WNBA - Sparks recriminations

-
Joined
Apr 22, 2019
Messages
358
Likes
830
I hear what you’re saying, but sometimes it’s not that simple to just move on. THIS is one of those times. People have been terminated (or asked to resign) from their jobs because of something they said verbally or something they posted on social media.
I couldn't disagree with you more on this! What is it about wanting to see the livelihood of somebody taken away because of something they said or wrote? Cancel culture is out of control in this country! The racial epithet that Toler used, has been used by the same players she was addressing thousands of times before! I'm sorry, I just don't agree with ruining somebodies life/career over something like this.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
7,693
Likes
13,803
Lol you're for sure letting your bias show. She's a lot more valuable than youre giving her credit for. We don't know if her best days are behind her or not, she was injured this year and never really got into the swing of things like she has every other season as a pro. She's one year removed from averaging 18/8/5. Adding Candace could elevate a lot of teams to being a strong title threat for the next few seasons.
I said that. My take is that her and Fisher may no longer be compatible. I also said she call still play. At 34, she's not going to play like she did 10 years ago. Every year, players have to prove they belong on a roster. Every year there are 21/22 year old rookies coming into the league try to take your job.

If YOU think her best days are still in front of her, OK. I don't. I'm not suggesting that your take or opinion is wrong. Parker is a leader on the team. If she and Fisher have issues, that is bad MOJO/chemistry can can spread to the rest of the team. It's up to them to work it out.

I attended about 10 Sparks games this season. I saw things you don't see on TV. At times I was impressed with Parker, other times I was not. Ogwumike and Chelsea Gray (and a few others) hustled and played hard all the time. I can't say the same about Parker. Sometimes she appeared to be fully engaged, other times, not. That is what I saw in person!! Not what I read, or someone commented about. I don't dislike Parker. I have nothing against her. If she's on the team next year, I'll root and cheer for her as much as I do for other players and wish her the best, if not.....:rolleyes:

I could name players that give maximum effort whenever they are on the floor i.e., Nneka, EDD, Diggins-Smith, Alissa Thomas, Jonquel Jones, Courtney Williams, Jazmine Thomas, Napheesa Collier, Chelsea Gray, Maya Moore, etc. In your opinion, does Parker belong in this group?

I'm going to continue to attend games and root for the team whether she's on it or not. I was a Sparks fan BEFORE she joined the team in 2008.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
7,693
Likes
13,803
I couldn't disagree with you more on this! What is it about wanting to see the livelihood of somebody taken away because of something they said or wrote? Cancel culture is out of control in this country! The racial epithet that Toler used, has been used by the same players she was addressing thousands of times before! I'm sorry, I just don't agree with ruining somebodies life/career over something like this.
I understand your disagreement. A poll on the ESPN website showed that 57% of the people that took the poll also agreed she had to go. So it's not just me. If you read through this thread, you'll find several other posters are of the same opinion. More importantly, the owner of the club ALSO agreed and thought she needed to go.

I posted my thoughts. Since I'm not the owner of the Sparks, it had no effect on her retaining her job, or being terminated. I respect your opinion. I'm always interested in reading your posts, but in THIS case, I don't agree with you.

"Several Sparks players told ESPN the speech made them feel uncomfortable and showed "total disrespect" as Toler called them "m-----f-----s" and suggested she'd replace them next year if they got swept by the Sun.

"You can't say that in 2019," one player told ESPN. Past Sparks players interviewed by ESPN said they'd heard Toler use language like that before, so they weren't shocked to hear about the nature of her speech after Game 2. "Penny is competitive," one former player said. "But it's definitely not OK to talk like that."


"Some around the team have expressed discomfort with the current environment. [Editor's note: No current or former players agreed to be identified in on-the-record comments for this story].

"I won't go back there until the culture changes," a former player said. "It's unprofessional."


"However, no one is above criticism or feedback, and I am committed to ensuring my words consistently reflect the Sparks values of a productive and positive working environment moving forward.

I will take this as a learning opportunity and grow from this and make sure that not only myself, but my staff, team and the entire organization is cognizant of the language we use in the locker room." ~ Eric Holoman, Sparks managing partner and governor."

