Which five programs bring the least to Big East

[nelsonmuntz]

This can be measured by fan interest, market, program success, any way you want. The PC discussion got me thinking.

My list (in reverse order of most worthless):

5) Rutgers - as with everything else Rutgers does, they shouldn't suck as bad as they do. But they still suck, and everyone might as well accept that reality.

4) Providence - If they gave degrees in overpaying mediocre coaches and then being unable to fire them, Providence would have a doctorate. Any modestly talented coach like Pete Gillen or Rick Barnes gets out of there as soon as they can. Weak local recruiting, modest market, tradition has cobwebs, and the don't even beat BCU.

3) Seton Hall - from the smelliest part of New Jersey. It has been about 20 years since Seton Hall was relevant nationally, and close to that long since they were last ranked. Seton Hall doesn't bring anything that Rutgers and St. Johns don't bring better.

2) USF - The only thing interesting about this program is the freakshow in the stands. Has anyone ever looked in the stands? What a weird crowd. Otherwise, they are terrible and no one cares. And the fact that they could have hired Huggins and hired Stan Heath instead shows they don't care either.

1) TCU - they jump right to the top of the list. The program is just terrible, and no one cares. Even though the market is huge, football is #1, #2, and #3 in importance there, and the Dallas Mavericks are #4.

 

[willie99]

no football school can be on that list

1) Depaul, nothing nowhere
2a) S Hall
2b) Prov
4) Marq
5) ND, no football, they're expendable

if we were to expand to 12/20, everybody should be safe

16/20, 4 of them are gone

 

[Dann]

17- SHU. they are in a mk we already hold, not worth anything $ wise becuase they haven't been good in a while. losing them means nothing but a better game for each team on the schedule. instead of uconn playing them, we can play a cincy a 2nd time for example which would = more tv $ for the league.
16-Depaul. they think they bring the Chi mk but they don't bring it more than ND does. The program remind me of Prov wondering where the last 30 years went. sure they had good teams every once in a while, but they are a nobody today...losing them is the same as SHU. the mk they bring will stay as long as we can keep ND for everything but football.
15-Marq. They are a great program, i hope they continue to build post buzz. i like playing them and having them in the league. they have a small fanbase and bball is the only sport they bring to the table. the mk is good but nothing special. they also have no history in the BE so they are one slot below Prov for that reason only.
14-Prov. they may be having a good past month on the recruit trail, but please wake up. they have been shity for years upon years. they bring a ok mk at best and they lose to either bc or uri every year, thats not BE bball. there school brings nothing else to the table.
13-11Nova/Gtown/SJU. would love to see a new hybrid conf with these guys in it. they hold huge mk's and hold there weight on the bball side. 12fball+4bball is they key to sucess imo for the BE...10/11/12 on the fball side is the ? Those 3 mk's/areas are important for BE being the footprint of bball it is.
10-ND. they are more important then^ becuase they have a bowl tie in for fball. all the same bball qualities as ^ plus a bigger national fanbase. when nd is .500 or better in a season, tv picks up the game if its not already on.
9-1. fball schools

 

[UConnSwag11]

Depaul seton hall pc rutgers nd

 

[EricLA]

i agree - as far as the "Big East" is concerned, absolutely no way can you have a football team on the list as football completely rules over the college landscape. so you'd have to pick the bottom 4 traditional crappy hoops only teams... now if you were asking the question just as it relates to basketball, of course that would be a different story. TCU, by the way, is instantly one of the most important schools in the Big East. they will probably be the best football team in the conference and therefore at the head of the pack, not matter how bad their other sports teams may be.

So the first 3 are easy - Depaul, Providence, and Seton Hall. Sure, each team has been good at one point or another, but over all, they are a complete drag on the leagaue. then i guess you'd have to list Marquette next.

 

[Waquoit]

Stupid thread. There was a time where no one brought less to the table than UConn. Good thing we didn't get kicked out then.

