Which BIg East program steps up?

[MU in MKE]

I think Creighton and Marquette have a ton of potential. I don’t see how Nebraska or Wisconsin impact those programs

If anything, the rivalries enhance the brands (for all 4 schools).

And in MU/WI case, they don't really go after the same kids so they rarely clash on recruitment. Although lately, the few times they do, Marquette usually wins the battle. The facilities, resources, athletic performance programs, nutrition programs, etc all generally all superior at MU despite WI being very top notch.

Even though Scooter's holy grail of having a medical school hasn't been a thing at Marquette since they spun their program off as the Medical College of WI a few decades ago, they still work very closely and have an elite athletic performance research program and other health and athletic programs that really pay dividends for athletics.

 

[Guapo]

If anything, the rivalries enhance the brands (for all 4 schools).

And in MU/WI case, they don't really go after the same kids so they rarely clash on recruitment. Although lately, the few times they do, Marquette usually wins the battle. The facilities, resources, athletic performance programs, nutrition programs, etc all generally all superior at MU despite WI being very top notch.

Even though Scooter's holy grail of having a medical school hasn't been a thing at Marquette since they spun their program off as the Medical College of WI a few decades ago, they still work very closely and have an elite athletic performance research program and other health and athletic programs that really pay dividends for athletics.

Yeah, especially MU-Wisconsin.

I think something that people here might have a hard time wrapping their heads around is that there are likely more people in Nebraska who care about Crieghton basketball than who care about Nebrasketball

 

[superjohn]

Jaquan Sanders decommits from St. John's, things seem a bit unstable there.

 

[MU in MKE]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

 

[HooperScooper]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

While I'd agree that this is good information to use, it doesn't tell the entire story. You have to dig into where programs spend money. For example, teams that play in arenas they don't own jack up the costs. Marquette plays all their home games at Fiserv Forum (home of the Bucks) and I'm sure they pay a lot to play there. UConn plays half their home games at an on-campus facility (Gampel Pavilion) and half at the XL Center in Hartford, where they pay to play there.

Where is this information you posted from? I'd be curious to dig through the line items of these expenses.

 

[Guapo]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

Yeah these numbers don’t seem correct. Furthermore, private schools don’t usually publish AD spending info. What is the source?

 

[MU in MKE]

Apologies, I meant to put the link. This is where I pulled the table from. Authors got original data from the Department of Higher Education.

Fun with Finances: Basketball Budgets — Three-Man-Weave


The point made regarding spend on arena's is absolutely valid. If you rent to play in a pro-arena, your expenses will instantly be higher. That being said, you're also playing in a pro arena.


You can double check those numbers against this one below. MidMajorMadness blog used the data from WSJ research to compile their own list... but it's already about 5 years old now so some programs are out of date (for example, see Houston)

How much does your school spend on its men’s basketball program?

 

[HooperScooper]

The point made regarding spend on arena's is absolutely valid. If you rent to play in a pro-arena, your expenses will instantly be higher. That being said, you're also playing in a pro arena.

Yes half our home games, as I pointed out in my post.

 

[Get a Job]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

Damn, UConn, Creighton and Butler really get a lot of bang for their buck*! Conversely, Marquette is terrible on a per-dollar basis*.

*if these numbers are accurate

 

[MU in MKE]

Yes half our home games, as I pointed out in my post.

That was a rhetorical "you" - not UConn or anyone else specifically.

 

[Storrs South]

Definitive podcast breaking down the entire conference (UConn begins at minute 95)

 

[HuskyHawk]

Villanova and Gonzaga are exceptions. The others are essentially one shot wonders who have their moments then return to earth. Raise your hand everyone who expects Loyola Chicago to make another trip to the Final Four this decade. VCU sort of followed the model. Loyola too. Have a successful coach for a few years then he’s off to a bigger program. The dirty little secret is the teams in the NEWBIE are subject to the same thing. Villanova is the exception now only because they have an older guy who has been there long term From original Big East days. It’s what happens when you get $5 million in media rights and the big boys get estimated $10-15.

