Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[Carl Spackler]

I don't dispute that schools like BC and Notre Dame and Boise St. have gotten a lot of marketing oooomph out of sports. Maybe UConn fits there too. With schools like Michigan and Virginia it's impossible to say since they had achieved academic powerhouse status before the age of bigtime college sports. Yet, Andrew Zimbalist did a study which said the vast majority get absolutely no help from sports, and that for some schools, there's even a notable sheen from losing that rubs off. I.e. "I'm not going to Rutgers, it's for losers!!!." I don't think this argument can be settled, but for every UConn or Boise St or BC or Notre Dame, there's a U. Cal San Diego or Irvine or Santa Barbara or SUNY or NYU or Boston U.

Section 2.0 Mission. The Naval Academy Athletic Association, founded in 1891, is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization whose objective is to "promote, influence, and assist in financing the varsity athletic programs of the midshipmen of the United States Naval Academy" in accordance with the policy of the Superintendent of the Academy. Through an intercollegiate athletics program that is one of the largest in the country, every midshipman, male and female, is afforded the opportunity to compete in athletics at the Division I level. The emphasis on physical fitness is borne out in the first line of the mission of the U.S. Naval Academy: To develop midshipmen morally, mentally and physically.

This is the gold standard, as far as I'm concerned, as to what a collegiate athletic department should be. Call me biased, that's fine.

The naval academy athlieti assoiation is a non-profit organization that is legally, and financially, separate and distinct from the academic institution thatis the USNA.

The NAAA funds naval academy athletics, completely separate and distinct from the annual fiscal budget of the naval academy. No tax dollars from the U.S. government are used to fund navy athletics.

It's mission, is to act as an integral component, through the means of atletics, competition and physical fitness, to contrbute to the development of midshipmen morally, physically, and mentally.

THat's what an athletic department should do, at any school. Separate, distinct s much aspossible from academic money, self sufficient financially. Yet integral, in the education of every student



Have a nice weekend.

 

[upstater]

Well i see upstater agrees. No one is more guilty than Paterno. He ran the place.

When Presidents came to town they wanted to see Joe. When you have an audience with the President of the United States whenever you desire - you hold the bag when its full of **** in the end.

And yet the President actually offered a job in his cabinet to Spanier. Read the Freeh report, you'll know something about Spanier's involvement, and the other times he looked askance at child abuse. It's clear to me that many people aren't operating on the basic facts.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I haven't changed my position. If there's anything confusing, and this is why Carl and I have disagreed, it's that I see this as an institutional problem and not just a football problem. And that's what I've been saying all along. Prior to the release of the emails two weeks ago I didn't know the extent of everyone's involvement, but I suspected because I knew of similar allegations of child sex abuse in the past, and I knew how they were dealt with. Badly.

I think we've established, that in the cyberspace reality that this discussion is taking place, I"m on the athletics side of the fence and you're on the academics side of the fence when it comes to higher education - yes? no?

If yes, it's no surprise at all, that you will flat out disagree with me till the cows come home to the pastures at cow college, that shutting down the football program will most definitely have the desired affect that you want on correction of the deep, deep rooted problems in the university administration.

 

[upstater]

I think we've established, that in the cyberspace reality that this discussion is taking place, I"m on the athletics side of the fence and you're on the academics side of the fence when it comes to higher education - yes? no?

If yes, it's no surprise at all, that you will flat out disagree with me till the cows come home to the pastures at cow college, that shutting down the football program will most definitely have the desired affect that you want on correction of the deep, deep rooted problems in the university administration.

Shutting down the program will do what then. Explain. What procedures will be put in place? I laid out the three ways they will go to make sure it doesn't happen again. One of them is good. One is worse. One is the current situation. So, how will it impact what needs to be done between the admin., the BOT, and the faculty? That's the crux of the situation and it' exactly what the BOT is dealing with as we speak.

 

[Carl Spackler]

And yet the President actually offered a job in his cabinet to Spanier. Read the Freeh report, you'll know something about Spanier's involvement, and the other times he looked askance at child abuse. It's clear to me that many people aren't operating on the basic facts.

Spanier's going to the rack for this. It's going to happen. You keep poo poo ing the idea that shutting down football at penn state will change anything.

