WNBA -- 2023 Season

[hoopsnloops32]

Eh, I disagree. I see Queen get more of her touches off of rebounds and I do think Nalyssa looks more for Queen than Boston. But the guards on this year's squad can't make good post entry passes. Honestly a rookie Berger has done a better job than the vets in her limited minutes with looking for the bigs. But the guards on this team + Smith often rather attempt tough contested shots rather than look for an open player or one that has the mismatch. Some of it is chemistry issues, but I do believe selfish play is a factor as well along with no pass first point guards.

Yes no arguments there the guards aren’t good. Berger picks up her dribble between the three point line and halfcourt half the time so not sure she’s the answer.

To your point the roster construction is just garbage with a mix of traditional post players and shoot first back court it’s just not a winning combination. Hopefully NaLyssa Smith can use the next two years to build a resume to sign a big contract with a much more solid franchise because she really could be a star in this league. I’m pretty sure Fever management couldn’t construct a roster to compete if they were given the next 5 #1 picks.

 

[Tangential]

Possible. But knowing our beloved Minnesota Lynx, the one game you would think they would get blown out, they would play well and get a win. I am still not counting them tonight. I say Minnesota shocks the world and knock off one of the Super Teams.

If ever they are going to win in LV, this is as good an opportunity vs. a healthy Aces team as they will have. There might be a post ring game hangover. Sometimes when the Aces play a bad team, they are careless with the ball and have some defensive lapses (got blown out at home vs Atlanta & @ MN last year with their entire core 6 healthy). With that being said, I think that the talent disparity will be too large to overcome.

 

[JellyBean]

Marina Mabrey seems to like playing for Chicago Sky.

 

[Tangential]

Marina Mabrey seems to like playing for Chicago Sky.

And against Dallas.

Also, what were the Liberty thinking waiving Koné?!? A little rough around the edges for her 1st career game as a 20 year old. I'll go on the record for claiming that her career will dwarf Willoughby's and many other present and future WNBA'ers.

 

[JellyBean]

And against Dallas.

Also, what were the Liberty thinking waiving Koné?!? A little rough around the edges for her 1st career game as a 20 year old. I'll go on the record for claiming that her career will dwarf Willoughby's and many other present and future WNBA'ers.

Oh yeah. Mabrey having a game! Yeah, I was shocked that New York waived Kone. I am sure it became a numbers game in terms of minutes and the Liberty management figured that it would be best to waive Kone. It is working out well for her in Chicago.

 

[socal613ws]

Haley Jones is really struggling, and Hull in her 2nd year having a bad start too. Crazy how Stanford players seem to not have much Wnba success aside the Owugmeke sisters.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Who predicted the new look Sky, missing almost everybody of significance from recently other than Copper, would start 3-0?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Haley Jones is really struggling, and Hull in her 2nd year having a bad start too. Crazy how Stanford players seem to not have much Wnba success aside the Owugmeke sisters.

It's really strange, isn't it? I can't believe Wiggins didn't do more in the W.

 

[Tangential]

Who predicted the new look Sky, missing almost everybody of significance from recently other than Copper, would start 3-0?

Yeah, right. In my opinion, they lost 5 of their top 6 and 6 of their top 8 players from last year's team. They're actually 3-1, but clearly ranked #5 in my power rankings. None of the other 7 teams (6 through12) are close to their backcourt trio (whether you play 3 guards or a wing at 3); Evans is showing signs of improvement and A Smith & E Williams look better than expected.

After watching Koné, I am in disbelief that she was cut. No excuses -- number's game or otherwise. I know quite a few people have mentioned her on these boards for a couple years and baggerbob, JellyBean, and I lamented the decision at the time. She might be turnover prone, foul prone, have crafty offensive players take advantage of her defensive aggressiveness this year, but it would take 2 minutes of watching her for anybody that knows hoops to clearly see that she definitely has "it." She is 20 now and I'd be surprised if she's not an all-star by 2025. How did she last until the 29th pick?