Then you look at facilities and most NEWBIES are fighting Star Wars with World War II facilities. The list goes on.

Nah. I know your usual take on this but it isn't factual in this case. Creighton plays in a modern 18,000 seat arena in downtown Omaha, and they fill it. Attendance consistently better than Nebraska. Certainly Wisconsin has advantages over Marquette, but Marquette is in Milwaukee, and they play in a very new 18,000 plus arena. Many Big East teams, including UConn, play in large city center arenas that they don't have to fund, unlike an on campus football stadium. The cost of a D1 basketball team is so low, that CCSU, Fairfield, Sacred Heart and others manage it.

These aren't "one hit wonders" like Loyola Chicago last year (actually strong two years in a row), they can compete regularly. So can Georgetown, Xavier and others in the league. This isn't football, where you need 80 really good players, including 2nd and 3rd string QBs and RBs to compete. You just need 2 really good players and a handful of good players and you can win. I think there has been a shift to the SEC schools, but I don't think that does anything more than make them competitive, when the used to be the worst major conference in the sport. What we've seen is that the talent is being dispersed, including to Big East programs and yes, schools like Loyola Chicago. Ja Morant somehow ended up at Murray State. That kind of thing will continue to occur. The most critical skill for any college basketball coach staff is talent evaluation. Finding guys like James Bouknight.

 

[superjohn]

Definitive podcast breaking down the entire conference (UConn begins at minute 95)

Who are these guys? This is excellent, they're breaking down everything on these teams. I agree with their take on UConn, we are seriously being slept on nationally.

 

[Storrs South]

Who are these guys? This is excellent, they're breaking down everything on these teams. I agree with their take on UConn, we are seriously being slept on nationally.

Kevin Sweeney runs the CBB Central handle and works at Sports Illustrated. An excellent follow on Twitter and really knows his stuff on college hoops. Brad Cav is the co host and sounds like a PC fan but also really good insight from him as well.

 

[Guapo]

Nah. I know your usual take on this but it isn't factual in this case. Creighton plays in a modern 18,000 seat arena in downtown Omaha, and they fill it. Attendance consistently better than Nebraska. Certainly Wisconsin has advantages over Marquette, but Marquette is in Milwaukee, and they play in a very new 18,000 plus arena. Many Big East teams, including UConn, play in large city center arenas that they don't have to fund, unlike an on campus football stadium. The cost of a D1 basketball team is so low, that CCSU, Fairfield, Sacred Heart and others manage it.

These aren't "one hit wonders" like Loyola Chicago last year (actually strong two years in a row), they can compete regularly. So can Georgetown, Xavier and others in the league. This isn't football, where you need 80 really good players, including 2nd and 3rd string QBs and RBs to compete. You just need 2 really good players and a handful of good players and you can win. I think there has been a shift to the SEC schools, but I don't think that does anything more than make them competitive, when the used to be the worst major conference in the sport. What we've seen is that the talent is being dispersed, including to Big East programs and yes, schools like Loyola Chicago. Ja Morant somehow ended up at Murray State. That kind of thing will continue to occur. The most critical skill for any college basketball coach staff is talent evaluation. Finding guys like James Bouknight.

Good reply. Unfortunately it’s wasted on idiot trolls like Freescooter

 

[auror]

Kevin Sweeney runs the CBB Central handle and works at Sports Illustrated. An excellent follow on Twitter and really knows his stuff on college hoops. Brad Cav is the co host and sounds like a PC fan but also really good insight from him as well.

Sweeney did sound very knowledgeable. Cav sounded a bit like the guy at the bar with some facts and an individual viewpoint, but not able to grasp other people's arguments. But he's on high UConn, so he's clearly the more astute of the two.

