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WNBA -- 2023 Season

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With Haley Jones specifically anyone who watched her college career closely was skeptical of how she’d do in the WNBA. Her shooting regressed each year and was especially bad her senior year. That isn’t a trajectory that bodes well for success in the WNBA but we’ll see. I could see her carving out a nice role player career if she finally improves that shot.
 
Clouden's future potential is a good question. I do recall reading that she was sidelined during the European pro season due to injuries, which could be part of the issue. Believe she spent time back in East Lansing with the Spartans while recuperating.

I'm also going to assume that she's playing catch up as she joined the team days before the season started. With LA's roster issues this past week, she got thrown into the fire sooner than I believe Miller wanted her to be, but it doesn't explain her decision making. I believe this season will be an important one for her to show some progress.
Thanks for talking me off the ledge. I guess it makes me more impressed with 5'8" or shorter guards that consistently finish in traffic such as Kelsey Plum and Ta'Niya Latson at the collegiate level.
 
I was also wondering about how people have declared rookies Berger & H Jones and 2nd yr player Hull, busts already this early in the year, given cancontent's excellent points regarding the quick turnaround relative to the NBA. I'm not saying for sure that any of them will become stars or even quality rotation players, but I think all 3 deserve more time.

Conversely (perhaps hypocritically), one player that I am about to call a bust is one that I really liked in college, Nia Clouden. I mentioned how she looked overmatched last year with CT and watching her start last game for LA, she has shown no way to avoid rim-protectors on her drives to the bucket (Canada avoids them, but alters her shot so severely it becomes a low % "layup"), makes bad decisions (eg., passes up catch-and-shoot open 3s to drive in a few feet to take a contested long 2 on the move), and has trouble finding lanes to distribute to her teammates. I correctly immediately predicted that Miller would acquire her once she was waived by the Sun. Apparently he sees something in her.

Lastly, it got me thinking as to what barometers (or is it strictly case-by-case, similar to oldhuskie's points about H Jones?) can be used when looking retrospectively at players who struggled early and became stars. 2 great examples are Rutgers alums Laney & Copper. Look at their production, efficiency, PT, etc. for the 1st 4 years of their careers. So, bbsamjj (resident Rutgers expert) or anyone else, please enlighten me.

Laney I think of as someone who obviously improved, but needed to find the right fit to thrive. That happened in Atlanta in the Wubble season, and has continued in NY. There are a lot of players who fit this mold, including Mabrey going from LA to Dallas, early returns on Alanna Smith in Chicago and Dangerfield in Dallas. Some players need to be on the right team to even get a shot at playing. Fit matters a ton.

Copper is more of a story of someone who steadily improved before having a breakout. There are a lot of examples of players like--the first that come to mind are former #1 picks Jackie Young and Kelsey Plum.

The point is--VERY few rookies take the league by storm in year 1, not to mention on day 1. Through 3 games, Boston is doing about as well as you can expect of anyone [minus the MVP season Parker had as a rookie). But there are LOADS of players who get better and better the longer their careers go.
 
I watched portions of the Chicago-Dallas game last night and saw Alanna Smith play -- to my eyes -- the best game of her WNBA career: 14 points and 12 rebounds. She might've had more if a few three-pt. attempts didn't rim out. She was initially drafted by the Mercury and was hit by injuries and Sandy Brondello not giving her much floor time. Sometimes a player need to find the right situation with a tingel of good timing. Chicago has injuries to the front court, so this may be that chance.

Plus, there's a lot of new players -- Marina Mabrey & Courtney Williams -- who are more than willing to dish off the rock if the player hits the shot.
It's only 4 games, but the pieces in Chicago seem to be coming together thus far.

They are winning with defense--they have the second best defensive rating in the league (after Vegas).

Elizabeth Williams seems reinvigorated. Alanna Smith and Dana Evans seem poised for career years. Coach Wade seems very talented at finding forgotten players and giving them a chance (see Rebekah Gardner). He seems to have found two more in that vein with Morgan Betsch and Sika Kone. Copper and Mabrey are doing Copper and Mabrey things.

