soph, and a freshman. '04 UConn started a senior, 2 juniors, a soph, and a freshman. The Zag juniors (and senior) went to an Elite 8 their freshman year. The UConn juniors (and senior) went to an Elite 8 their freshman year.

Both teams are coached by coaches that had been to 1 Championship game to that point. Gonzaga's coach Mark Few has made 21 straight NCAA appearances with a 36 and 21 record (with a chance to add 1 more win today). Jim Calhoun had been to 17 NCAA tournaments by the end of 2004 (5 with Northeastern included) with a 34-15 record. Few was actually more experienced at this point, but Calhoun more successful in the Big Dance.

 

[Rico444]

The Big East wasn't even great in 2004.

Gonzaga wouldn't have gone undefeated, but if you look at the teams Gonzaga beat in the regular season and up through the Final Four (not counting the Final Four), it's better than 2004's wins. If you assume Gonzaga wins it all, I'll put in bold the Final Four teams.

Here are Top 30 wins for both teams:

2021 Gonzaga
2 Baylor
6 USC
7 Iowa
13 UCLA
18 Virginia
19 BYU
19 BYU
19 BYU
21 Creighton
23 West Virginia
30 Kansas

2004 UConn
1 Duke
5 Pittsburgh
5 Pittsburgh
8 Georgia Tech
23 Vanderbilt
27 Seton Hall
29 Alabama
30 Syracuse

Gonzaga didn't beat Baylor this year, that game got canceled.

 

[auror]

Gonzaga didn't beat Baylor this year, that game got canceled.

I've got great news for you about tonight's game (he said if you assume they win it all).

 

[nelsonmuntz]

In general that's true, even though the the dilution of talent has hurt college basketball in the last 10-15 years.

The 2004 team wouldn't really fall into this, though. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I suspect that you'd find their shot distribution would compare favorably to teams from this era. Most attempts either in close (Okafor in the post, lobs to him and Boone, Villanueva as well down low) or from deep (Gordon, Anderson and Denham Brown). Taliek got most of his points in close off of penetration. The only two players who took a lot of mid-range shots were Denham and Gordon (who was so good scoring on all three levels that it didn't matter).

You keep asserting the dilution of talent as if it is an accepted fact. It is not. Players started going pro early a long time ago. If you were right, Lebron James would have been playing for Ohio State in 2004. I will check, but I don't think he was.

If anything, the college talent is a little less diluted because fewer Americans are making the NBA than they were 20 years ago. I have not done the research yet, but I also think that in 2021 there are fewer players just lighting their college careers on fire by declaring when they have no chance of making the league, whereas there were dozens that would do that every year in the 90's and into the 2000's. Players get more support from coaches and can do a no-fault declare now, which they couldn't back then. There are probably an extra 30-40 high quality players that stay in college longer now who would have left early in the system that existed 20 years ago.

 

[superjohn]

You keep asserting the dilution of talent as if it is an accepted fact. It is not. Players started going pro early a long time ago. If you were right, Lebron James would have been playing for Ohio State in 2004. I will check, but I don't think he was.

If anything, the college talent is a little less diluted because fewer Americans are making the NBA than they were 20 years ago. I have not done the research yet, but I also think that in 2021 there are fewer players just lighting their college careers on fire by declaring when they have no chance of making the league, whereas there were dozens that would do that every year in the 90's and into the 2000's. Players get more support from coaches and can do a no-fault declare now, which they couldn't back then. There are probably an extra 30-40 high quality players that stay in college longer now who would have left early in the system that existed 20 years ago.

Way more underclassmen are leaving every single year than the year before, it has been this trend over the past decade or two and way more of them aren't making the league than before. This is such a silly argument, of course the level of play was better back in the day in the college game, you had the best players in the world staying into their upperclassmen years instead of leaving after their first year or skipping college all together.

 

[tzznandrew]

Gonzaga didn't beat Baylor this year, that game got canceled.

"If you assume Gonzaga wins it all, I'll put in bold the Final Four teams."

That was assuming a victory tonight. Maybe could have been clearer in phrasing.