Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[Carl Spackler]

What PSU should do is run a clean program that reports child molesters immediately. That's what I expect they are doing. Your logic would have them totally destroy the football program first. Well, would you apply that same logic to Eastern Michigan University, where the President was found guilty of covering up the murder of two co-eds committed by another student. Should EMU be destroyed first, and then rebuilt?

PSU is going to pay in two ways. One, they will pay damages in civil suits. Two, 10% of AD money is going to children services charities. What would destroying football accomplish?

Detach yourself for a second. I don't know anything about the culture and widespread influence of E. Michigan. Simple question: Would you be comfortable showering and using the sauna after a hard practice/game at the same facility that Jerry Sandusky did what he did?

Yes - I'm talking about complete destroying that facility. I'm talking about sanctions to the football program strong enough such that officials in the institution, now and in the future, NEVER put defending their athletic department in a position on the priority list of actions that supercedes something like - bringing a child rapist to justice. I know - your response - well - they did report him..........f8ck that. This man was bringing boys into the showers at the football facility for at least two decades, and nobody stopped him.

It appears, after careful review of the NCAA 439 page operating manual, that the only way it happens, is if Penn State self-imposes.

I applaud Mr. McQueary for being the citizen-warrior to make a change, and get in the spotlight to say something is not right, even as long as it took. I wonder why people all over pennsylvania and penn state aren't shouting from the tops of the blue ridge mountains about all the change that should be happening right now (and I hope is happening), in procedures, in laws of the land, in the way individuals conduct themselves and are held accountable.......and ignoring this trial.....confident that justice willl be done to the man - and instead publicly demonstrating how and why something like the coverup of Jerry Sandusky will never happen again......but the culture of Penn STate is not to do that.

Instead, it appears that entire culture, the entire state of pennsylvania, instead, is paying breathless attention to what side of a he said / she said argument over who knew what, and said what, when, and everybody is simply saying - well those people aren't at the university anymore, when somebody like me questions. ......no they're gone - can you imagine if they were still there? That's a given - they all should be gone.

The question is what's being done to change everything that allowed those people to exist in that culture as they did.

The fact that nobody is talking about these things, as loudly as they can, and instead, just like you here upstater, are following this trial to find out he said/ she said......is what I'm talking about. Everything I just wrote is dealing with teh social problem through the heart. If it is happening, why aren't people talking about it? If it's not - the fist is definitely necessary.

 

[mattp]

how can you applaud McQuery as a "citizen-warrior" when he acted as a bystander while a child was raped? i think people are getting too caught up on the reporting and not enough on his allowing it to happen

 

[Carl Spackler]

how can you applaud McQuery as a "citizen-warrior" when he acted as a bystander while a child was raped? i think people are getting too caught up on the reporting and not enough on his allowing it to happen

I"ve read the disgusting documents in this case. There is a statement by a janitor, in the prelim documents of this case, where he says he witnessed Jerry Sandusky in an act, found himself able to do nothing about the situation, and that eventually caused a complete mental breakdown. This was a combat veteran in Vietnam that clearly said that what he witnessed for that single moment, caused him more anguish and pain and mental disorder, than all the blood, guts and death of that war.

I don't know how I'd react to seeing/witnessing this man in the act. I'd hope that I would react differently than McQueary did. I'm not sure any human being can definitively predict what they would do in the presence of such a thing happening. He came forward, eventually, and he is the man that stepped up to question the culture that had been defended and protected for so long, and yes - for - that I label him as a citizen warrior.

 

[upstater]

Detach yourself for a second. I don't know anything about the culture and widespread influence of E. Michigan.

The president is covering for a murderer. What more do you need to0 know? Or, are you saying you know the culture at PSU but not at EMU? Find that hard to believe.

Simple question: Would you be comfortable showering and using the sauna after a hard practice/game at the same facility that Jerry Sandusky did what he did.

Yes, of course I would. You're saying they also need to waste tens if not hundreds of millions to build new facilities? Is your position that Catholic churches should be destroyed as well?