 

[cancontent]

Yeah, right. In my opinion, they lost 5 of their top 6 and 6 of their top 8 players from last year's team. They're actually 3-1, but clearly ranked #5 in my power rankings. None of the other 7 teams (6 through12) are close to their backcourt trio (whether you play 3 guards or a wing at 3); Evans is showing signs of improvement and A Smith & E Williams look better than expected.

After watching Koné, I am in disbelief that she was cut. No excuses -- number's game or otherwise. I know quite a few people have mentioned her on these boards for a couple years and baggerbob, JellyBean, and I lamented the decision at the time. She might be turnover prone, foul prone, have crafty offensive players take advantage of her defensive aggressiveness this year, but it would take 2 minutes of watching her for anybody that knows hoops to clearly see that she definitely has "it." She is 20 now and I'd be surprised if she's not an all-star by 2025. How did she last until the 29th pick?

Regarding draft position, I believe it's due to her suffering an ACL injury the year she was drafted. Plus with her playing overseas and still a teenager, it's possible that teams still saw her as a project and hedged their bets.

 

[jdote33]

Haley Jones is really struggling, and Hull in her 2nd year having a bad start too. Crazy how Stanford players seem to not have much Wnba success aside the Owugmeke sisters.

shout out Nicole Powell. Honestly, Jones struggled a lot her last two years at Stanford, so I'm not surprised she's off to a slow start. She does rebound well, and I like that she's playing the point full time. Hull is an interesting use case as well. She played lights out in the tournament and I like some of her measurable. 6'1, long arms, and can shoot it. She just may take some time, but even now she's a good defender and can do some of the little things. I do think at some point she needs to make shots. Even as good as she played during the tourney run she only ended up averaging like 12 points a game her senior year.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Haley Jones is really struggling, and Hull in her 2nd year having a bad start too. Crazy how Stanford players seem to not have much Wnba success aside the Owugmeke sisters.

I’ve been saying Haley Jones is overrate for years. Offensively she doesn’t have the handle to play point well or the shooting to play SG and lacks the speed and athleticism to be a SF. She’ll need a lot of off-season development to be a real factor in any team. The perplexing thing is now she regressed offensively at Stamford. Didn’t bode well for her future as a Pro if she didn’t put the time in in college.

 

[HuskyFan1125]

It's really strange, isn't it? I can't believe Wiggins didn't do more in the W.

I think Wiggins had other issues if memory serves me correctly.

Didn’t Hull have a fantastic AU season and win an award to go with it or am i wrong?? I think she also had crazy 3pt shot numbers as well.

 

[cancontent]

We're barely into the season and it's interesting how certain players are being considered busts and overrated. It's not only here but in the media.

Sure there are rookies struggling, but who has really stood out after 3 or 4 games? Boston is slowly but surely contributing and making solid plays. Jones may not be doing great just yet, but Atlanta also is struggling to figure out who they are as a team as a whole. Remember how Naz Hillmon started last season on the bench with a lot of DNPs? She ended being a regular part of the rotation by the end of the season and is a major part of it this season.

The rookies are jumping into professional play within weeks of finishing their college careers. They don't have the same luxury as NBA rookies who get a few months to get better acclimated with Summer League play and a training camp that is longer than what's provided in the WNBA.

Also, to see Hull get attacked by a person in the media who obviously has a bias for Mikesell is gross. She played better later towards the end of last season. Her defensive skills are needed and as the AU Defensive player for the season, she brings that to the table. Who is to say whether Mikesell would have made those 3 pointers herself yesterday? Is the Stanford bias that strong or is it how I'm reading these comments?

 

[oldhusky]

The way I see it Jones will never be a star in the W, but her non scoring skills will mean she should have a long WNBA career as more of a versatile role player off the bench. She frequently was a principle ball handler at Stanford, but expecting her to play the point effectively as a rookie in the W is not realistic. Maybe in time she could be a part-time solution at the point, but for now she is in way over her head, at least while playing the point.

