2004 UConn vs. Gonzaga

[tzznandrew]

So UConn was a very good team with a lot of "buts" for you...

You realize Okafor's back was bad since his junior year of college and then more injuries kept us from ever seeing what he would've been as a pro, right? You realize Gordon was more than just a good piece on the Bulls, right?

Okafor's back was an issue in the season in question, too, right? So the injury in question affected both the season we're discussing and the rest of his career. He may have been a much better pro than he was, but that injury is that injury, and that injury cost him many games at the beginning and end of the 2004 season.

Gordon was someone they loved and he had some great games. He had a glorious series against the Celtics. He was a very good offensive piece but a disaster on defense. If he were more than "a good piece" they would have tried to hold onto him more than they did. The team was better without him (part of that is of course because of Rose made him dispensable, but that's the problem, he was dispensable).

 

[superjohn]

Okafor's back was an issue in the season in question, too, right? So the injury in question affected both the season we're discussing and the rest of his career. He may have been a much better pro than he was, but that injury is that injury, and that injury cost him many games at the beginning and end of the 2004 season.

Gordon was someone they loved and he had some great games. He had a glorious series against the Celtics. He was a very good offensive piece but a disaster on defense. If he were more than "a good piece" they would have tried to hold onto him more than they did. The team was better without him (part of that is of course because of Rose made him dispensable, but that's the problem, he was dispensable).

Yes and Okafor was still the best player in the country and one of the best college defensive players ever with the bad back. The back, ankle, knee, neck etc. kept him from being the NBA player he could have been. Ben was more than just a good piece with the Bulls. I watched his whole career out here, he was the top scorer on those playoff teams and was the best 4th quarter scorer in the NBA one of those seasons. They were an entirely different team without him. Thibs, Rose MVP, Noah top 5 MVP defensive player of year, Boozer, Taj etc.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Emeka>>>>>Timme

He doesn’t have a stupid obnoxious Fast Times at Ridgemont High gimmick though

 

[Fishy]

This came up in the game thread. How do you see the teams matching up and who wins?

UConn by several zillion.

 

[Kitaman]

Sometimes we just need to appreciate college players for what they are; 'amateurs''.

NBA shouldn't matter when judging college players on their college careers.

For example, Adam Morrison (Zags theme) was a terrific college baller, who would have started for every college team, including those with today's NBA All Stars. A little closer to home is our 1st team AA Napier who was also a phenomenal college athlete. Both played with limitations, Bazz (size) and AM (diabetes) but overcame them to excel.

I just don't think its fair to discount a college players achievements based on pro failures.

 

[Travelman6]

Sometimes we just need to appreciate college players for what they are; 'amateurs''.

NBA shouldn't matter when judging college players on their college careers.

For example, Adam Morrison (Zags theme) was a terrific college baller, who would have started for every college team, including those with today's NBA All Stars. A little closer to home is our 1st team AA Napier who was also a phenomenal college athletes. Both played with limitations, Bazz (size) and AM (diabetes) but overcame them to excel.

I just don't think its fair to discount a college players achievements based on pro failures.

Fredette is the best (modern) example of this.

 

[Lefty2one]

And it's not like our dudes were world-beaters in the NBA. NBA wasn't good at scouting then. No way Brown is a second round pick in 2006 now. Also, Boone didn't survive his first contract, Armstrong did only years later come back for one season. The other 3 topped out as good pieces, but never all stars.

2004 was a very good team. It gets the disrespect by some people because it's pros weren't great and it played down to its competition. 6 losses is a decent amount, and its regular season wins weren't all that impressive.

Those other aughts teams weren't packed with great pros.

2000 MSU
2002 Maryland
2005 UNC
2008 Kansas
2009 UNC

If you assemble a starting five of NBA players from all of those teams put together I guess you're going with...

Ty Lawson
Danny Green
Morris Peterson
Marvin Willams
Chris Wilcox, I guess?

If you want you can throw in Jason Richardson, who was a freshman for '00 Michigan State and played 15 mpg and averaged 5 ppg.

 

[Kitaman]

Fredette is the best (modern) example of this.

