2004 UConn vs. Gonzaga | Page 4 | The Boneyard

2004 UConn vs. Gonzaga

I think players just have sounder offensive fundamentals today than they did 20 years ago. Analytics have changed basketball all the way down to the youth level, and players have a much better handle on shot selection today than prior generations did. I think it warps the stats a little as a result, because teams took more stupid shots back in the day than they do now.
 
Hoophound said:
Please, 2004 UConn no doubt. Ben Gordon, Emeka Okafor, Charlie Villanueva, Rashad Anderson, Taliek, Denham Brown, Boone, Armstrong... While I also agree 99’ was our best team, our 2004 team is way better than this Gonzaga team.

College basketball in general doesn’t have near the talent it did then. The first three guys above wouldn’t even have been in school anymore if that team were assembled today.
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I agree we win probably by 10. I don’t know that the talent is that different but teams were better. Emeka taliek Gordon were all upper class men. They had played together. And had played under pressure.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I think players just have sounder offensive fundamentals today than they did 20 years ago. Analytics have changed basketball all the way down to the youth level, and players have a much better handle on shot selection today than prior generations did. I think it warps the stats a little as a result, because teams took more stupid shots back in the day than they do now.
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In general that's true, even though the the dilution of talent has hurt college basketball in the last 10-15 years.

The 2004 team wouldn't really fall into this, though. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I suspect that you'd find their shot distribution would compare favorably to teams from this era. Most attempts either in close (Okafor in the post, lobs to him and Boone, Villanueva as well down low) or from deep (Gordon, Anderson and Denham Brown). Taliek got most of his points in close off of penetration. The only two players who took a lot of mid-range shots were Denham and Gordon (who was so good scoring on all three levels that it didn't matter).
 
Gonzaga starts a senior, 2 juniors, a soph, and a freshman. '04 UConn started a senior, 2 juniors, a soph, and a freshman. The Zag juniors (and senior) went to an Elite 8 their freshman year. The UConn juniors (and senior) went to an Elite 8 their freshman year.

Both teams are coached by coaches that had been to 1 Championship game to that point. Gonzaga's coach Mark Few has made 21 straight NCAA appearances with a 36 and 21 record (with a chance to add 1 more win today). Jim Calhoun had been to 17 NCAA tournaments by the end of 2004 (5 with Northeastern included) with a 34-15 record. Few was actually more experienced at this point, but Calhoun more successful in the Big Dance.
 
tzznandrew said:
The Big East wasn't even great in 2004.

Gonzaga wouldn't have gone undefeated, but if you look at the teams Gonzaga beat in the regular season and up through the Final Four (not counting the Final Four), it's better than 2004's wins. If you assume Gonzaga wins it all, I'll put in bold the Final Four teams.

Here are Top 30 wins for both teams:

2021 Gonzaga
2 Baylor
6 USC
7 Iowa
13 UCLA
18 Virginia
19 BYU
19 BYU
19 BYU
21 Creighton
23 West Virginia
30 Kansas

2004 UConn
1 Duke
5 Pittsburgh
5 Pittsburgh
8 Georgia Tech
23 Vanderbilt
27 Seton Hall
29 Alabama
30 Syracuse
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Gonzaga didn't beat Baylor this year, that game got canceled.
 
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Excalibur said:
In general that's true, even though the the dilution of talent has hurt college basketball in the last 10-15 years.

The 2004 team wouldn't really fall into this, though. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I suspect that you'd find their shot distribution would compare favorably to teams from this era. Most attempts either in close (Okafor in the post, lobs to him and Boone, Villanueva as well down low) or from deep (Gordon, Anderson and Denham Brown). Taliek got most of his points in close off of penetration. The only two players who took a lot of mid-range shots were Denham and Gordon (who was so good scoring on all three levels that it didn't matter).
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You keep asserting the dilution of talent as if it is an accepted fact. It is not. Players started going pro early a long time ago. If you were right, Lebron James would have been playing for Ohio State in 2004. I will check, but I don't think he was.

If anything, the college talent is a little less diluted because fewer Americans are making the NBA than they were 20 years ago. I have not done the research yet, but I also think that in 2021 there are fewer players just lighting their college careers on fire by declaring when they have no chance of making the league, whereas there were dozens that would do that every year in the 90's and into the 2000's. Players get more support from coaches and can do a no-fault declare now, which they couldn't back then. There are probably an extra 30-40 high quality players that stay in college longer now who would have left early in the system that existed 20 years ago.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
You keep asserting the dilution of talent as if it is an accepted fact. It is not. Players started going pro early a long time ago. If you were right, Lebron James would have been playing for Ohio State in 2004. I will check, but I don't think he was.