The rest of what you wrote is just a screed to make yourself feel better.

 

[CL82]

Did I say that? I actually said the exact opposite.

Ah, then I misunderstood it. It seemed out of character for you.

 

[upstater]

Ah, then I misunderstood it. It seemed out of character for you.

I've always believed they screwed up royally by not reporting right away. Any mention of sex should have meant immediate reporting.

 

[businesslawyer]

PSU is going to pay in two ways. One, they will pay damages in civil suits. Two, 10% of AD money is going to children services charities. What would destroying football accomplish?

An excellent question. And the answer is that destroying football at PSU would do enough damage to Penn State, and everyone at every level in charge of it, that the next time institutional leaders are faced with making a tough choice where doing what is right might have adverse consequences for their athletic programs, they will make the tough choice to prevent worse consequences down the road.

Do I expect that to happen? No. Am I even saying it should happen? No, I wouldn't go that far. I think it would be reasonable for that to happen, but I'm not enough involved in the facts to be certain that it should. But it absolutely would serve a purpose. The same purpose that suspending UConn from next year's hoop tourney will serve (the treatment of UConn is unfair and unconscionable but if anyone doesn't think the NCAA now has the attention of all member institutions on the APR requirements they're nuts.)

 

[upstater]

An excellent question. And the answer is that destroying football at PSU would do enough damage to Penn State, and everyone at every level in charge of it, that the next time institutional leaders are faced with making a tough choice where doing what is right might have adverse consequences for their athletic programs, they will make the tough choice to prevent worse consequences down the road.

Do I expect that to happen? No. Am I even saying it should happen? No, I wouldn't go that far. I think it would be reasonable for that to happen, but I'm not enough involved in the facts to be certain that it should. But it absolutely would serve a purpose. The same purpose that suspending UConn from next year's hoop tourney will serve (the treatment of UConn is unfair and unconscionable but if anyone doesn't think they now have the attention of all member institutions they're nuts.)

I don't see it. I'm all for penalties, but I think in this case, what actually happened is so far beyond that a penalty is not a deterrent. It's like capital punishment. Is it really there to dissuade people from killing? Besides, every university in the country changed their reporting policies because of this. I know my university did, and the reason for it, spelled out explicitly in the changes to the procedures, was PSU and Syracuse.

And, this is not only a football problem at a place like PSU. We've seen it elsewhere. But at PSU in particular the President, who was ironically a family counseling expert, also played the CYA game when evidence was uncovered of a professor molesting a child. Some have said, would Sandusky have gone unreported if he were a professor? Well, under Spanier, the answer is evidently yes.

 

[businesslawyer]

I don't see it. I'm all for penalties, but I think in this case, what actually happened is so far beyond that a penalty is not a deterrent. It's like capital punishment. Is it really there to dissuade people from killing? Besides, every university in the country changed their reporting policies because of this. I know my university did, and the reason for it, spelled out explicitly in the changes to the procedures, was PSU and Syracuse.

And, this is not only a football problem at a place like PSU. We've seen it elsewhere. But at PSU in particular the President, who was ironically a family counseling expert, also played the CYA game when evidence was uncovered of a professor molesting a child. Some have said, would Sandusky have gone unreported if he were a professor? Well, under Spanier, the answer is evidently yes.

While, as I said, I'm not ready to urge the death penalty. But a one or two year death penalty for the football program is not the equivalent of capital punishment for the State of Pennsylvania's flagship institution for higher learning. Please.

 

[upstater]

While, as I said, I'm not ready to urge the death penalty. But a one or two year death penalty for the football program is not the equivalent of capital punishment for the State of Pennsylvania's flagship institution for higher learning. Please.

Huh? Did I say it's the equivalent? I used the analogy to say the goal of deterrence is not always in line with punishment.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Huh? Did I say it's the equivalent? I used the analogy to say the goal of deterrence is not always in line with punishment.

First of all, it's all fluff, b/c the NCAA has no teeth in this matter, unless they add something to that 439 page monster of a manual.