 

[Yonick]

When Miami, VT, & bcu left for the ACC, I definately thought adding USF, Cinn & Louisville were great ideas. I could never understand why Marquette & DePaul were included. Marquette has done very well in hoops, but a 16 team hoop league is very tough to manage. Always have 1-2, perhaps 3 teams getting left out.
In the future, many of the superpowers seem to be leaning towards a 16 team league. Nobody here will get disapointed regarding an invite to the big dance. What will happen is the mid major will get hurt. Unfortunately, it's the hope of that mid major upset that holds much of the interest within the first two rounds of the tourney.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

they have a small fanbase

Stopped reading right there. Marquette is top 20 in basketball attendance every single season.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

i agree - as far as the "Big East" is concerned, absolutely no way can you have a football team on the list as football completely rules over the college landscape. so you'd have to pick the bottom 4 traditional crappy hoops only teams... now if you were asking the question just as it relates to basketball, of course that would be a different story. TCU, by the way, is instantly one of the most important schools in the Big East. they will probably be the best football team in the conference and therefore at the head of the pack, not matter how bad their other sports teams may be.

So the first 3 are easy - Depaul, Providence, and Seton Hall. Sure, each team has been good at one point or another, but over all, they are a complete drag on the leagaue. then i guess you'd have to list Marquette next.

Football does not completely rule over basketball. This isn't 2003 anymore. Look at the recent final fours, plenty of hoops only schools.

Markets rule in the modern college athletics environment. The Pac 12 has been mediocre to bad among the majors on the field and on the court. But they have the fastest growing markets in the country, which is why they were shown the kwon by Fox and ESPN. Baylor is finally good in both basketball and football, and a dud like Texas Tech will be saved instead because Waco is worthless and TTU has alums throughout the state of Texas. Oklahoma is one of the Top 5 programs in football history, and it is learning this week that the Pac 12 and Big 10 have no interest in the Sooners without Texas.

Markets, markets, markets. Then content, content, content. Basketball content matters a lot more than it did 5-8 years ago. Dedicated networks need programming, and basketball provides lots of it, during primetime, and is more popular in wealthy urban markets that advertisers like. A 30 share in Alabama is just not that interesting to Lexus, but a 8 in Chicago is.

 

[RuffRuff]

Totally agree that no relevant football program can be on this list - in todays market, that is the sport that is driving everything. Clearly Depaul is at the top of this list - a school that once was thought to be a way into the Chicago market, do they really provide that? Chicago is a pro sports town and Depaul hasn't been relevant in ages, holding onto a miserable coach for far too long. They are a complete non entity and a school that could be dropped in a heartbeat. That team is built to be in the same conference as Xavier. From there, Seton Hall has to be number 2 - a commuter school in NJ with not much of a fan base - no business in the new Big East. Time has moved past the Hall - they will never, ever be relevant and if not for PJ Carlesimo, would be a complete afterthought on every single point.

Those two school are 1A and 1B - I give the Hall the nod only because it's had a firm place in the BE for so long.

PC has to be number three - the only thing they have going for them right now is Ed Cooley. They've long been irrelevant, although could have a nice little run here with their recruiting class. Although, if it's good enough, someone will come fishing for Ed and he'll collect on his payday. Another school that just feels MAAC. Like Bill Belichek does cold hearted - you have to know when it's time to cut bait with someone who really doesn't have much of a future.

Marquette is 3b - the only thing keeping them here is that they've managed to be consistently solid in hoops. But they're very much another stepping stone school for most coaches.

The rest gets tougher. I'd love to say ND, but they have name recognition and have provided good teams in the BE. Aside from that, they add some variety to the BE bringing a little bit of that Duke demographic to winning. They have a rabid fan base. But how long can you take the football thing without just saying, alright already.

 

[EricLA]

Football does not completely rule over basketball. This isn't 2003 anymore. Look at the recent final fours, plenty of hoops only schools.

Markets rule in the modern college athletics environment. The Pac 12 has been mediocre to bad among the majors on the field and on the court. But they have the fastest growing markets in the country, which is why they were shown the kwon by Fox and ESPN. Baylor is finally good in both basketball and football, and a dud like Texas Tech will be saved instead because Waco is worthless and TTU has alums throughout the state of Texas. Oklahoma is one of the Top 5 programs in football history, and it is learning this week that the Pac 12 and Big 10 have no interest in the Sooners without Texas.