If anything, the college talent is a little less diluted because fewer Americans are making the NBA than they were 20 years ago. I have not done the research yet, but I also think that in 2021 there are fewer players just lighting their college careers on fire by declaring when they have no chance of making the league, whereas there were dozens that would do that every year in the 90's and into the 2000's. Players get more support from coaches and can do a no-fault declare now, which they couldn't back then. There are probably an extra 30-40 high quality players that stay in college longer now who would have left early in the system that existed 20 years ago.
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Way more underclassmen are leaving every single year than the year before, it has been this trend over the past decade or two and way more of them aren't making the league than before. This is such a silly argument, of course the level of play was better back in the day in the college game, you had the best players in the world staying into their upperclassmen years instead of leaving after their first year or skipping college all together.
 
superjohn said:
Way more underclassmen are leaving every single year than the year before, it has been this trend over the past decade or two and way more of them aren't making the league than before. This is such a silly argument, of course the level of play was better back in the day in the college game, you had the best players in the world staying into their upperclassmen years instead of leaving after their first year or skipping college all together.
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Prove it. This is math, so you should be able to prove it.
 
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tzznandrew said:
"If you assume Gonzaga wins it all, I'll put in bold the Final Four teams."

That was assuming a victory tonight. Maybe could have been clearer in phrasing.
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Reading is fundamental; thanks for being patient with me!
 
superjohn said:
1999 40 underclassmen put their names in the draft, 11 went undrafted. In 2004 it was up to 91 underclassmen, 14 went undrafted. In 2019 it was 237 underclassmen, 52 went undrafted.
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Yeah. More declare, and also a lot more come back (more come back to school in 2019 than declared in 2004). But that's still net more leaving than in past years. Should be noted that NBA added the 2 way contracts which added more better paying professional jobs that go to a lot of those undrafted guys (and to seniors).
 
nelsonmuntz said:
You keep asserting the dilution of talent as if it is an accepted fact. It is not. Players started going pro early a long time ago. If you were right, Lebron James would have been playing for Ohio State in 2004. I will check, but I don't think he was.

If anything, the college talent is a little less diluted because fewer Americans are making the NBA than they were 20 years ago. I have not done the research yet, but I also think that in 2021 there are fewer players just lighting their college careers on fire by declaring when they have no chance of making the league, whereas there were dozens that would do that every year in the 90's and into the 2000's. Players get more support from coaches and can do a no-fault declare now, which they couldn't back then. There are probably an extra 30-40 high quality players that stay in college longer now who would have left early in the system that existed 20 years ago.
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Our 2004 championship team had the #2 and #3 picks in the draft who were both juniors. The last junior or senior taken in the Top 5 was five years ago and was Kris Dunn, who's been a massive bust and didn't lead Providence very far.
 
Lefty2one said:
Kris Dunn, who's been a massive bust and didn't lead Providence very far.
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Things were never the same for him after the infamous casino nightclub dust up between his people and Drummond’s people.
 
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superjohn said:
Okafor would've snapped Timme in half. Kispert may have been the Zags best rim protector tonight.
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Seriously..I revise my earlier statement that we win by 20. We win by 30
 
Lefty2one said:
We had six future 1st rounders including four lottery picks, plus Rashad and Denham. That team was very up and down due to a variety of issues (Okafor's back, Charlie's eligibility, Gordon's broken nose, Williams' ineligibility) but on all cylinders we paste this Gonzaga team. If you picked any random night from the 2003-04 season then sure, we could lose to Gonzaga. But when healthy and normal we'd smoke this Gonzaga team.
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Yup. 2004 was a weird year but that team was so loaded it overcame it all.
 
Lefty2one said:
Yeah, Kispert is a guaranteed pro. I assume Timme will hang around the league for a while. Ayayi is an interesting prospect.
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Suggs and kispert are basically lotto locks.

Ayayi is a borderline first rounder.

Not sure what to make of timme as a pro.
 
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the Q said:
Suggs and kispert are basically lotto locks.

Ayayi is a borderline first rounder.

Not sure what to make of timme as a pro.
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Some GM is going to get fired over picking Kispert up there.
 
the Q said:
Suggs and kispert are basically lotto locks.

Ayayi is a borderline first rounder.

Not sure what to make of timme as a pro.
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Kispert is a terrible athlete. God help whatever sucker takes him in the lotto lol. He'll be out of the league before his rookie contract is up
 
Some of y’all should be ashamed of yourselves LOL. Y’all need to start apologizing for the disrespect to Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, the sniper himself Rashad Anderson and the rest of the ‘04 UCONN Huskies. Sorry to say but we would wipe the floor with this zags team
 
superjohn said:
Some GM is going to get fired over picking Kispert up there.
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I look at him like devin vessel style last year. He’s a late lotto guy. Wont be a home run but shoots it well enough that he won’t embarrass you.

He’s a fun fit for New Orleans around Zion.
 
huskyfan224 said:
I’m just happy I let KenPom tell me things
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It definitely gives good insight, but this year it wouldn’t be as effective this year as teams didn’t play that many out of conference games. Plus COVID layoffs effec some teams more than others
 
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