The punishment - the damage necessary to be inflicted - in my opinion, would have to come from somewhere else. That clear......

The fact that you, upstater, can't even acknowledge that a death penalty to the football program, MIGHT be warranted, not IS warranted, as I'm arguing, but MIGHT be warranted.....for reason clearly stated above by BL..........just strengthen's my opinion on the social problem that is the culture of Penn State University, and that inflicting damage is the only way to change it.

 

[uconndogs]

My sense is that the NCAA isn't going to go anywhere near this. And that to me speaks volumes about all that is wrong with college football. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[upstater]

First of all, it's all fluff, b/c the NCAA has no teeth in this matter, unless they add something to that 439 page monster of a manual.

The punishment - the damage necessary to be inflicted - in my opinion, would have to come from somewhere else. That clear......

The fact that you, upstater, can't even acknowledge that a death penalty to the football program, MIGHT be warranted, not IS warranted, as I'm arguing, but MIGHT be warranted.....for reason clearly stated above by BL..........just strengthen's my opinion on the social problem that is the culture of Penn State University, and that inflicting damage is the only way to change it.

So, if PSU football gets the death penalty, then child molesters will be reported. And because I don't go along with that formulation, it means PSU has a culture problem. Right. And PSU should destroy facilities and spend hundreds of millions building them back up. Apparently, I'm the crazy one.

 

[Carl Spackler]

So, if PSU football gets the death penalty, then child molesters will be reported. And because I don't go along with that formulation

Trying to twist what BL said about the death penalty into what you just wrote, is yet another example of burying your head in the sand and failing to be able to admit that the culture of Penn state just might be effed up. What you just wrote is not what BL was saying, or what I have been repeatedly saying at all.

You are in this online discussion clearly as a supporter of Penn State university. I'm making the reach, that your opinions and thoughts on this matter, are representative of the supporters of Penn State in general, and it really concerns me - because there is no way to change it, unless people at Penn state actually change things themselves. Clearly a reach that has flaws, but also not completely off target either.

I have made my opinion very clear, and separated fact from opinion. Fact 1. Jerry Sandusky was bringing young boys into the showers at Penn State regularly according to sworn testimony, for over two decades. Nobody stopped him. Fact. He was relieved of his coaching position by Joe Paterno in 1998, and given an office at the University. Fact. Ok. now - opinion coming upstater - I'll make it a separate paragraph ok?

Opinion. I think Joe Paterno, knew the NCAA inside and out, and was in complete control of not just his football program, but the entire university, and he had legislative, judicial and executive influence beyond the university. I believe that he felt that he had created a "city" go back to Greitens quote - in central pennsylvania, that he as the leader, was going to defend, and that he chose to handle Jerry Sandusky, they way he was handled for so long, and used all of his power to protect what he had built, and handle Sandusky in house.

Ok - back to facts. New paragraph ok?

Sandusky was not stopped and brought to justice until McQueary took action beyond reporting what he saw to authorities at the time it happened. Molested boys, have been forced, again, to relive what was done to them, on the witness stand in the public eye - putting them through it all AGAIN. Just yesterday, Sandusky's own adopted son has made it public that he was molested.

Back to opinion - ok? new paragraph?

Jerry Sandusky has allowed all these boys, to be violated, and their souls tormented - publicly - repeatedly, by his actions, and continuin gactions through this trial. This is not my opinion. This is nationally syndicated writer Rick Reilly - and I agree whole-heartedly. My opinoin, is that it is the culture of Penn State, that has allowed this to reach this point, as people, just like you upstater, are so concerned about a doctor, and McQueary's testimony - rather than concern for those 8 young men that testified, and the countless others out there that have irreparablly been damaged by this man.....many of which, are probably dead, due to the torments that were inflicted on them, and their subsequent behavious into adulthood.