If the NCAA announces tomorrow, that Penn State will not play any home games in 2012, will not be allowed to do all the things that were imposed on SMU in 1987..........

Spanier will be out of his job by the end of the day, and have the FBI, state police, IRS, and every body else crawling up his ass with a microscope as he's packing up his office.

You can't stop the mob. (not the mafia - the mob that would demand Spanier's head)

 

[whaler11]

And yet the President actually offered a job in his cabinet to Spanier. Read the Freeh report, you'll know something about Spanier's involvement, and the other times he looked askance at child abuse. It's clear to me that many people aren't operating on the basic facts.

Yeah no one denies the others guilt. But Paterno ran the place so he is most guilty.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Shutting down the program will do what then. Explain. What procedures will be put in place? I laid out the three ways they will go to make sure it doesn't happen again. One of them is good. One is worse. One is the current situation. So, how will it impact what needs to be done between the admin., the BOT, and the faculty? That's the crux of the situation and it' exactly what the BOT is dealing with as we speak.

People like you put the procedures in place to make sure nothing like this happens again, I"m just telling you how to make a swift and effective change.

 

[upstater]

Spanier's going to the rack for this. It's going to happen. You keep poo poo ing the idea that shutting down football at penn state will change anything.

If the NCAA announces tomorrow, that Penn State will not play any home games in 2012, will not be allowed to do all the things that were imposed on SMU in 1987..........

Spanier will be out of his job by the end of the day, and have the FBI, state police, IRS, and every body else crawling up his ass with a microscope as he's packing up his office.

You can't stop the mob. (not the mafia - the mob that would demand Spanier's head)

I wonder why he hasn't been indicted. According to the report, he lied. I wonder why he hasn't been fired. According to the report, he breached his responsibilities.

 

[upstater]

People like you put the procedures in place to make sure nothing like this happens again, I"m just telling you how to make a swift and effective change.

Not like me. Read Michael Berube's letter to the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/opinion/at-penn-state-a-bitter-reckoning.html You'll see that matters of employee conduct are left to administrators, and now the BOT decides. Faculty are frozen out. This is precisely why I wrote it can get better or worse. The question is going to be, who has power and oversight. I just don't see how the lack of football will impact that decision, because whatever happens, the school will still be weighing employee's rights versus victim's rights. The question is, who has oversight?

 

[upstater]

Yeah no one denies the others guilt. But Paterno ran the place so he is most guilty.

Let's see what you know. How did he run the place when it came to the Sandusky 2001 abuse. What did he do in relation to Spanier.

 

[whaler11]

Let's see what you know. How did he run the place when it came to the Sandusky 2001 abuse. What did he do in relation to Spanier.

Sorry buddy, you worship a false God. There is no debate to be had with you or anyone else who wants to bury their heads in the sand. He was their King and when the chips were down he made the wrong call.

I dont care what the org charts
say. At the end of the day Joe Paterno owns everything that happened in Happy Valley. What an ironic name for a place.

 

[CL82]

Can anyone else tell me if they understand where upstater stands? Don't try to explain, just say you know his stance.

You come off as defending PSU to me. Probably not what you are trying to do but seems that way to me.

Mistakes were made but not by Joe Pa notwithstanding an email trail to the contrary. Changes need to happen but no need for sanctions - the mere fact that this happened and is now public is more than enough to cause change. The BoT will either make things better or worse. The huge pools of money that the school has access to can't be used to pay any judgements. Don't sanction football.

So basically: Sorry we were caught, just leave it to us will take it from here, nothing to see - move along.

 

[whaler11]

That is the funniest part of this thread. The judgments will be for 9 figures - the idea football revenues could cover this is absurd.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

That is the funniest part of this thread. The judgments will be for 9 figures - the idea football revenues could cover this is absurd.

I think it will be about $1MM per victim, and less for those victims that had no connection to Penn State. That is what the Catholic Church paid out, and I saw one estimate from an oft quoted professor at the Vermont School of Law about sports and law who said he expected settlements in the six figures. Right now there are 20 victims, although who knows how many will come out of the woodwork, but just claiming to be a victim will not be enough. The victims will, at the least, be able to provide evidence of a time where they were actually alone with Sandusky. That will be hard.