 

[freescooter]

Marquette, Creighton…even Xavier and Butler. If it is so easy, how come Marquette hasnt won a title since 1977 and hasn’t been to an Elite 8 in the NEWBIE era, or a Final Four in about 20 years. They have had nearly fifty years to re-establish themselves as a major program. Seems like they might have done a little better than 1 Final Four 30 years after their title. All those fans and everything. Butler has been fine nothing more since losing to UConn in the Final Four. Steven’s was a brilliant coach. He left and they returned to being fine. Creighton is a limited program. They are fine. They got to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 1974, which is good I guess. Xavier has been to the Elite 8 3 times, but widely spaced. Lost all to a lower seed. And their coach left for a higher paying job at the scummiest program in the country, that was banned from the tournament when he arrived.

Becoming a major national program requires more than having a high budget and lots of fans. You need a top coach, facilities and the coach needs to stay for the long term. If Jim Calhoun had left after the dream season, how many think UConn would have become UConn? Anyone? Bueller? If Jay Wright left Villanova after going to the Final Four in 2009, do they win in 2016 and 2018? Probably not In both cases. If UConn returns to the Final Four and a P5 program comes calling , you think Hurley isn’t going to listen? Mr “I want to be an NBA coach?” Please. He might not go to Ol’ Miss, but he’d go to the Big 10 or an ACC program in a heartbeat. Because they would absolutely pay him more than we can.

The NEWBIE is a solid conference. Lots of pretty good teams but only 1 elite one. Nobody is challenging for national championships, though. None have with @ny consistency except Villanova. It ain’t the ACC or the Big or the SEC. Its a step below that.

 

[MJ1]

The Big 10 hasn’t won a National Championship in 22 years. Nova and UConn have won multiple in that span. Two top teams and a very respectable cast of Big East teams makes the league as competitive as the other Power 5 leagues.

 

[superjohn]

Marquette, Creighton…even Xavier and Butler. If it is so easy, how come Marquette hasnt won a title since 1977 and hasn’t been to an Elite 8 in the NEWBIE era, or a Final Four in about 20 years. They have had nearly fifty years to re-establish themselves as a major program. Seems like they might have done a little better than 1 Final Four 30 years after their title. All those fans and everything. Butler has been fine nothing more since losing to UConn in the Final Four. Steven’s was a brilliant coach. He left and they returned to being fine. Creighton is a limited program. They are fine. They got to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 1974, which is good I guess. Xavier has been to the Elite 8 3 times, but widely spaced. Lost all to a lower seed. And their coach left for a higher paying job at the scummiest program in the country, that was banned from the tournament when he arrived.

Becoming a major national program requires more than having a high budget and lots of fans. You need a top coach, facilities and the coach needs to stay for the long term. If Jim Calhoun had left after the dream season, how many think UConn would have become UConn? Anyone? Bueller? If Jay Wright left Villanova after going to the Final Four in 2009, do they win in 2016 and 2018? Probably not In both cases. If UConn returns to the Final Four and a P5 program comes calling , you think Hurley isn’t going to listen? Mr “I want to be an NBA coach?” Please. He might not go to Ol’ Miss, but he’d go to the Big 10 or an ACC program in a heartbeat. Because they would absolutely pay him more than we can.

The NEWBIE is a solid conference. Lots of pretty good teams but only 1 elite one. Nobody is challenging for national championships, though. None have with @ny consistency except Villanova. It ain’t the ACC or the Big or the SEC. Its a step below that.

If Marquette is so good, why haven't they won a national title since 1977?

Why hasn't Gonzaga ever won a national championship? Why hasn't Indiana won one since 1987? why hasn't the entire Big 10 won one since 2000? Why have most programs never won one? Why have only 15 programs since the tournament started in 1937 won more than one national championship? Why does an old man use this forum to get his rocks off by pretending to be the biggest moron on the internet day after day?

 

[Guapo]

Marquette, Creighton…even Xavier and Butler. If it is so easy, how come Marquette hasnt won a title since 1977 and hasn’t been to an Elite 8 in the NEWBIE era, or a Final Four in about 20 years. They have had nearly fifty years to re-establish themselves as a major program. Seems like they might have done a little better than 1 Final Four 30 years after their title. All those fans and everything. Butler has been fine nothing more since losing to UConn in the Final Four. Steven’s was a brilliant coach. He left and they returned to being fine. Creighton is a limited program. They are fine. They got to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 1974, which is good I guess. Xavier has been to the Elite 8 3 times, but widely spaced. Lost all to a lower seed. And their coach left for a higher paying job at the scummiest program in the country, that was banned from the tournament when he arrived.