Meanwhile, Courtney Williams seems to be playing at her highest levels. 10.5ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.3apg (rebounds and assists would be career highs).
 
It's only 4 games, but the pieces in Chicago seem to be coming together thus far.

They are winning with defense--they have the second best defensive rating in the league (after Vegas).

Elizabeth Williams seems reinvigorated. Alanna Smith and Dana Evans seem poised for career years. Coach Wade seems very talented at finding forgotten players and giving them a chance (see Rebekah Gardner). He seems to have found two more in that vein with Morgan Betsch and Sika Kone. Copper and Mabrey are doing Copper and Mabrey things.

Meanwhile, Courtney Williams seems to be playing at her highest levels. 10.5ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.3apg (rebounds and assists would be career highs).
Yeah, right. In my opinion, they lost 5 of their top 6 and 6 of their top 8 players from last year's team. They're actually 3-1, but clearly ranked #5 in my power rankings. None of the other 7 teams (6 through12) are close to their backcourt trio (whether you play 3 guards or a wing at 3); Evans is showing signs of improvement and A Smith & E Williams look better than expected.
Obviously no argument here. Their frontcourt went from who is going to fill the shoes of Parker, Stevens, Meesseman/Dolson over the last couple years to who will sit once Bertsch and Izzy Harrison return from injuries. An interesting thing that I noticed about Coach Wade is that he let Parker & Sloot talk strategy during timeouts throughout their championship run 2 years ago and yesterday it was the same with Courtney & KFC in the huddle.
 
Marina Mabrey seems to like playing for Chicago Sky.
There are very few guards in offense mode that cut it as close to the screener or pick as Marina Mabrey, particularly when she's coming around for a handoff. There is not enough room for a cat, let alone a player to go over the top. And if that screen happens to be at the top of the key, you know she's going into the pull-up jumper, which - next to the step-back three -- is her most lethal shot. By the time the defense decides on a strategy, she'll hone in on that: look for the roll(er) or the player where the help is coming from. She hit Alanna Smith in the 4th quarter with just such a move and pass.
 
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Way too early WNBA stats
50-40-90 club (50%fg, 40% 3pt shots, 90% FT)

Chelsea Gray/LVA-- 55%-- 53.8%-- 100%
Dojkic /SEA -- 66.7% --50%--100%
Karlie Samuelson/LAS--55.6%--66.7%--100%
Milic/MIN--50%--50%--100%
Nneka Ogwumike/LAS--61.9%--50%--100%
S.Sabally/DAL--51.2%--41.5%--94%

These stats will flow all season with a string of good games, and one bad game could drop you out very fast. But at the end of the season the ones who make these numbers are vary consistent at what they do.

By the way in the 2022 season there was no player who made this level, that played at least 20 games in the season.
Steph Dolson was the closest at 49.3%fg, 39.4% 3ptfg, and 90.5% FT
 
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Haley Jones is really struggling, and Hull in her 2nd year having a bad start too. Crazy how Stanford players seem to not have much Wnba success aside the Owugmeke sisters.
Cough... Candice Wiggins had a pretty successful run in the WNBA. I can think of a few more Stanford players who had successful trips in the WNBA; Jamila Wideman, Vanessa Nygaard, Erica Mcall, just to name a few. With Haley, like a lot of rookies, it is just a matter of finding your groove, being confident, and giving your max effort out there, which Haley is doing. She will settle in and figure things out. Same with Hull. You are correct, Hull did struggle in a game this year. However, there is plently of games left and she will adjust to her role with the team.
 
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I think Wiggins had other issues if memory serves me correctly.

Didn’t Hull have a fantastic AU season and win an award to go with it or am i wrong?? I think she also had crazy 3pt shot numbers as well.
It’s too soon to tell about Hull, but she’s carried the reputation of a shooter. She’s shot 29/120 for her wnba career, 8/51 for 3. Those numbers will need to improve in this second season if she is to stick in the league.