She had to go!! As a executive vice president and general manager, she was held to a higher standard than her players or the other subordinates in the office. She was the face of the organization. She represented the organization at league and corporate meetings/functions. She crossed the line. Sorry, no excuses.

If you're in a position of power and leadership, and you prove to your peers and your superiors time and again that you are not qualified to hold that position (the Peter principle), you should be removed. People are fired everyday for something they say or write if it reflects negatively on the company/organization.

Can a company fire you for what you say on Facebook?
So the short answer is yes, in most circumstances an employer may fire you for what you write and say online and off. Jun 25, 2017


I had a government job before I retired. We had two notebook binders full of rules, regulations, policies and procedures that we were ALL expected to know and conduct (work) ourselves by.

I guarantee you, there where things mandated in black and white that an employee could not do while on duty, and/or while they were "physically"on their property. This included posting things that were in direct opposition to the department's reputation or standing in the community on social media.

I knew what those things were. Since I liked my job and wanted to keep it, I didn't engage in any restricted activity. Simple as that. I didn't feel it was in MY best interest to "test the waters".

Toler is not the first nor will she be the last executive to be terminated for something said or posted on social media. It happens in politics all the time. Remember, the ultimate decision to fire her was not mine. I merely forecasted it, and totally agree after the fact. It had to be done.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
735
Likes
537
Something about the LA chemistry on that team. I feel like after Odyssey left she was happier and playing better. I want them to trade brown badly.

I was a big Sparks fan because of Sims and now I have moved on. However, you do notice how Parker doesn't always give her 100% and if you have watched her the last several seasons you can obviously see it.
 

bballnut90

LV Adherent. Topic Crafter
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
2,962
Likes
5,265
I said that. My take is that her and Fisher may no longer be compatible. I also said she call still play. At 34, she's not going to play like she did 10 years ago. Every year, players have to prove they belong on a roster. Every year there are 22 year old rookies coming into the league try to take your job. If YOU think her best days are still in front of her, OK. I don't. I'm not suggesting that your take or opinion is wrong. Parker is a leader on the team. If she and Fisher have issues, that is bad MOJO/chemistry can can spread to the rest of the team. It's up to them to work it out.

I attended about 10 Sparks games this season. I saw things you don't see on TV. At times I was impressed with Parker, other times I was not. Ogwumike and Chelsea Gray (and a few others) hustled and played hard all the time. I can't say the same about Parker. That is what I saw, not what I read, or someone commented about. I don't dislike Parker. I have nothing against her. If she on the team next year, I'll root for her and wish her the best, if not.....:rolleyes:

I'm going to continue to attend games and root for the team whether she's on it or not. I was a Sparks fan BEFORE she joined the team.
Her trade value is worth far more than a worthless 2nd round draft pick.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
7,693
Likes
13,803
Her trade value is worth far more than a worthless 2nd round draft pick.
You could be right, we’ll see. I suggested that as the position of the league as a whole. I said there are 1-2 teams that might surrender their 1st round pick for her. There are teams that would not because of lack of need and/or questionable effort concerns. I’m interested to see how this chemistry issue works out. Does she and Fisher patch up their differences and reach a mutual understanding, or does she ask for a trade?
 
Last edited:

triaddukefan

Tobacco Road Guest
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
11,106
Likes
14,162
I couldn't disagree with you more on this! What is it about wanting to see the livelihood of somebody taken away because of something they said or wrote? Cancel culture is out of control in this country! The racial epithet that Toler used, has been used by the same players she was addressing thousands of times before! I'm sorry, I just don't agree with ruining somebodies life/career over something like this.
And you know this how?
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,330
Likes
3,636
Not sure what that has to do with the WNBA or the Sparks but okay
You made the "won it in 2016" comment as if that was a factor. My comment was only to point out that no one is picking UConn to win the title this , despite what they did in the past. No big deal.
 