Last opinoin:

I believe whole heartedly that if Joe Paterno felt any external threat to his empire, his city-state he built from nothing in central pennsylvania.... because of the actions of Jerry Sandusky - he would have been brought to justice - a long, long time ago. I believe that over 6 decades, that the culture of that city state, has the exact same priorites that Paterno did - complete control, and penn state above all else.

I don't find anything illogical, or cuckoo about the thought process I've laid out. What is illogical and crazy to me, is that Jerry Sandusky brought young boys into the showers at Penn State, not just once, not many times, but repeatedly over at least two decades..... with the full knowledge of MANY people, and nobody stopped it.......and a single person supporting PSU, you, can't acknowledge, that the football program, that allowed that to happen, should maybe, just maybe.....not definitely - but maybe - be shut down for a while, as priorities in the system get re-evaluated - you can't even admit that - when there is no real chance of it happening anyway!!!

Last last opinion.

Mr. McQueary, in my book, is a far greater man than Joe Paterno. Paterno was an ivy league grad, and schooled in the classics. I hope, I just hope, as I wrote before, God rest his soul, that before he died, when he said he wished he had done more, that he didn't mean more to keep Sandusky under house arrest and monitoring, and rather more to put the man right where he is now, behind bars.

I hope I begin to see more and more evidence of change through the heart at Penn State, as I've described, b/c as of now, I'm convinced that the fist is the only way to change things, and I'm not seeing enough to change my opinion and the unfortunate reality, is that there is no governing force, aside from teh state of pennsylvania itself, that can inflict that kind of damage to create change.

It's a terrible, terrible tragedy and so heart breaking in so very many ways. The scale of the tragedy exactly proportional to the scale of the grandeur that Joe Paterno built from a small land grant agriculture school in central PA over 6 decades.

I'm really done with this now. I've said all I can say.

 

[upstater]

I was responding

Trying to twist what BL said about the death penalty into what you just wrote, is yet another example of burying your head in the sand and failing to be able to admit that the culture of Penn state just might be effed up. What you just wrote is not what BL was saying, or what I have been repeatedly saying at all.

You are in this online discussion clearly as a supporter of Penn State university. I'm making the reach, that your opinions and thoughts on this matter, are representative of the supporters of Penn State in general, and it really concerns me - because there is no way to change it, unless people at Penn state actually change things themselves. Clearly a reach that has flaws, but also not completely off target either.

I have made my opinion very clear, and separated fact from opinion. Fact 1. Jerry Sandusky was bringing young boys into the showers at Penn State regularly according to sworn testimony, for over two decades. Nobody stopped him. Fact. He was relieved of his coaching position by Joe Paterno in 1998, and given an office at the University. Fact. Ok. now - opinion coming upstater - I'll make it a separate paragraph ok?

Opinion. I think Joe Paterno, knew the NCAA inside and out, and was in complete control of not just his football program, but the entire university, and he had legislative, judicial and executive influence beyond the university. I believe that he felt that he had created a "city" go back to Greitens quote - in central pennsylvania, that he as the leader, was going to defend, and that he chose to handle Jerry Sandusky, they way he was handled for so long, and used all of his power to protect what he had built, and handle Sandusky in house.

Ok - back to facts. New paragraph ok?

Sandusky was not stopped and brought to justice until McQueary took action beyond reporting what he saw to authorities at the time it happened. Molested boys, have been forced, again, to relive what was done to them, on the witness stand in the public eye - putting them through it all AGAIN. Just yesterday, Sandusky's own adopted son has made it public that he was molested.

Back to opinion - ok? new paragraph?

Jerry Sandusky has allowed all these boys, to be violated, and their souls tormented - publicly - repeatedly, by his actions, and continuin gactions through this trial. This is not my opinion. This is nationally syndicated writer Rick Reilly - and I agree whole-heartedly. My opinoin, is that it is the culture of Penn State, that has allowed this to reach this point, as people, just like you upstater, are so concerned about a doctor, and McQueary's testimony - rather than concern for those 8 young men that testified, and the countless others out there that have irreparablly been damaged by this man.....many of which, are probably dead, due to the torments that were inflicted on them, and their subsequent behavious into adulthood.