Markets, markets, markets. Then content, content, content. Basketball content matters a lot more than it did 5-8 years ago. Dedicated networks need programming, and basketball provides lots of it, during primetime, and is more popular in wealthy urban markets that advertisers like. A 30 share in Alabama is just not that interesting to Lexus, but a 8 in Chicago is.

you are 100% wrong. or maybe we are talking about 2 different things. when you are looking at conference realignment and what major conferences want to add new teams, i'm guessing it's 90% football, 9% men's basketball, and 1% other sports. maybe the football % is even higher. college sports is revenue driven, and when discussing the big boys, football makes all the decisions and $$ and it's not even close.

that isn't to say that schools with weak or no football programs can't have good hoops teams. or that their hoops teams can't deliver revenue, but it pales in comparison to football. 'nova, Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier some years, Gonzaga, Butler, etc etc. but you'll never see Butler invited to the Big 10 or SEC because they don't care about how good the hoops program is, or that they made the NC game 2 years in a row.

so when someone asks about what programs bring the least to the table for the Big East conference as a whole, it's all about football. if the question was about which hoops teams suck the worst, then you could put TCU, USF on the list. but as far as any major conference is concerned, it's ALL about football.

 

[RS9999X]

Since this is the basketball forum:

PC
Rutgers
USF
Depaul
TCU

 

[RS9999X]

If the question is ultimately who shoudl be the + 4 in Basketball if Football goes to 12 the answer is ND, Nova, Georgetown and St John's

Marquette would be a loss in my eyes. They would get sacrificed to dump a redundant media market in Seton Hall and a non-performer who isn't getting enough eyeballs.
lt also depends on how the media contract is structured as there are two numbers floating out there (BBall as an equal dollar share to Football and another where BBall gets aout 25% of the total contract--still much richer than A-10 ro C-USA).

 

[ibleedhuskyblue]

PC
DePaul
Seton Hall
Marquette
Tie between rutty/ND/nova

 

[alexd]

But how would the BE survive if it's headqaurters had to move out of the great city of Providence??

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

Stupid thread. There was a time where no one brought less to the table than UConn. Good thing we didn't get kicked out then.

Very well said. UConn was 1 of the founding schools of the Big East. It is also worth noting it was Providence, St. John's, Georgetown and Syracuse that extended an invitation to UConn to join the BE in 1979. So much has changed over the years but because I am old school there is no way I would want Providence out. Most true basketball fans would like to see the rivalry between PC/UConn heat up and Cooley appears to be on his way to making that happen. UConn won the NIT 9 years after joining the BE.

 

[Ts5034]

If and when this actually goes down. I dont want to see any of the founding schools leave the big east. It just wouldnt seem right. Remember the big east started as a basketball conference but i know times have changed.

 

[Drumguy]

no football school can be on that list

1) Depaul, nothing nowhere
2a) S Hall
2b) Prov
4) Marq
5) ND, no football, they're expendable

if we were to expand to 12/20, everybody should be safe

16/20, 4 of them are gone

I'm going to sub St. John's for ND. Other than history in Men's bball, what does SJU bring to the table now. We could still have the tourney in the Garden.

 

[willie99]

I'm going to sub St. John's for ND. Other than history in Men's bball, what does SJU bring to the table now. We could still have the tourney in the Garden.

NYC

ND uses us and can leave us for a better football conference at any moment

but if we go to 16/20 and have to drop 4, they still make the cut on my list

 

[MCNPA]

I'm going to sub St. John's for ND. Other than history in Men's bball, what does SJU bring to the table now. We could still have the tourney in the Garden.

Amazed with this comment. "other than history", SJU offers the biggest market in the US without and NYC competitors, SJU is also a top 8 Program in All time wins. Albeit, the last 20 years have been riddled with poor coaching decision, as it stands, SJU offers as much as any program can as a basketball school. Lavin has taken the exposure level to new heights and was plastered over the tv more than just about any coach last season, and recruiting wise is making SJU relevant again. SJU had a huge increase in ticket sales last year, and it should keep increasing steeply with a few more Garden games instead of on-campus games. The fact remains that even in the bad years, SJU attendance is higher than every team in the PAC-10 except Arizona. Seems the good years are coming back fast. I'd include SJU in any equation moving forward if you are to keep bball only schools. much more important overall than Notre Dame who offers little.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

you are 100% wrong. or maybe we are talking about 2 different things. when you are looking at conference realignment and what major conferences want to add new teams, i'm guessing it's 90% football, 9% men's basketball, and 1% other sports. maybe the football % is even higher. college sports is revenue driven, and when discussing the big boys, football makes all the decisions and $$ and it's not even close.

that isn't to say that schools with weak or no football programs can't have good hoops teams. or that their hoops teams can't deliver revenue, but it pales in comparison to football. 'nova, Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier some years, Gonzaga, Butler, etc etc. but you'll never see Butler invited to the Big 10 or SEC because they don't care about how good the hoops program is, or that they made the NC game 2 years in a row.

so when someone asks about what programs bring the least to the table for the Big East conference as a whole, it's all about football. if the question was about which hoops teams suck the worst, then you could put TCU, USF on the list. but as far as any major conference is concerned, it's ALL about football.