Becoming a major national program requires more than having a high budget and lots of fans. You need a top coach, facilities and the coach needs to stay for the long term. If Jim Calhoun had left after the dream season, how many think UConn would have become UConn? Anyone? Bueller? If Jay Wright left Villanova after going to the Final Four in 2009, do they win in 2016 and 2018? Probably not In both cases. If UConn returns to the Final Four and a P5 program comes calling , you think Hurley isn’t going to listen? Mr “I want to be an NBA coach?” Please. He might not go to Ol’ Miss, but he’d go to the Big 10 or an ACC program in a heartbeat. Because they would absolutely pay him more than we can.

The NEWBIE is a solid conference. Lots of pretty good teams but only 1 elite one. Nobody is challenging for national championships, though. None have with @ny consistency except Villanova. It ain’t the ACC or the Big or the SEC. Its a step below that.

If we can get you to acknowledge that the Big East is no worse than the 4th best conference, I’ll take that.

Also, why didn’t Hurley go to Pitt?

 

[UCSouth]

If Marquette is so good, why haven't they won a national title since 1977?

Why hasn't Gonzaga ever won a national championship? Why hasn't Indiana won one since 1987? why hasn't the entire Big 10 won one since 2000? Why have most programs never won one? Why have only 15 programs since the tournament started in 1937 won more than one national championship? Why does an old man use this forum to get his rocks off by pretending to be the biggest moron on the internet day after day?

He's definitely not pretending. He is the biggest moron.

 

[freescooter]

He's definitely not pretending. He is the biggest moron.

None of these teams, not a single one, is more than marginally relevant on the national scene. Other than Villanova, nobody is picking a NEWBIE to win it all come March. It is fine. A solid league. But Marquette has had 50 years to become a national power. Our Marquette fanboy loves to cite all sorts of statistics to buttress his case. But how many Final Fours have they been to since the NEWBIE started? How many Elite 8s or Sweet 16s? Yet somehow they are going to step up and be the next Duke. They had a brief run 2011-13, in the real Big East, but what happened? Buzz left for greener pastures. And as I said, you need to be able to keep your coach. Because unless you’re Duke or UNC or Kansas, replacing him is a crapshoot. Even there it is, but they won’t wait 5 years for results.

Becoming a major program from the NEWBIE is hard. It is hard from any conference, but when your conference schedule is littered with average teams, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul* and the rest it is even more difficult. Here’s what I’m talking about. In the NEWBIE you can be ranked in the top 20-25 and you’ll likely be first or second place in the league. Basically it’s a league of programs who consider being ranked and getting to the Tournament to be success. National Programs want to win, not just show up. Of course it doesn’t mean they will win. Gonzaga shows that. But they build teams year to year with that in mind.
* Caution. May contain basketball like product.

 

[UCSouth]

None of these teams, not a single one, is more than marginally relevant on the national scene. Other than Villanova, nobody is picking a NEWBIE to win it all come March. It is fine. A solid league. But Marquette has had 50 years to become a national power. Our Marquette fanboy loves to cite all sorts of statistics to buttress his case. But how many Final Fours have they been to since the NEWBIE started? How many Elite 8s or Sweet 16s? Yet somehow they are going to step up and be the next Duke. They had a brief run 2011-13, in the real Big East, but what happened? Buzz left for greener pastures. And as I said, you need to be able to keep your coach. Because unless you’re Duke or UNC or Kansas, replacing him is a crapshoot. Even there it is, but they won’t wait 5 years for results.