TheFarmFan

Stanford Fan, Huskies Admirer
Joined
Nov 28, 2018
Messages
449
Likes
1,523
You made the "won it in 2016" comment as if that was a factor. My comment was only to point out that no one is picking UConn to win the title this , despite what they did in the past. No big deal.
Ok, but the major difference is that college rosters necessarily have (nearly always) complete turnover in four years; many pro rosters don't, and four of the core pieces of the Sparks' 2016 championship (Parker, Nneka, Beard, and Gray) are still on the team. If Stewwie were still ballin' in Storrs this season, believe me I'd be picking UConn to win championship #12 in 2020...
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,330
Likes
3,636
Ok, but the major difference is that college rosters necessarily have (nearly always) complete turnover in four years; many pro rosters don't, and four of the core pieces of the Sparks' 2016 championship (Parker, Nneka, Beard, and Gray) are still on the team. If Stewwie were still ballin' in Storrs this season, believe me I'd be picking UConn to win championship #12 in 2020...
LOL Obviously you are not a Sun fan. Their lottery picks don't stay very long. The Sparks are in a big market and give their players outside opportunity. The only jobs in Montville are dealing blackjack, and dealers were getting laid off last time I was there.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
735
Likes
537
LOL Obviously you are not a Sun fan. Their lottery picks don't stay very long. The Sparks are in a big market and give their players outside opportunity. The only jobs in Montville are dealing blackjack, and dealers were getting laid off last time I was there.
But we are talking about the Sparks and they have kept several players now for several seasons.
 
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Messages
430
Likes
1,279
I couldn't disagree with you more on this! What is it about wanting to see the livelihood of somebody taken away because of something they said or wrote? Cancel culture is out of control in this country! The racial epithet that Toler used, has been used by the same players she was addressing thousands of times before! I'm sorry, I just don't agree with ruining somebodies life/career over something like this.
So someone can never lose their job (not livelihood) over something they said or wrote? Probably too broad a position. And perhaps, just perhaps, there were additional reasons for Toler to be fired. Starting with the really poor performance of her team in the playoffs.
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
7,624
Likes
12,763
Totally agree that the language Toler used was inexcusable and for no other reason than that, needed to be let go but leaving that aside, I suppose it was an impossible task to try to light a 'spark' under this group of energy deficient 'LA Sparks' (always with the Nneka exception of course)
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
1,212
Likes
1,691
Ok, but the major difference is that college rosters necessarily have (nearly always) complete turnover in four years; many pro rosters don't, and four of the core pieces of the Sparks' 2016 championship (Parker, Nneka, Beard, and Gray) are still on the team. If Stewwie were still ballin' in Storrs this season, believe me I'd be picking UConn to win championship #12 in 2020...
Obviously, 2016 was a down year in the WNBA.
 

TheFarmFan

Stanford Fan, Huskies Admirer
Joined
Nov 28, 2018
Messages
449
Likes
1,523
Obviously, 2016 was a down year in the WNBA.
The obvious part being that any year where UConn alums aren't hoisting a trophy, some sort of asterisk needs to be attached? You'd think after 11 championships folks could learn to take the high road sometimes and acknowledge that every once in a while, someone else is better than the Huskies.

BTW, first team for the All-WNBA that year was Nneka, Charles, Moore, Delle Donne, and Bird. Second team was McCoughtry, Stewwie, Fowles, DT, and Jewell Lloyd. With the possible exception of JL, every other player is destined for the WBB hall of fame. And note that only one of those ten was in a Sparks uniform. Doesn't seem like a down year to me, just seems like a year where Candace Parker won a championship and Huskies alums didn't.
 

Justavisitor

Unpopular Opinions
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
504
Likes
383
I wonder how much trade value CP has at this point. Pretty sure she's going to be 34 next season and she just didnt play well this year. Not sure how much of that was injury related vs if she's slowing down. If this year was a fluke she could still be a 1st Team All-WNBA player next year and really elevate a program like the Sky to become a strong title favorite. Question is, how much are teams willing to trade for her and is it worth the risk?

Also in somewhat similar spots in terms of declining play are Charles, Hayes and McCoughtry. All 3 are on awful teams and had bad years (or missed the full season) which begs the question, are they slowing down or was it just a fluke season?

When Parker was healthy, she still played very well. Fast forward to Game 1 of the semis, she had very little help and put up a great performance. In Game 2, she looked gimpy. In Game 3, she should have been left in the game. The ineffective play came from all those 3 balls that were being launched and Fisher's inability to actually have real plays.

