Which BIg East program steps up?

[Guapo]

I think Creighton and Marquette have a ton of potential. I don’t see how Nebraska or Wisconsin impact those programs

 

[superjohn]

Some fair points, but when was the last time Nebraska did anything notable in basketball? Creighton has overtaken them, objectively, and in the eyes of national media.

And the beauty of college basketball is that if the stars align -- a la Villanova or Gonzaga, or to a far lesser degree a program like VCU -- the non-FBS college can achieve elite status.

That's why schools like Marquette and Georgetown have a fighting chance.

I've honestly thought Creighton could become like the Zags. They have a rabid fanbase, always top 10 or top 5 in attendance and their recruiting is really on the upswing. McDermott stepped in it and it 100% cost him Ty Ty Washington decommitting and probably cost him Christian BIshop transferring to Texas but he weathered the storm and still has a fantastic class. They should be very good for years to come.

 

[freescooter]

Some fair points, but when was the last time Nebraska did anything notable in basketball? Creighton has overtaken them, objectively, and in the eyes of national media.

And the beauty of college basketball is that if the stars align -- a la Villanova or Gonzaga, or to a far lesser degree a program like VCU -- the non-FBS college can achieve elite status.

That's why schools like Marquette and Georgetown have a fighting chance.

Villanova and Gonzaga are exceptions. The others are essentially one shot wonders who have their moments then return to earth. Raise your hand everyone who expects Loyola Chicago to make another trip to the Final Four this decade. VCU sort of followed the model. Loyola too. Have a successful coach for a few years then he’s off to a bigger program. The dirty little secret is the teams in the NEWBIE are subject to the same thing. Villanova is the exception now only because they have an older guy who has been there long term From original Big East days. It’s what happens when you get $5 million in media rights and the big boys get estimated $10-15.

Then you look at facilities and most NEWBIES are fighting Star Wars with World War II facilities. The list goes on.

 

[Slasher]

Georgetown and Marquette are my choices. They have the history, support and name cachet to return to glory at some point. The next step down is Creighton and Butler and maybe St Johns.

 

[MU in MKE]

Some fair points, but when was the last time Nebraska did anything notable in basketball? Creighton has overtaken them, objectively, and in the eyes of national media.

And the beauty of college basketball is that if the stars align -- a la Villanova or Gonzaga, or to a far lesser degree a program like VCU -- the non-FBS college can achieve elite status.

That's why schools like Marquette and Georgetown have a fighting chance.

Creighton definitely has the potential and I don't think McDermott goes anywhere regardless of how successful he becomes. I think, despite his mistake last year that will slow it down a bit, he has the program on an upward trajectory with unlimited potential. It's just a matter of how much of that potential is fulfilled.

Marquette is not generally a stepping stone school... you don't get much bigger without going to a blueblood or top of the top tier program (like Tom Crean when he went to Indiana) or you don't leave unless you're pushed out (like buzz Williams after sexual assault coverups and other shady business that the school won't tolerate). Wojo would have made a career out of it if he got traction. Shaka is likely to stay too if he can build his culture and see success... it's just a good solid fit and not many places are a step up in basketball only.

 

[MU in MKE]

I think Creighton and Marquette have a ton of potential. I don’t see how Nebraska or Wisconsin impact those programs

If anything, the rivalries enhance the brands (for all 4 schools).

And in MU/WI case, they don't really go after the same kids so they rarely clash on recruitment. Although lately, the few times they do, Marquette usually wins the battle. The facilities, resources, athletic performance programs, nutrition programs, etc all generally all superior at MU despite WI being very top notch.

Even though Scooter's holy grail of having a medical school hasn't been a thing at Marquette since they spun their program off as the Medical College of WI a few decades ago, they still work very closely and have an elite athletic performance research program and other health and athletic programs that really pay dividends for athletics.

 

[Guapo]

If anything, the rivalries enhance the brands (for all 4 schools).

And in MU/WI case, they don't really go after the same kids so they rarely clash on recruitment. Although lately, the few times they do, Marquette usually wins the battle. The facilities, resources, athletic performance programs, nutrition programs, etc all generally all superior at MU despite WI being very top notch.

Even though Scooter's holy grail of having a medical school hasn't been a thing at Marquette since they spun their program off as the Medical College of WI a few decades ago, they still work very closely and have an elite athletic performance research program and other health and athletic programs that really pay dividends for athletics.

Yeah, especially MU-Wisconsin.

I think something that people here might have a hard time wrapping their heads around is that there are likely more people in Nebraska who care about Crieghton basketball than who care about Nebrasketball

 

[superjohn]

Jaquan Sanders decommits from St. John's, things seem a bit unstable there.