At Stanford she generally played with composure and was under control. As a rookie out of position against much tougher competition she now seems uncertain, rushed and nervous at times. It will get better but i don't think the point is where she will spend most of her career.

 

[cancontent]

The way I see it Jones will never be a star in the W, but her non scoring skills will mean she should have a long WNBA career as more of a versatile role player off the bench. She frequently was a principle ball handler at Stanford, but expecting her to play the point effectively as a rookie in the W is not realistic. Maybe in time she could be a part-time solution at the point, but for now she is in way over her head, at least while playing the point.

At Stanford she generally played with composure and was under control. As a rookie out of position against much tougher competition she now seems uncertain, rushed and nervous at times. It will get better but i don't think the point is where she will spend most of her career.

And that's totally fair. My issue is that flat out predictions are being made after a few games of play. Let the next couple seasons play out to see what transpires.

 

[Tangential]

We're barely into the season and it's interesting how certain players are being considered busts and overrated. It's not only here but in the media.

Sure there are rookies struggling, but who has really stood out after 3 or 4 games? Boston is slowly but surely contributing and making solid plays. Jones may not be doing great just yet, but Atlanta also is struggling to figure out who they are as a team as a whole. Remember how Naz Hillmon started last season on the bench with a lot of DNPs? She ended being a regular part of the rotation by the end of the season and is a major part of it this season.

The rookies are jumping into professional play within weeks of finishing their college careers. They don't have the same luxury as NBA rookies who get a few months to get better acclimated with Summer League play and a training camp that is longer than what's provided in the WNBA.

Also, to see Hull get attacked by a person in the media who obviously has a bias for Mikesell is gross. She played better later towards the end of last season. Her defensive skills are needed and as the AU Defensive player for the season, she brings that to the table. Who is to say whether Mikesell would have made those 3 pointers herself yesterday? Is the Stanford bias that strong or is it how I'm reading these comments?

I was also wondering about how people have declared rookies Berger & H Jones and 2nd yr player Hull, busts already this early in the year, given cancontent's excellent points regarding the quick turnaround relative to the NBA. I'm not saying for sure that any of them will become stars or even quality rotation players, but I think all 3 deserve more time.

Conversely (perhaps hypocritically), one player that I am about to call a bust is one that I really liked in college, Nia Clouden. I mentioned how she looked overmatched last year with CT and watching her start last game for LA, she has shown no way to avoid rim-protectors on her drives to the bucket (Canada avoids them, but alters her shot so severely it becomes a low % "layup"), makes bad decisions (eg., passes up catch-and-shoot open 3s to drive in a few feet to take a contested long 2 on the move), and has trouble finding lanes to distribute to her teammates. I correctly immediately predicted that Miller would acquire her once she was waived by the Sun. Apparently he sees something in her.

Lastly, it got me thinking as to what barometers (or is it strictly case-by-case, similar to oldhuskie's points about H Jones?) can be used when looking retrospectively at players who struggled early and became stars. 2 great examples are Rutgers alums Laney & Copper. Look at their production, efficiency, PT, etc. for the 1st 4 years of their careers. So, bbsamjj (resident Rutgers expert) or anyone else, please enlighten me.

 

[cancontent]

I was also wondering about how people have declared rookies Berger & H Jones and 2nd yr player Hull, busts already this early in the year, given cancontent's excellent points regarding the quick turnaround relative to the NBA. I'm not saying for sure that any of them will become stars or even quality rotation players, but I think all 3 deserve more time.

Conversely (perhaps hypocritically), one player that I am about to call a bust is one that I really liked in college, Nia Clouden. I mentioned how she looked overmatched last year with CT and watching her start last game for LA, she has shown no way to avoid rim-protectors on her drives to the bucket (Canada avoids them, but alters her shot so severely it becomes a low % "layup"), makes bad decisions (eg., passes up catch-and-shoot open 3s to drive in a few feet to take a contested long 2 on the move), and has trouble finding lanes to distribute to her teammates. I correctly immediately predicted that Miller would acquire her once she was waived by the Sun. Apparently he sees something in her.