Last opinoin:

I believe whole heartedly that if Joe Paterno felt any external threat to his empire, his city-state he built from nothing in central pennsylvania.... because of the actions of Jerry Sandusky - he would have been brought to justice - a long, long time ago. I believe that over 6 decades, that the culture of that city state, has the exact same priorites that Paterno did - complete control, and penn state above all else.

I don't find anything illogical, or cuckoo about the thought process I've laid out. What is illogical and crazy to me, is that Jerry Sandusky brought young boys into the showers at Penn State, not just once, not many times, but repeatedly over at least two decades..... with the full knowledge of MANY people, and nobody stopped it.......and a single person supporting PSU, you, can't acknowledge, that the football program, that allowed that to happen, should maybe, just maybe.....not definitely - but maybe - be shut down for a while, as priorities in the system get re-evaluated - you can't even admit that - when there is no real chance of it happening anyway!!!

Last last opinion.

Mr. McQueary, in my book, is a far greater man than Joe Paterno. Paterno was an ivy league grad, and schooled in the classics. I hope, I just hope, as I wrote before, God rest his soul, that before he died, when he said he wished he had done more, that he didn't mean more to keep Sandusky under house arrest and monitoring, and rather more to put the man right where he is now, behind bars.

I hope I begin to see more and more evidence of change through the heart at Penn State, as I've described, b/c as of now, I'm convinced that the fist is the only way to change things, and I'm not seeing enough to change my opinion and the unfortunate reality, is that there is no governing force, aside from teh state of pennsylvania itself, that can inflict that kind of damage to create change.

It's a terrible, terrible tragedy and so heart breaking in so very many ways. The scale of the tragedy exactly proportional to the scale of the grandeur that Joe Paterno built from a small land grant agriculture school in central PA over 6 decades.

I'm really done with this now. I've said all I can say.

I was responding to you, not BL. Not sure at all what my response to BL has to do with it. I don't believe BL thinks PSU should destroy facilities, etc. then rebuild them.

As for the rest, we disagree, and already have in this thread, so why go on and on.

You also totally contradict your position in making out some to be heroes and others villains. It's such a black and white world for you. One of your heroes in this case is a mandatory reporter. Create change? In what? You continue to totally misrepresent things that I've already addressed, so why would I even bother responding to the mess of a post?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Upstater thinks Penn State has suffered enough for engaging in a 2 decade long, institution wide, cover up of a convicted child predator.

 

[upstater]

Upstater thinks Penn State has suffered enough for engaging in a 2 decade long, institution wide, cover up of a convicted child predator.

Is this the point where I make up shit about Nelson Muntz?

 

[ruskin]

As an outsider to this discussion, I say no death penalty for football program. Ending football temporarily at Penn State will accomplish nothing, except make a very large and overly loyal fan base angry. If any entity deserves a death penalty, it's Sandusky. It's too bad he doesn't live in Texas, where that gentleman took care of business after his 4-year-old was molested.

Clearly unchecked power (Paterno) and an overwhelming desire to protect the program at all costs led to this debacle. Penn State lost its coach, its reputation, and, most important, is about to lose a crapload of money - a lot of that football TV revenue money - in civil suits. No amount of cash can give those poor boys their life back, but I hope they squeeze every cent they can out of PSU. That, plus Sandusky rotting in jail and then hell, is justice enough for me.

 

[NEforceUConn]

Yes I grew up in CT and East Coast FB is/was Penn State and/or ND. But what has happened at Penn State with this situation- any recruit committing or going there really is, well, twisted. It is sad. Yes Penn State has storied FB, but if you can not make a moral choice and say NO to an institution that (beyond a shadow of a doubt , but unfortunately most likely unprovable in a court of law) allowed this child molestation to occur on FB property then you have no moral fiber whatsoever.

It would be similar to students backing Nixon come hell or high water sans Watergate, or thinking that Angelo Mozilo and the Country Wide business model was rightgeous and sound.