The point is, anyone who is looking to the courts to punish Penn State will be disappointed.

 

[upstater]

Sorry buddy, you worship a false God. There is no debate to be had with you or anyone else who wants to bury their heads in the sand. He was their King and when the chips were down he made the wrong call.

I dont care what the org charts
say. At the end of the day Joe Paterno owns everything that happened in Happy Valley. What an ironic name for a place.

Not referring to the org charts. Referring to the Freeh report. You appear not to have read it.

 

[upstater]

Mistakes were made but not by Joe Pa notwithstanding an email trail to the contrary. Changes need to happen but no need for sanctions - the mere fact that this happened and is now public is more than enough to cause change. The BoT will either make things better or worse. The huge pools of money that the school has access to can't be used to pay any judgements. Don't sanction football.

So basically: Sorry we were caught, just leave it to us will take it from here, nothing to see - move along.

CL82, that's bullshit and you know it. Close to an outright lie, actually, since I've been conversing with you on this, and to top it off, you proved earlier you weren't even aware of the evidence in the Freeh report.

 

[CL82]

CL82, that's bull**** and you know it. Close to an outright lie, actually, since I've been conversing with you on this, and to top it off, you proved earlier you weren't even aware of the evidence in the Freeh report.

Upstater, first, take it easy.

I've read every page of this thread and that's my sense. It may not have been what you intended to convey, it may not even be what anyone else got out it but that's what I'm walking away with. I think you have to realize that your view on the scandal is different than the vast majority of the board. Whether that's because you are more informed about the workings of PSU and the details of the scandal or because you are too close to the issue to make an unbiased assessment is debatable.

But, if you want, feel free to respond element by element.

Mistakes were made​

​

but not by Joe Pa notwithstanding an email trail to the contrary. (your assertion that the group was already to let a pedophile continue to be free to molest children regardless of Joe Pa's opinion)​

​

Changes need to happen​

​

but no need for sanctions -​

​

the mere fact that this happened and is now public is more than enough to cause change.​

​

The BoT will either make things better or worse.​

​

The huge pools of money that the school has access to can't be used to pay any judgements.​

​

Don't sanction football.​

Do you disagree with any of those?

Finally, you are one of the better more informed posters on the board and you often bring unique and valuable insights to discussions. I'm not trying to bust your balls (well, not a lot anyway). I do think that you're wrong on some of this, though and you know my reasoning from earlier in the thread.

Okay?

 

[uconndogs]

First, my intent here is to in no way slight the victims in this tragedy (or all victims of child abuse for that matter). Football is a trivial matter compared to that issue I'm sure all would agree.

With that caveat, I can't believe the media focus on the Freeh Report. I thought most of this would have been a forgone conclusion and much of the attention would have already run its course. That's not the case, public attention on this continues to escalate and PSU and the NCAA have their backs firmly up against the wall. I may be all wet, but I think PSU's football season is in question.

 

[Palatine]

I have zero sympathy for Penn State. Zero.

They ran a pedophile factory. Everyone knew. They deserve the death penalty.

 

[upstater]

Upstater, first, take it easy.

I've read every page of this thread and that's my sense. It may not have been what you intended to convey, it may not even be what anyone else got out it but that's what I'm walking away with. I think you have to realize that your view on the scandal is different than the vast majority of the board. Whether that's because you are more informed about the workings of PSU and the details of the scandal or because you are too close to the issue to make an unbiased assessment is debatable.

But, if you want, feel free to respond element by element.

Mistakes were made​

​

but not by Joe Pa notwithstanding an email trail to the contrary. (your assertion that the group was already to let a pedophile continue to be free to molest children regardless of Joe Pa's opinion)​

​

Changes need to happen​

​

but no need for sanctions -​

​

the mere fact that this happened and is now public is more than enough to cause change.​

​

The BoT will either make things better or worse.​

​

The huge pools of money that the school has access to can't be used to pay any judgements.​

​

Don't sanction football.​

Do you disagree with any of those?

Finally, you are one of the better more informed posters on the board and you often bring unique and valuable insights to discussions. I'm not trying to bust your balls (well, not a lot anyway). I do think that you're wrong on some of this, though and you know my reasoning from earlier in the thread.

Okay?