Lastly, it got me thinking as to what barometers (or is it strictly case-by-case, similar to oldhuskie's points about H Jones?) can be used when looking retrospectively at players who struggled early and became stars. 2 great examples are Rutgers alums Laney & Copper. Look at their production, efficiency, PT, etc. for the 1st 4 years of their careers. So, bbsamjj (resident Rutgers expert) or anyone else, please enlighten me.

Clouden's future potential is a good question. I do recall reading that she was sidelined during the European pro season due to injuries, which could be part of the issue. Believe she spent time back in East Lansing with the Spartans while recuperating.

I'm also going to assume that she's playing catch up as she joined the team days before the season started. With LA's roster issues this past week, she got thrown into the fire sooner than I believe Miller wanted her to be, but it doesn't explain her decision making. I believe this season will be an important one for her to show some progress.

 

[Dillon77]

And that's totally fair. My issue is that flat out predictions are being made after a few games of play. Let the next couple seasons play out to see what transpires.

I watched portions of the Chicago-Dallas game last night and saw Alanna Smith play -- to my eyes -- the best game of her WNBA career: 14 points and 12 rebounds. She might've had more if a few three-pt. attempts didn't rim out. She was initially drafted by the Mercury and was hit by injuries and Sandy Brondello not giving her much floor time. Sometimes a player needs to find the right situation with a tinge of good timing. Chicago has injuries to the front court, so this may be that chance.

Plus, there's a lot of new players -- Marina Mabrey & Courtney Williams -- who are more than willing to dish off the rock if the player hits the shot.

 

[baggerbob]

And against Dallas.

Also, what were the Liberty thinking waiving Koné?!? A little rough around the edges for her 1st career game as a 20 year old. I'll go on the record for claiming that her career will dwarf Willoughby's and many other present and future WNBA'ers.

That was a huge mistake, should have found a way to trade Willoughby in the off season for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.
Paying her 79,000 for this season is a waste of money.
Kone has talent, and a good shooting touch. She was 4-4 from free throw line, and 8-8 in an exhibition game.
I said before Willoughby shouldn't be on the Liberty, doesn't have the talent to play in the league.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

With Haley Jones specifically anyone who watched her college career closely was skeptical of how she’d do in the WNBA. Her shooting regressed each year and was especially bad her senior year. That isn’t a trajectory that bodes well for success in the WNBA but we’ll see. I could see her carving out a nice role player career if she finally improves that shot.

 

[Tangential]

Clouden's future potential is a good question. I do recall reading that she was sidelined during the European pro season due to injuries, which could be part of the issue. Believe she spent time back in East Lansing with the Spartans while recuperating.

I'm also going to assume that she's playing catch up as she joined the team days before the season started. With LA's roster issues this past week, she got thrown into the fire sooner than I believe Miller wanted her to be, but it doesn't explain her decision making. I believe this season will be an important one for her to show some progress.

Thanks for talking me off the ledge. I guess it makes me more impressed with 5'8" or shorter guards that consistently finish in traffic such as Kelsey Plum and Ta'Niya Latson at the collegiate level.

 

[bbsamjj]

I was also wondering about how people have declared rookies Berger & H Jones and 2nd yr player Hull, busts already this early in the year, given cancontent's excellent points regarding the quick turnaround relative to the NBA. I'm not saying for sure that any of them will become stars or even quality rotation players, but I think all 3 deserve more time.

Conversely (perhaps hypocritically), one player that I am about to call a bust is one that I really liked in college, Nia Clouden. I mentioned how she looked overmatched last year with CT and watching her start last game for LA, she has shown no way to avoid rim-protectors on her drives to the bucket (Canada avoids them, but alters her shot so severely it becomes a low % "layup"), makes bad decisions (eg., passes up catch-and-shoot open 3s to drive in a few feet to take a contested long 2 on the move), and has trouble finding lanes to distribute to her teammates. I correctly immediately predicted that Miller would acquire her once she was waived by the Sun. Apparently he sees something in her.