I’m in favor of giving young players a chance, just look at players like Plum, Sabally, and Young who blossomed after a few years experience. That evolution could trickle down to role players like Hull in the league.

Not aligned with Alexis Morris about vets, but do hope expansion comes to provide more opportunities for rookies and young players.
 
It’s too soon to tell about Hull, but she’s carried the reputation of a shooter. She’s shot 29/120 for her wnba career, 8/51 for 3. Those numbers will need to improve in this second season if she is to stick in the league.

I’m in favor of giving young players a chance, just look at players like Plum, Sabally, and Young who blossomed after a few years experience. That evolution could trickle down to role players like Hull in the league.

Not aligned with Alexis Morris about vets, but do hope expansion comes to provide more opportunities for rookies and young players.
I still think that Laney & Copper are much better examples (especially compared to Sabally). I know that ppg is only one stat, but I don't want to further convolute (and none of the below are point guards or posts with huge apg, rpg, or bpg):

Plum's 1st 4 yrs: 8.5, 9.5, 8.6, & 14.8;
Young: 6.6, 11.0, 12.2, 15.9;
Sabally (only 3 prior to this yr): 13.9, 11.9, 11.3;

Laney: 2.9, 1.0, 2.7, 5.6;
Copper: 6.2, 6.7, 7.1, 6.7 (relatively no upward arc)

Laney (yrs 5 through 7): 17.2, 16.8, 11.2 (injured)

Copper (yrs 5 through 7): 14.9, 14.4, 15.7

Young & Plum were #1 overall picks & Sabally was #2, so they had a longer leash as well.

So, I guess I'm doing a horrible job of asking my question and tying it in to the current batch of newbies that aren't setting the world on fire out of the gate. I don't think there was ever any real consideration of waiving Plum, Young, or Sabally; but how did the 2 Scarlet Knights stay in the WNBA (Laney actually was 5 yrs in averaging no higher than 5.6 ppg due to missing a full year -- yes, she exploded in the wubble, but how did she survive to get there?) and how should that apply to current 1st, 2nd, 3rd year players?
 
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I believe Plums averages were pulled down considerable by her horrible first year production. I rewatched her first year games out of curiosity and was surprised what I found. It appeared that the players on every opposing team focused on making sure she was stopped. They constantly doubled or often even tripled her. I believe they were impelled by the over the top publicity she was getting before she even played a single game. Had she been treated like a normal rookie, or even a regular first round pick she would not have struggled so much. Its hard enough for any rookie, but the defensive attention she recieved her first season was unreal.
 
I believe Plums averages were pulled down considerable by her horrible first year production. I rewatched her first year games out of curiosity and was surprised what I found. It appeared that the players on every opposing team focused on making sure she was stopped. They constantly doubled or often even tripled her. I believe they were impelled by the over the top publicity she was getting before she even played a single game. Had she been treated like a normal rookie, or even a regular first round pick she would not have struggled so much. Its hard enough for any rookie, but the defensive attention she recieved her first season was unreal.
Good points. Plus, she was dealing with ankle & leg injuries in that rookie season, which cut into her playing time. Also, she was putting a lot of pressure on herself to live up to her college status and being a #1 pick. After that first part of the season, she found her groove and wasn't thinking as much, she just played and it showed. Her confidence was there again. That is how I feel about some of the rookies this year, like the Haley Jones of the world. They just have to play. Don't think about a missed shot, bad pass, missed rebound, blah, blah, blah. Just play. Know that they have the skills and confidence to play at this level. And if they are only getting 5-15 minutes a game, make the most of those minutes.
 
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I still think that Laney & Copper are much better examples (especially compared to Sabally). I know that ppg is only one stat, but I don't want to further convolute (and none of the below are point guards or posts with huge apg, rpg, or bpg):

Plum's 1st 4 yrs: 8.5, 9.5, 8.6, & 14.8;
Young: 6.6, 11.0, 12.2, 15.9;
Sabally (only 3 prior to this yr): 13.9, 11.9, 11.3;

Laney: 2.9, 1.0, 2.7, 5.6;
Copper: 6.2, 6.7, 7.1, 6.7 (relatively no upward arc)

Laney (yrs 5 through 7): 17.2, 16.8, 11.2 (injured)

Copper (yrs 5 through 7): 14.9, 14.4, 15.7

Young & Plum were #1 overall picks & Sabally was #2, so they had a longer leash as well.