If it was all about football, Oklahoma would be in another league right now, since they want nothing to do with the Big 12. They are one of the Top 5 football programs in history, and everyone is shrugging their shoulders, waiting to see what Texas does. Markets matter, a lot. Let's see if a Big East network gets picked up in Chicago, New York, DC or Philadelphia without Depaul, St. Johns, Georgetown or Villanova. Don't hold your breath.

 

[seanmc94]

If it was all about football, Oklahoma would be in another league right now, since they want nothing to do with the Big 12. They are one of the Top 5 football programs in history, and everyone is shrugging their shoulders, waiting to see what Texas does. Markets matter, a lot. Let's see if a Big East network gets picked up in Chicago, New York, DC or Philadelphia without Depaul, St. Johns, Georgetown or Villanova. Don't hold your breath.

Like it or not; football rules in today's NCAA. Texas footbal brings more money into the Big 12 in one weekend that Duke basketball does all season. TCU, SFU and Rutgers are all relevant b/c of football. As good as UCONNs hoop program is; without football they don't get a look from the ACC a little while back.

At the end of the day, sometime soon the football schools will form a power conference; the hoop only schools will match up with Xavier and a few of the other schools that get left out and that will be that. I don't think the 20 team superconference is a viable long term option. Wouldn't mind seeing the Jayhawks come to Providence.

 

[rw005]

I'll give you two.

DePaul and Providence.

 

[Yonick]

Very well said. UConn was 1 of the founding schools of the Big East. It is also worth noting it was Providence, St. John's, Georgetown and Syracuse that extended an invitation to UConn to join the BE in 1979. So much has changed over the years but because I am old school there is no way I would want Providence out. Most true basketball fans would like to see the rivalry between PC/UConn heat up and Cooley appears to be on his way to making that happen. UConn won the NIT 9 years after joining the BE.

No matter who was involved in inviting UConn into the Big East over 30 years ago, it should have no bearing on which direction UConn should decide as to which direction it should take in the future.
UConn has profited from it's membership in the BE. Perhaps UConn should show gratitude. But, over the past 30+ years, the BE has won 6 NC's, half of them won by UConn. Whatever decisions UConn makes on the BE's future, the other schools should listen. After all, UConn is far and away from the "throw in" school many considered us to be 30+ years ago. We are elite.
Should the BE wish to be mediocre, than listen to the mediocre schools. If the BE wishes to become elite at all levels, than listen to those successful schools, without consideration to those schools that keep the BE at a lower level. Hey, the successful schools know how to do it right.

 

[Drumguy]

Amazed with this comment. "other than history", SJU offers the biggest market in the US without and NYC competitors, SJU is also a top 8 Program in All time wins. Albeit, the last 20 years have been riddled with poor coaching decision, as it stands, SJU offers as much as any program can as a basketball school. Lavin has taken the exposure level to new heights and was plastered over the tv more than just about any coach last season, and recruiting wise is making SJU relevant again. SJU had a huge increase in ticket sales last year, and it should keep increasing steeply with a few more Garden games instead of on-campus games. The fact remains that even in the bad years, SJU attendance is higher than every team in the PAC-10 except Arizona. Seems the good years are coming back fast. I'd include SJU in any equation moving forward if you are to keep bball only schools. much more important overall than Notre Dame who offers little.

I guess my thought was that football schools have to stay in, otherwise SouthFL is outta here and into my 5. So of the bball schools I'd rather keep GT, Nova, and ND as they all have other sports to offer our olympic sport programs. SJU occasionally has men's soccer and nothing else. And 20 years of mediocrity and no football with nothing else to offer is not a selling point. Football is going to rule and Rutgers and UConn are the only college football teams in town for the NYC market.