Becoming a major program from the NEWBIE is hard. It is hard from any conference, but when your conference schedule is littered with average teams, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul* and the rest it is even more difficult. Here’s what I’m talking about. In the NEWBIE you can be ranked in the top 20-25 and you’ll likely be first or second place in the league. Basically it’s a league of programs who consider being ranked and getting to the Tournament to be success. National Programs want to win, not just show up. Of course it doesn’t mean they will win. Gonzaga shows that. But they build teams year to year with that in mind.
* Caution. May contain basketball like product.

Why does it bother you so much that, regardless of what you may think or even care, UCONN always has been and always will be a Basketball school? Football may drive the bus, but unfortunately all of the tires are flat. So do us all, on the BB board, a favor and take your bluster and go blow up some tires.

 

[MU in MKE]

None of these teams, not a single one, is more than marginally relevant on the national scene. Other than Villanova, nobody is picking a NEWBIE to win it all come March. It is fine. A solid league. But Marquette has had 50 years to become a national power. Our Marquette fanboy loves to cite all sorts of statistics to buttress his case. But how many Final Fours have they been to since the NEWBIE started? How many Elite 8s or Sweet 16s? Yet somehow they are going to step up and be the next Duke. They had a brief run 2011-13, in the real Big East, but what happened? Buzz left for greener pastures. And as I said, you need to be able to keep your coach. Because unless you’re Duke or UNC or Kansas, replacing him is a crapshoot. Even there it is, but they won’t wait 5 years for results.

Becoming a major program from the NEWBIE is hard. It is hard from any conference, but when your conference schedule is littered with average teams, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul* and the rest it is even more difficult. Here’s what I’m talking about. In the NEWBIE you can be ranked in the top 20-25 and you’ll likely be first or second place in the league. Basically it’s a league of programs who consider being ranked and getting to the Tournament to be success. National Programs want to win, not just show up. Of course it doesn’t mean they will win. Gonzaga shows that. But they build teams year to year with that in mind.
* Caution. May contain basketball like product.

At this point, I'm not really sure what you define as a "major" program anymore as we've pretty much exhausted all your moving goalposts. I think we're down to Nova, UConn, Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, and Gonzaga as the only major programs in existence anymore?

That being said, I really think we've made progress here now that you've agreed the BE is a top 4 conference at minimum. And I totally agree with you, being a "major" program requires both coaching and facilities (I'd also include recruiting, but that comes from a combination of the first two). That is why I believe Creighton and Marquette can step up to consistently run at the top of the conference. Creighton has the coach and are working to build their resources in order to have the facilities. Meanwhile, Marquette has the facilities, but needs the long term coach to make it happen. Buzz didn't "leave for greener pastures" other than that he was told to clean up his program or the AD was going to show him those pastures himself... so Buzz left instead of doing that. Wojo just never got traction and only did well just enough to stick around for 7 years (aka, almost the entire time the "new" BE existed).

So I guess we're in agreement, Creighton and Marquette have the most potential!





Listen, it’s great you have an opinion about the BE. You’re entitled to that. But when you openly comment about it and you’re proven wrong time and time again, you should probably just stop. Follow my lead in posting, I don’t comment on threads specific to this year’s team because I don’t know as much about them as 90% of the posters here. Instead, I sit back and I read the threads and I learn something and keep my posts to mostly OT threads and BE threads. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but maybe you should follow suit on any discussion about the conference or anything CBB related and sit back and learn while keeping your posts to subjects you know more about like FB?

 

[NJHoops]

I would love for it to be Georgetown. Ewing is a really easy guy for me to root for, but I wish he was further ahead than he is heading into year 5. That 26-44 conference record is a rough one.

Marquette and Smart seem like a perfect match. I think he’ll get back to his style with recruits that will play it and have a lot of success.