 

[whaler11]

I've haven't followed the case that closely, it was a clear case of guilt.

In my opinion there is no need for NCAA involvement - the feds are going to turn the screws to the guilty parties.

Penn State will be cleansed of their leadership soon and the 100,000 fans, current players and new coaching staff who had nothing to do with systemic abuses should be allowed to compete.

I was actually headed to Penn State as a high school senior until my father died during that year and I chose to stay local. I am glad I'm not stuck with the stigma of a Penn State degree from the 90's.

 

[upstater]

Good stuff. Football players at PSU have no moral fiber whatsoever. For that matter, why not extend to students too? Why limit it to recruits?

Just to reiterate the things that seem loopy to me:

1. PSU should demolish its facilities and rebuild them, wasting hundreds of millions of dollars.
2. Recruits have no moral fiber.
3. The NCAA should insist that schools handle sex assault cases according to NCAA dictates.

I'm open to punishment of PSU's football program from the NCAA but I guess I am morally degenerate for disagreeing with the three points above.

 

[uconndogs]

Ask yourself this question: Has this episode done anything to diminish the culture at Penn State that allowed this travesty to be perpetuated? For that matter, has it done anything to impact the insular, win at all cost culture at other college football factories?

Sadly, my answer would be not nearly enough. For that to be the case, true, great and courageous leadership would need to arise from the leadership of our universities. I don't see it and I truly believe we will simply move on to another travesty committed in the interest of establishing and preserving a program so that it can win football games. We can only hope that it does not require that children be put in harm's way again.

Shame on Penn State, shame on JoePa, shame on the leaders of college athletics and shame on all of us who continue to lose sight of what the core of college athletics should promote.

 

[upstater]

Ask yourself this question: Has this episode done anything to diminish the culture at Penn State that allowed this travesty to be perpetuated? For that matter, has it done anything to impact the insular, win at all cost culture at other college football factories?

Sadly, my answer would be not nearly enough. For that to be the case, true, great and courageous leadership would need to arise from the leadership of our universities. I don't see it and I truly believe we will simply move on to another travesty committed in the interest of establishing and preserving a program so that it can win football games. We can only hope that it does not require that children be put in harm's way again.

Shame on Penn State, shame on JoePa, shame on the leaders of college athletics and shame on all of us who continue to lose sight of what the core of college athletics should promote.

You have to establish first that this is just a football thing and not societal. We see it in the Catholic Church, at other schools, and even at PSU when it doesn't deal with football. Someone asked in this thread if the same thing would have happened if it had been a professor rather than a football coach. And the answer is, most probably, since there's a case against a PSU professor that wasn't reported, and which the PSU President responded to with CYA.

 

[uconndogs]

You have to establish first that this is just a football thing and not societal. CYA.

No I haven't. I simply expected more from college football in a dressing it.

 

[upstater]

No I haven't. I simply expected more from college football in a dressing it.

More from football than, say a church or university?

 

[uconndogs]

Knowing what we know about the Catholic Church? Sure. Is that really any place to set the bar?

I was raised a Catholic btw..............

Go on and take this on a philisphical tangent if you want. I simply asked if anyone believes that the underlying issue that plagues college football has been honestly and earnestly addressed as a result of this episode?

 

[upstater]

Knowing what we know about the Catholic Church? Sure. Is that really any place to set the bar?

I was raised a Catholic btw..............

Go on and take this on a philisphical tangent if you want. I simply asked if anyone believes that the underlying issue that plagues college football has been honestly and earnestly addressed as a result of this episode?

Philosophical tangent? The point is, this is bigger than football. I think it's myopic to worry about sports given what happened.

 

[uconndogs]

Focusing on this issue as it relates to football on a football board makes me myopic?

Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[upstater]

Focusing on this issue as it relates to football on a football board makes me myopic?

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Er, no. Saying this happened because of football does.

 

[uconndogs]

I know you are an intelligent person, so I know you understand that is not even remotely what I posted.

But, I'm pretty sure I know why you post such crap.