Yeah I did a quick check and found this interesting tidbit; note the lack of high level NBA talent (only one All Star):

NCAA Naismith Player of the Year

2010	Evan Turner	Ohio State	G	Junior[7]
2011	Jimmer Fredette	Brigham Young	G	Senior
2012	Anthony Davis	Kentucky	C	Freshman
2013	Trey Burke	Michigan	G	Sophomore
2014	Doug McDermott	Creighton	F	Senior
2015	Frank Kaminsky	Wisconsin	F	Senior
2016	Buddy Hield	Oklahoma	G	Senior
2017	Frank Mason III	Kansas	G	Senior
2018	Jalen Brunson	Villanova	G	Junior
2019	Zion Williamson	Duke	F	Freshman
2020	Obi Toppin[8]	Dayton	F	Sophomore
2021	Luka Garza[9]	Iowa	C	Senior

 

[Lefty2one]

Yeah I did a quick check and found this interesting tidbit; note the lack of high level NBA talent (only one All Star):

NCAA Naismith Player of the Year

2010	Evan Turner	Ohio State	G	Junior[7]
2011	Jimmer Fredette	Brigham Young	G	Senior
2012	Anthony Davis	Kentucky	C	Freshman
2013	Trey Burke	Michigan	G	Sophomore
2014	Doug McDermott	Creighton	F	Senior
2015	Frank Kaminsky	Wisconsin	F	Senior
2016	Buddy Hield	Oklahoma	G	Senior
2017	Frank Mason III	Kansas	G	Senior
2018	Jalen Brunson	Villanova	G	Junior
2019	Zion Williamson	Duke	F	Freshman
2020	Obi Toppin[8]	Dayton	F	Sophomore
2021	Luka Garza[9]	Iowa	C	Senior

Forget all-stars, how many of these dudes were even consistent starters in the NBA? AD, Zion, and, Hield. That's it.

 

[aburks41]

Forget all-stars, how many of these dudes were even consistent starters in the NBA? AD, Zion, and, Hield. That's it.

Yeah but outside of generational guys like AD and Zion, most NPOY's are upperclassmen. And in todays game, most upperclassmen are upperclassmen because they aren't NBA caliber guys

 

[Ratso]

huskies by 16

 

[HeGotGame]

And 2009, which would beat the brakes off this Zags team. This isn’t even the best Zags team they’ve had, I don’t understand how people think that this team is considered the best all time.

Do you look at analytics or just say whatever comes into your head?

Check out Kenpom rankings. This is the highest rated team, not Zags team, TEAM since his rankings started in 2000.

 

[UCDaveD]

2009 UConn beats this Zags team. No answer for Hash.

 

[HeGotGame]

KU and WVU were not really that good..especially compared to past KU teams. Gonzaga is obviously a great team, but quite a few championship teams from the 2000s would run these guys out of the gym. Talent stuck around longer back then

That UConn team played 2 good OOC games, and lost both.

Zags beat WVU, KU, UVA, Iowa by an average of 14 points.

This Zags team has 2 top 10 picks, 3 first rounders and at least 5 guys who will 100% be drafted. All 5 starters finished in their respective positions final 5 players for that positions player of the year.

I understand you are a UConn fan, we all are, but some of these posts are silly.

 

[selles]

That UConn team played 2 good OOC games, and lost both.

I've lost track of the thread, which UConn team are you referring to?

 

[superjohn]

That UConn team played 2 good OOC games, and lost both.

Zags beat WVU, KU, UVA, Iowa by an average of 14 points.

This Zags team has 2 top 10 picks, 3 first rounders and at least 5 guys who will 100% be drafted. All 5 starters finished in their respective positions final 5 players for that positions player of the year.

I understand you are a UConn fan, we all are, but some of these posts are silly.

That UConn team had the 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 12th, 22nd, and 23rd draft picks.

 

[Excalibur]

That UConn team played 2 good OOC games, and lost both.

Zags beat WVU, KU, UVA, Iowa by an average of 14 points.

This Zags team has 2 top 10 picks, 3 first rounders and at least 5 guys who will 100% be drafted. All 5 starters finished in their respective positions final 5 players for that positions player of the year.

I understand you are a UConn fan, we all are, but some of these posts are silly.

The game had more good players in 2004. Case closed.

 

[auror]

This Gonzaga team is on a tier as one of the 4 best offenses of the last 25 years by KenPom, alongside '99 Duke, '18 Nova, and '15 Wisconsin. Gonzaga has the most accurate 2pt% offense of the era, and it's not particularly close: 63.9% from 2. The next highest over the 25 years is 62.6% and only 5 other teams were over 60%.

Symmetrically, '04 UConn had the 4th best 2pt% defense of the past 25 years by KenPom.