The league is too competitive to think cut harder and cut faster are the offensive solutions.

One other thing is that she entered the season with more weight. It was a purposeful decision on her part to bulk up. After the season started, she didn't like that playing weight...slowed her down too much. She then dropped the weight throughout the season. I'm thinking she learned that lesson and will enter next season at her regular playing weight. The key is to just remain healthy and to have a coach that knows how to draw up plays.

Apparently, the entire team has complained practically all season about the lack of plays. Too often, they've won because of talented players putting the team on their shoulders.
 

bballnut90

LV Adherent. Topic Crafter
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
2,962
Likes
5,265
The obvious part being that any year where UConn alums aren't hoisting a trophy, some sort of asterisk needs to be attached? You'd think after 11 championships folks could learn to take the high road sometimes and acknowledge that every once in a while, someone else is better than the Huskies.

BTW, first team for the All-WNBA that year was Nneka, Charles, Moore, Delle Donne, and Bird. Second team was McCoughtry, Stewwie, Fowles, DT, and Jewell Lloyd. With the possible exception of JL, every other player is destined for the WBB hall of fame. And note that only one of those ten was in a Sparks uniform. Doesn't seem like a down year to me, just seems like a year where Candace Parker won a championship and Huskies alums didn't.
^^100%. 2016 was a very strong year for the W with an epic finals series. If any year overall has been weak in the W, it is this one with all of the injuries and players missing. Doesnt change the fact that the Mystics and Sun both had killer seasons and are playing incredible basketball right now. Whoever wins tomorrow night will not have an asterisk by their title.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
735
Likes
537
I would love to see Parker go, but I don't see her wanting to leave LA in general. I mean the weather there is amazing. Dallas is miserable during the summer.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
1,338
Likes
1,468
When Parker was healthy, she still played very well. Fast forward to Game 1 of the semis, she had very little help and put up a great performance. In Game 2, she looked gimpy. In Game 3, she should have been left in the game. The ineffective play came from all those 3 balls that were being launched and Fisher's inability to actually have real plays.

The league is too competitive to think cut harder and cut faster are the offensive solutions.

One other thing is that she entered the season with more weight. It was a purposeful decision on her part to bulk up. After the season started, she didn't like that playing weight...slowed her down too much. She then dropped the weight throughout the season. I'm thinking she learned that lesson and will enter next season at her regular playing weight. The key is to just remain healthy and to have a coach that knows how to draw up plays.

Apparently, the entire team has complained practically all season about the lack of plays. Too often, they've won because of talented players putting the team on their shoulders.
When are Parker fans going to stop making excuses for her lack of effort? I, and I am sure others, would be less critical of her if she played more than just a few games each month with effort. The fact that she put up good numbers in the first game of the playoff against Conn proves my point. She did that because she gave a lot of effort. If she could do it in that one game why not in more. For years she was known for never having good back to back games with one day's rest. That is another key point. She either plays games where she can excel or she totally mails it in. On those back to back games with little rest, players are tired and have to suck it up. That is something she refuses to do. It seems that every time she does not give full effort her fans chack it up to some sort of injury. Her first few games back from injury both this season and last she played really well. It was after those first games her effort and production tailed of. Just like her effort and production tailed off in this last series. She plays when she feels like it regardless of team need. This is what Fisher finally learned during this season and why he just benched her. He knew that on days she decides not to play the odds of her turning it up are slim and none.

Getting benched is a message that should have been sent to her long ago. Perhaps this will wake her up no matter where she plays next season. She needs to learn that she is no longer all that or irreplaceable to the point where she can play when she feels like it. Anyone who has followed the team, realizes that, except for the fact that they were also short-handed because other players were also out, they played better without her.
 

bballnut90

LV Adherent. Topic Crafter
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
2,962
Likes
5,265
2016 was a strong year, at least at the top. The L.A. v. Minnesota series was very close. Unfortunately, the L.A. win was aided by a historically bad call.
There was a historically bad missed 8 second violation the game prior that sealed a win for Minnesota. LA deserved their title in 2016.
 
Top