 

[freescooter]

LOL. Yeah Wojo was there for 7 years of mediocrity. At a major power he would have been out the door after year 4 maybe sooner. Somehow I don’t buy your story about Buzz, but hey whatever let’s you think you’re big time. None of these programs are big time. Villanova won 2 titles from the NEWBIE. Since 2014 there have been 5 different SEC team, 3 different Big 10, 3 different ACC, 4 different Big 12 teams and 2 different PAC 12 teams in the final four. Heck, the ACC, Big 10 and SEC have all had 2 teams in a single year. Sorry but that speaks to the depth of those conferences. Multiple very good teams who can compete for a championship. The NEWBIE has no such depth. If Villanova flames out nobody else has shown they can pick up the torch. A bunch of pretty good teams, play good games against each other, but there aren’t any other elite teams.

I get it. You are a NEWBIE fanboy and want to think your team is elite. It isn’t. And given all the headwinds it and the NEWBIE face, it likely won’t be. Could it pull off a LoyolaChicago or a VCU run some day? Sure. So could Fairfield I suppose. But elite? Not likely chummy.

Now your turn to spout all sorts of winning % and RPI and other stuff. I had a coach who used to start the season with a question: Who finished second in the American League last year?

As far as major powers, like the Supreme Court said about , I can’t define it but I Know it when I see it. And it ain’t Marquette. Regarding UConn’s status, I have said several times that I worry that they are on they are very much in danger of becoming Indiana, and one who used to get legacy bids. A once powerful program that has become an afterthought. Joining the NEWBIE kind of suggests we don’t care if that happens. But we have MSG so who cares about great teams. Mediocre teams can play exciting games against each other, too.

 

[Zissou]

LOL. Yeah Wojo was there for 7 years of mediocrity. At a major power he would have been out the door after year 4 maybe sooner. Somehow I don’t buy your story about Buzz, but hey whatever let’s you think you’re big time. None of these programs are big time. Villanova won 2 titles from the NEWBIE. Since 2014 there have been 5 different SEC team, 3 different Big 10, 3 different ACC, 4 different Big 12 teams and 2 different PAC 12 teams in the final four. Heck, the ACC, Big 10 and SEC have all had 2 teams in a single year. Sorry but that speaks to the depth of those conferences. Multiple very good teams who can compete for a championship. The NEWBIE has no such depth. If Villanova flames out nobody else has shown they can pick up the torch. A bunch of pretty good teams, play good games against each other, but there aren’t any other elite teams.

I get it. You are a NEWBIE fanboy and want to think your team is elite. It isn’t. And given all the headwinds it and the NEWBIE face, it likely won’t be. Could it pull off a LoyolaChicago or a VCU run some day? Sure. So could Fairfield I suppose. But elite? Not likely chummy.

Now your turn to spout all sorts of winning % and RPI and other stuff. I had a coach who used to start the season with a question: Who finished second in the American League last year?

As far as major powers, like the Supreme Court said about , I can’t define it but I Know it when I see it. And it ain’t Marquette. Regarding UConn’s status, I have said several times that I worry that they are on they are very much in danger of becoming Indiana, and one who used to get legacy bids. A once powerful program that has become an afterthought. Joining the NEWBIE kind of suggests we don’t care if that happens. But we have MSG so who cares about great teams. Mediocre teams can play exciting games against each other, too.

Lol. What programs are you ranking above Nova since 2014?

You do know the NCAA tournament structure, right? Nova has to buzz through the Big 12, the ACC, and the Big Ten to win those titles. It’s not like you win your conference and you are anointed national champion.

When was the last Big Ten title?

You spout final fours to measure conference excellence and then you dismiss success unless you win it all with asking “Who finished 2nd in the American League last year?” That would literally be the final four of baseball.

I’d agree Marquette isn’t a blue blood, but that’s a short list. It’s not a program with asterisks on its seasons either. Regardless, it has a title in its history, it’s a contender, and it has a very good name coach.

You seem to also discount Butler’s and UConn’s final four histories, and UConn’s championships. And Georgetown went to a final four in 2007.

Who is Big Time big enough for you?

The Big East is a top 2-4 conference in any reasonable discussion. That’s not high level enough for you? Where do you think UConn belongs? Where do you think the other Flagship universities in New England belong?