So, I guess I'm doing a horrible job of asking my question and tying it in to the current batch of newbies that aren't setting the world on fire out of the gate. I don't think there was ever any real consideration of waiving Plum, Young, or Sabally; but how did the 2 Scarlet Knights stay in the WNBA (Laney actually was 5 yrs in averaging no higher than 5.6 ppg due to missing a full year -- yes, she exploded in the wubble, but how did she survive to get there?) and how should that apply to current 1st, 2nd, 3rd year players?
Laney was in fact waived by Indiana right before the Wubble season, before Atlanta and Coach Nikki Collen picked her up to help with perimeter defense because Tiffany Hayes wasn't going to FL. They thought they were getting a defensive stopper, but Collen saw Laney in practice keep hitting shots, and basically gave her the green light to keep taking them until she missed.

It's a very unique story: Rewriting her own scouting report, Betnijah Laney takes the WNBA by surprise
 
Yeah, right. In my opinion, they lost 5 of their top 6 and 6 of their top 8 players from last year's team. They're actually 3-1, but clearly ranked #5 in my power rankings. None of the other 7 teams (6 through12) are close to their backcourt trio (whether you play 3 guards or a wing at 3); Evans is showing signs of improvement and A Smith & E Williams look better than expected.

After watching Koné, I am in disbelief that she was cut. No excuses -- number's game or otherwise. I know quite a few people have mentioned her on these boards for a couple years and baggerbob, JellyBean, and I lamented the decision at the time. She might be turnover prone, foul prone, have crafty offensive players take advantage of her defensive aggressiveness this year, but it would take 2 minutes of watching her for anybody that knows hoops to clearly see that she definitely has "it." She is 20 now and I'd be surprised if she's not an all-star by 2025. How did she last until the 29th pick?

I saw Kone in international play and thought she was really, really good.
 
Way too early WNBA stats
50-40-90 club (50%fg, 40% 3pt shots, 90% FT)

Chelsea Gray/LVA-- 55%-- 53.8%-- 100%
Dojkic /SEA -- 66.7% --50%--100%
Karlie Samuelson/LAS--55.6%--66.7%--100%
Milic/MIN--50%--50%--100%
Nneka Ogwumike/LAS--61.9%--50%--100%
S.Sabally/DAL--51.2%--41.5%--94%

These stats will flow all season with a string of good games, and one bad game could drop you out very fast. But at the end of the season the ones who make these numbers are vary consistent at what they do.

By the way in the 2022 season there was no player who made this level, that played at least 20 games in the season.
Steph Dolson was the closest at 49.3%fg, 39.4% 3ptfg, and 90.5% FT

Jackie Young lags in FT %, but her overall line is a crazy 62/57/73.
 
Laney was in fact waived by Indiana right before the Wubble season, before Atlanta and Coach Nikki Collen picked her up to help with perimeter defense because Tiffany Hayes wasn't going to FL. They thought they were getting a defensive stopper, but Collen saw Laney in practice keep hitting shots, and basically gave her the green light to keep taking them until she missed.

It's a very unique story: Rewriting her own scouting report, Betnijah Laney takes the WNBA by surprise
That's the kind of interesting story for which I was looking. Thanks.

Another player who had a great relationship with Collen and thrived under her was Chennedy Carter ... her next 4 coaches over the following 2 years, not so much. She averaged 17.4 & 14.2 ppg her 1st 2 years on decent shooting for a guard, finishing 2nd in ROY voting. So sometimes a great rookie campaign (which is hard to accomplish) doesn't ensure a great career -- of course it doesn't help if you aren't cheering for your team, feud with the saintly Courtney Williams, and complain about PT at half-time for a struggling squad.