Strength on strength. Certainly would be an intriguing matchup. Gonzaga just played the team with the best 2 point defense this season and a future top 3 pick who is an incredible deterrent in the paint and Gonzaga shot 58% from 2 on 45 (!) attempts. Drew Timme was 10-18 against the Mobley brothers.

Naturally junior year Okafor is a better defender than freshman Mobley, but the way Gonzaga's offense is structured with the spacing, attacking in transition, and the off-ball cutting, it would be very difficult to keep them out of the paint. This is not a "Drew Timme backs his man down 1v1 and does a hook shot" paint offense.

This Gonzaga team is the only team ever with 3 finalists for their respective positions for the Hoophall awards... and they actually had 4 (Cousy - Suggs, West - Ayayi, Erving - Kispert, and Malone - Timme). It's only been around 10 years, but it's also the only team ever with 3 players in the KenPom KPOY top 10.

'04 UConn could absolutely win. Wouldn't be favored by Vegas, but I could see some sharp money on the Huskies. I give UConn the edge in depth. Gonzaga with the edge on offense, UConn the edge on defense. Timme v Okafor is obviously the headliner, but Suggs v Gordon is a heckuva fun matchup, 2 respective top 3 picks. Ayayi and Denham Brown are very similar players. Kispert has the edge on Rashad, but again, pretty similar guys. Nembhard v Taliek, battle of former 5* PGs, edge Taliek as a senior. Watson and Boone are also pretty comparable, although with strengths lying in different areas.

One of the more fun hypothetical matchups to consider. But naturally Baylor is itself really, really good and could certainly beat Gonzaga tomorrow.

 

[huskyfan224]

Do you look at analytics or just say whatever comes into your head?

Check out Kenpom rankings. This is the highest rated team, not Zags team, TEAM since his rankings started in 2000.

I look at talent. I could give two s***ts less about KenPom. AJ Price, Jerome Dyson, Stanley Robinson, Jeff Adrien, Hasheem Thabeet with Gavin Edwards and Kemba on the bench would beat them. And it’s funny you mention that, UConn was #2 in those rankings that year and somehow this years Zags team is better than that team defensively? Lol ok

That WCC they play in is so good I forgot to mention, silly me!

 

[aburks41]

I look at talent. I could give two s***ts less about KenPom. AJ Price, Jerome Dyson, Stanley Robinson, Jeff Adrien, Hasheem Thabeet with Gavin Edwards and Kemba on the bench would beat them. And it’s funny you mention that, UConn was #2 in those rankings that year and somehow this years Zags team is better than that team defensively? Lol ok

That WCC conference is so good I forgot to mention, silly me!

Kenpom adjusted measures are compared against the current years average of teams. This year in particular is terrible for analytics because there was so few interconference games to actually get a real reading on how good teams actually are (i.e, every media member slobbing Big 10 just for them to get embarrassed on the national stage). Kenpom this year suggests this Zags team is the best team EVER lol. Anyone with a brain and eyes knows that is not even close to being true

 

[huskyfan224]

Kenpom adjusted measures are compared against the current years average of teams. This year in particular is terrible for analytics because there was so few interconference games to actually get a real reading on how good teams actually are (i.e, every media member slobbing Big 10 just for them to get embarrassed on the national stage). Kenpom this year suggests this Zags team is the best team EVER lol. Anyone with a brain and eyes knows that is not even close to being true

Agreed. I think they are definitely good and Suggs is legit. Kispert is solid, nobody else really wows me, not even Timmy and his lame mustache. Adrien/Thabeet vs him would be comical

 

[Excalibur]

Kenpom adjusted measures are compared against the current years average of teams. This year in particular is terrible for analytics because there was so few interconference games to actually get a real reading on how good teams actually are (i.e, every media member slobbing Big 10 just for them to get embarrassed on the national stage). Kenpom this year suggests this Zags team is the best team EVER lol. Anyone with a brain and eyes knows that is not even close to being true

This. If you rely only on analytics to support your argument and have no understanding of the limitations of those analytics, you deserve all the ridicule that is thrown your way.

 

[HeGotGame]

That UConn team had the 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 12th, 22nd, and 23rd draft picks.

One of those guys was suspended for the year and one never played, other than that cool.

 

[HeGotGame]

The game had more good players in 2004. Case closed.

This is type of astute well thought out arguments you are know for, bravo.

 

[Excalibur]

One of those guys was suspended for the year and one never played, other than that cool.

You think that saying a 12th overall pick couldn’t find minutes on that team supports your argument?