Sorry about the earlier post, but, frankly, we've been discussing things the last three days, and you and I have had several exchanges, and I'm just scratching my head to try to figure out how you came up with that list, since I've made the exact opposite points in our exchanges. Even yesterday I transcribed the Schultz letter for you which you agreed with me was incredibly damning. I made the same point above to whaler. How can anyone possibly see that letter and conclude anything other than that Paterno and Spanier were in agreement?

1. I've stated repeatedly that there was a cover-up, not mistakes.
2. That Paterno was part of it.
3. I hold Paterno and Spanier most responsible.
4. There should be sanctions and punishment of football.
5. Never said anything about the publicity bringing about change.
6. I've said the changes have the potential to be very bad, but also very good. As we've seen in all walks of life when scandal or crisis happens, the new regulations and oversight put in place are not necessarily improvements.
7. The huge pool of money (specifically, the endowment) cannot be used for payouts, nor can the research budget. People need to understand that the vast majority of a university's budget is not fungible. People don't give PSU money for any other reason than to use it in the way PSU is contractually bound to direct it. That's why when states cut university funding, schools tend to freak out. A $20 million cut from a billion dollar budget sounds manageable, but when the actual operating budget (the fungible part) is $150 million, you see administrators running around with their hair on fire.

 

[Waquoit]

They ran a pedophile factory. Everyone knew.

Heard a good point on the radio. Sandusky was the top assistant at a high profile successful program. He was the force behind Linebacker U. How come he never got a head coaching gig? Was he ever offered? Why not? Had the word gotten out?

 

[Point6]

I think Penn State will itself decide to pull the plug on football for at least some period of time. Anything short of that will leave Penn State's current leaders open to criticism that they have failed to recognize the gravity of the situation and again compromised for the benefit of the football program. Renovating the locker rooms is a joke and leaving JoePa memorabilia in place is not acceptable in my opinion. While I would have expected more decisive action by now, too many people are watching for the University leaders not to realize that their only move is to take the highest road on their own accord.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

I can't believe you went there upstater, you're true academic aren';t you? Well, I'm a true athletics guy. It figures.

WIthout athletics, specifically Joe Paterno's football program, nope, the state university of pennsylvania does not have the sphere of influence it has. Without Jim Calhoun's basketball program, the state university of connecticut, does not have the sphere of influence.

WIthout athletics at the highest level, without football, Penn State, UConn, are very much the same as the state universities of Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island....for a little real time Kafka - Massachusetts.

Athletics and Academics - yin and yang, forever trying to devour each other, and needing each other to grow.

"Athletics Guys) knowing about Kafka are suspect.

 

[CL82]

Sorry about the earlier post, but, frankly, we've been discussing things the last three days, and you and I have had several exchanges, and I'm just scratching my head to try to figure out how you came up with that list, since I've made the exact opposite points in our exchanges. Even yesterday I transcribed the Schultz letter for you which you agreed with me was incredibly damning. I made the same point above to whaler. How can anyone possibly see that letter and conclude anything other than that Paterno and Spanier were in agreement?

1. I've stated repeatedly that there was a cover-up, not mistakes.
2. That Paterno was part of it.
3. I hold Paterno and Spanier most responsible.
4. There should be sanctions and punishment of football.
5. Never said anything about the publicity bringing about change.
6. I've said the changes have the potential to be very bad, but also very good. As we've seen in all walks of life when scandal or crisis happens, the new regulations and oversight put in place are not necessarily improvements.
7. The huge pool of money (specifically, the endowment) cannot be used for payouts, nor can the research budget. People need to understand that the vast majority of a university's budget is not fungible. People don't give PSU money for any other reason than to use it in the way PSU is contractually bound to direct it. That's why when states cut university funding, schools tend to freak out. A $20 million cut from a billion dollar budget sounds manageable, but when the actual operating budget (the fungible part) is $150 million, you see administrators running around with their hair on fire.

Fair enough.

So death penalty or not?

 

[FAIRTIDES]

Can anyone else tell me if they understand where upstater stands? Don't try to explain, just say you know his stance.

You come off as defending PSU to me. Probably not what you are trying to do but seems that way to me.

I think his "stance" has evolved and that he is now close to the thread's Consensus.