 

[MU in MKE]

LOL. Yeah Wojo was there for 7 years of mediocrity. At a major power he would have been out the door after year 4 maybe sooner. Somehow I don’t buy your story about Buzz, but hey whatever let’s you think you’re big time. None of these programs are big time. Villanova won 2 titles from the NEWBIE. Since 2014 there have been 5 different SEC team, 3 different Big 10, 3 different ACC, 4 different Big 12 teams and 2 different PAC 12 teams in the final four. Heck, the ACC, Big 10 and SEC have all had 2 teams in a single year. Sorry but that speaks to the depth of those conferences. Multiple very good teams who can compete for a championship. The NEWBIE has no such depth. If Villanova flames out nobody else has shown they can pick up the torch. A bunch of pretty good teams, play good games against each other, but there aren’t any other elite teams.

I get it. You are a NEWBIE fanboy and want to think your team is elite. It isn’t. And given all the headwinds it and the NEWBIE face, it likely won’t be. Could it pull off a LoyolaChicago or a VCU run some day? Sure. So could Fairfield I suppose. But elite? Not likely chummy.

Now your turn to spout all sorts of winning % and RPI and other stuff. I had a coach who used to start the season with a question: Who finished second in the American League last year?

As far as major powers, like the Supreme Court said about , I can’t define it but I Know it when I see it. And it ain’t Marquette. Regarding UConn’s status, I have said several times that I worry that they are on they are very much in danger of becoming Indiana, and one who used to get legacy bids. A once powerful program that has become an afterthought. Joining the NEWBIE kind of suggests we don’t care if that happens. But we have MSG so who cares about great teams. Mediocre teams can play exciting games against each other, too.

So to sum up:

1. You admit you don't know much about CBB and only watch in March and final fours are your only criteria for what makes a good program (this time)
2. You refuse to listen to facts and go only on your gut feeling. Hence your dislike of my providing real world data and factual information such as Buzz Williams departure from MU and hard analytics like actual wins or team metrics regarding what a good team or conference actually is
3. You are losing the argument so you pick a new argument, in this case which programs aren't elite right now, despite that not being the topic of the thread. Which, if that's the conversation you want to have, cool here it is: I agree, Marquette should have fired Wojo earlier. Ask most MU fans and they'd say the same thing. The AD kept him around because he ran a clean program and recruited at a high level which always kept their hopes up and enough fans in the seats... to the long term detriment of the program. But Texas must not be a good program either, since they kept Shaka for 6 years despite a similar tourney record. What a mediocre school, am I right?


Quit being such a Debbie downer on every conference related thread. Can you just give us an opinion on which program, if you had to pick one, is most likely to step up? That's kinda what the original question was. I'm curious what your answer would be.

 

[Guapo]

Stop beating up on @freescooter y’all, it’s just mean at this point. He clearly someone with low cognitive function.

 

[HooperScooper]

So to sum up:

1. You admit you don't know much about CBB and only watch in March and final fours are your only criteria for what makes a good program (this time)
2. You refuse to listen to facts and go only on your gut feeling. Hence your dislike of my providing real world data and factual information such as Buzz Williams departure from MU and hard analytics like actual wins or team metrics regarding what a good team or conference actually is
3. You are losing the argument so you pick a new argument, in this case which programs aren't elite right now, despite that not being the topic of the thread. Which, if that's the conversation you want to have, cool here it is: I agree, Marquette should have fired Wojo earlier. Ask most MU fans and they'd say the same thing. The AD kept him around because he ran a clean program and recruited at a high level which always kept their hopes up and enough fans in the seats... to the long term detriment of the program. But Texas must not be a good program either, since they kept Shaka for 6 years despite a similar tourney record. What a mediocre school, am I right?


Quit being such a Debbie downer on every conference related thread. Can you just give us an opinion on which program, if you had to pick one, is most likely to step up? That's kinda what the original question was. I'm curious what your answer would be.

I'm going to give you some Boneyard advice. Don't bother arguing with him. Many people on here put him on ignore or just don't read his posts. You ever argue with a 4 year old? Yeah, same thing here. It's just not worth the effort.