On the other hand, your statement that Copper steadily improved until her breakout (5th year) isn't supported by stats whatsoever. Her ppg were stagnant, her FG% was better her 1st 2 years than the next 2 and her turnovers were higher in years 3 & 4 relative to 1 & 2. Kah had a year 5 (somewhat similar to Laney's 5th & Bri Jones's 4th year) that more than doubled her best year of her 1st 4 seasons in ppg, spg, apg, and almost double in rpg, while shooting 10% higher from the field than the previous 2 seasons. Any similar stories for her impetus for year 5? Was she teetering on the edge as well?
 
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I might be off base, but I think part of Plum's early struggles in the league is that Laimbeer changed her role on the team every single year. Kinda hard to settle into a career when that happens. The year she won 6th player of the year she finally seemed to find her groove, but the next season Hammon really set her free.
 
That's the kind of interesting story for which I was looking. Thanks.

Another player who had a great relationship with Collen and thrived under her was Chennedy Carter ... her next 4 coaches over the following 2 years, not so much. She averaged 17.4 & 14.2 ppg her 1st 2 years on decent shooting for a guard, finishing 2nd in ROY voting. So sometimes a great rookie campaign (which is hard to accomplish) doesn't ensure a great career -- of course it doesn't help if you aren't cheering for your team, feud with the saintly Courtney Williams, and complain about PT at half-time for a struggling squad.

On the other hand, your statement that Copper steadily improved until her breakout (5th year) isn't supported by stats whatsoever. Her ppg were stagnant, her FG% was better her 1st 2 years than the next 2 and her turnovers were higher in years 3 & 4 relative to 1 & 2. Kah had a year 5 (somewhat similar to Laney's 5th & Bri Jones's 4th year) that more than doubled her best year of her 1st 4 seasons in ppg, spg, apg, and almost double in rpg, while shooting 10% higher from the field than the previous 2 seasons. Any similar stories for her impetus for year 5? Was she teetering on the edge as well?

What I believe happened for Copper is that with the Deshields injuries in 2020, she finally got a chance to start and play significant minutes. She went from averaging around 16mpg to 31mpg in one season. And she stepped up to the challenge.
 
Like many, I would welcome expanded rosters and teams, but understand that the current CBA impacts the former and there are many factors that need to be investigated, impacting the latter.

One expansion that I have strongly advocated is minutes per game. Men's college basketball has been 40 min. & the NBA 48 for as long as I can remember, so why not do the same for women's hoops? It would lead to a need for expanded rosters, provide more playing time for starters an/or bench players resulting in better statistics and more time for players to improve and be fairly evaluated, and produce higher scores, which I believe would be more appealing psychologically to potential viewers. The media timeouts could remain 1 per quarter, so the total time wouldn't increase too much.
 
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I wonder if McCowan's injury is worse than originally anticipated or if they just want to have a backup post. Rest-of-Season is often a misnomer as Burrell (& others previously) was waived 2 days after signing hers.
 


I wonder if McCowan's injury is worse than originally anticipated or if they just want to have a backup post. Rest-of-Season is often a misnomer as Burrell (& others previously) was waived 2 days after signing hers.


Had the same thought. If so, that's too bad as I thought McCowan came into her own last season and was hoping to see what she'd do this year.
 
Had the same thought. If so, that's too bad as I thought McCowan came into her own last season and was hoping to see what she'd do this year.
100%. She was misused in Indy (shocking) and was becoming a difference maker for Dallas. Her moves down low are so efficient and it would have been (will be?) fun to see her, DeShields, Ogunbowale, Howard, & Sabally play together.
 
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100%. She was misused in Indy (shocking) and was becoming a difference maker for Dallas. Her moves down low are so efficient and it would have been (will be?) fun to see her, DeShields, Ogunbowale, Howard, & Sabally play together.
I'd go with "will be" as it puts more positive energy out there to make it happen.

Meditation Namaste GIF by Miguel
 
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