Lastly, it got me thinking as to what barometers (or is it strictly case-by-case, similar to oldhuskie's points about H Jones?) can be used when looking retrospectively at players who struggled early and became stars. 2 great examples are Rutgers alums Laney & Copper. Look at their production, efficiency, PT, etc. for the 1st 4 years of their careers. So, bbsamjj (resident Rutgers expert) or anyone else, please enlighten me.

Laney I think of as someone who obviously improved, but needed to find the right fit to thrive. That happened in Atlanta in the Wubble season, and has continued in NY. There are a lot of players who fit this mold, including Mabrey going from LA to Dallas, early returns on Alanna Smith in Chicago and Dangerfield in Dallas. Some players need to be on the right team to even get a shot at playing. Fit matters a ton.

Copper is more of a story of someone who steadily improved before having a breakout. There are a lot of examples of players like--the first that come to mind are former #1 picks Jackie Young and Kelsey Plum.

The point is--VERY few rookies take the league by storm in year 1, not to mention on day 1. Through 3 games, Boston is doing about as well as you can expect of anyone [minus the MVP season Parker had as a rookie). But there are LOADS of players who get better and better the longer their careers go.

 

[bbsamjj]

I watched portions of the Chicago-Dallas game last night and saw Alanna Smith play -- to my eyes -- the best game of her WNBA career: 14 points and 12 rebounds. She might've had more if a few three-pt. attempts didn't rim out. She was initially drafted by the Mercury and was hit by injuries and Sandy Brondello not giving her much floor time. Sometimes a player need to find the right situation with a tingel of good timing. Chicago has injuries to the front court, so this may be that chance.

Plus, there's a lot of new players -- Marina Mabrey & Courtney Williams -- who are more than willing to dish off the rock if the player hits the shot.

It's only 4 games, but the pieces in Chicago seem to be coming together thus far.

They are winning with defense--they have the second best defensive rating in the league (after Vegas).

Elizabeth Williams seems reinvigorated. Alanna Smith and Dana Evans seem poised for career years. Coach Wade seems very talented at finding forgotten players and giving them a chance (see Rebekah Gardner). He seems to have found two more in that vein with Morgan Betsch and Sika Kone. Copper and Mabrey are doing Copper and Mabrey things.

Meanwhile, Courtney Williams seems to be playing at her highest levels. 10.5ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.3apg (rebounds and assists would be career highs).

 

[Tangential]

It's only 4 games, but the pieces in Chicago seem to be coming together thus far.

They are winning with defense--they have the second best defensive rating in the league (after Vegas).

Elizabeth Williams seems reinvigorated. Alanna Smith and Dana Evans seem poised for career years. Coach Wade seems very talented at finding forgotten players and giving them a chance (see Rebekah Gardner). He seems to have found two more in that vein with Morgan Betsch and Sika Kone. Copper and Mabrey are doing Copper and Mabrey things.

Meanwhile, Courtney Williams seems to be playing at her highest levels. 10.5ppg, 8.3rpg, 5.3apg (rebounds and assists would be career highs).

Yeah, right. In my opinion, they lost 5 of their top 6 and 6 of their top 8 players from last year's team. They're actually 3-1, but clearly ranked #5 in my power rankings. None of the other 7 teams (6 through12) are close to their backcourt trio (whether you play 3 guards or a wing at 3); Evans is showing signs of improvement and A Smith & E Williams look better than expected.

Obviously no argument here. Their frontcourt went from who is going to fill the shoes of Parker, Stevens, Meesseman/Dolson over the last couple years to who will sit once Bertsch and Izzy Harrison return from injuries. An interesting thing that I noticed about Coach Wade is that he let Parker & Sloot talk strategy during timeouts throughout their championship run 2 years ago and yesterday it was the same with Courtney & KFC in the huddle.