 

[MU in MKE]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

 

[HooperScooper]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

While I'd agree that this is good information to use, it doesn't tell the entire story. You have to dig into where programs spend money. For example, teams that play in arenas they don't own jack up the costs. Marquette plays all their home games at Fiserv Forum (home of the Bucks) and I'm sure they pay a lot to play there. UConn plays half their home games at an on-campus facility (Gampel Pavilion) and half at the XL Center in Hartford, where they pay to play there.

Where is this information you posted from? I'd be curious to dig through the line items of these expenses.

 

[Guapo]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

Yeah these numbers don’t seem correct. Furthermore, private schools don’t usually publish AD spending info. What is the source?

 

[MU in MKE]

Apologies, I meant to put the link. This is where I pulled the table from. Authors got original data from the Department of Higher Education.

Fun with Finances: Basketball Budgets — Three-Man-Weave


The point made regarding spend on arena's is absolutely valid. If you rent to play in a pro-arena, your expenses will instantly be higher. That being said, you're also playing in a pro arena.


You can double check those numbers against this one below. MidMajorMadness blog used the data from WSJ research to compile their own list... but it's already about 5 years old now so some programs are out of date (for example, see Houston)

How much does your school spend on its men’s basketball program?

 

[HooperScooper]

The point made regarding spend on arena's is absolutely valid. If you rent to play in a pro-arena, your expenses will instantly be higher. That being said, you're also playing in a pro arena.

Yes half our home games, as I pointed out in my post.

 

[Get a Job]

I'm not trying to take over this thread... but I had an after thought. There's an easy way to end this conversation. That is, by using the below chart. Total spend by program. This should give a good indication of who has potential (with a few caveats like negative poitns for Providence... sorry, too many hurdles with location, recruiting competition, etc... and positive points for UConn that has the Natty's and a national bball brand).

Nat. Rank	Team	Conf	EXPENSE_MEN_Bskball
8​	Marquette	Big East	14,979,149
10​	Villanova	Big East	14,428,932
12​	Georgetown	Big East	13,573,946
20​	Providence	Big East	11,117,186
34​	St. John's	Big East	10,028,677
41​	Uconn	Big East	9,325,922
51​	Creighton	Big East	8,590,055
68​	Seton Hall	Big East	7,506,127
73​	Xavier	Big East	7,406,374
80​	DePaul	Big East	6,793,520
90​	Butler	Big East	5,760,815

Simply put... if you have the best facilities, most fans, can afford to send your coaches on recruiting trips nation wide on private jets, etc. your odds are just better. The main reason I include Creighton in the discussion is because they've made HUGE steps up every year since joining the BE (they used to be lower than Butler's spend) Just need to keep that momentum.

Damn, UConn, Creighton and Butler really get a lot of bang for their buck*! Conversely, Marquette is terrible on a per-dollar basis*.

*if these numbers are accurate

 

[MU in MKE]

Yes half our home games, as I pointed out in my post.

That was a rhetorical "you" - not UConn or anyone else specifically.

 

[Storrs South]

Definitive podcast breaking down the entire conference (UConn begins at minute 95)

 

[HuskyHawk]

Villanova and Gonzaga are exceptions. The others are essentially one shot wonders who have their moments then return to earth. Raise your hand everyone who expects Loyola Chicago to make another trip to the Final Four this decade. VCU sort of followed the model. Loyola too. Have a successful coach for a few years then he’s off to a bigger program. The dirty little secret is the teams in the NEWBIE are subject to the same thing. Villanova is the exception now only because they have an older guy who has been there long term From original Big East days. It’s what happens when you get $5 million in media rights and the big boys get estimated $10-15.

Then you look at facilities and most NEWBIES are fighting Star Wars with World War II facilities. The list goes on.

Nah. I know your usual take on this but it isn't factual in this case. Creighton plays in a modern 18,000 seat arena in downtown Omaha, and they fill it. Attendance consistently better than Nebraska. Certainly Wisconsin has advantages over Marquette, but Marquette is in Milwaukee, and they play in a very new 18,000 plus arena. Many Big East teams, including UConn, play in large city center arenas that they don't have to fund, unlike an on campus football stadium. The cost of a D1 basketball team is so low, that CCSU, Fairfield, Sacred Heart and others manage it.

These aren't "one hit wonders" like Loyola Chicago last year (actually strong two years in a row), they can compete regularly. So can Georgetown, Xavier and others in the league. This isn't football, where you need 80 really good players, including 2nd and 3rd string QBs and RBs to compete. You just need 2 really good players and a handful of good players and you can win. I think there has been a shift to the SEC schools, but I don't think that does anything more than make them competitive, when the used to be the worst major conference in the sport. What we've seen is that the talent is being dispersed, including to Big East programs and yes, schools like Loyola Chicago. Ja Morant somehow ended up at Murray State. That kind of thing will continue to occur. The most critical skill for any college basketball coach staff is talent evaluation. Finding guys like James Bouknight.

 

[superjohn]

Definitive podcast breaking down the entire conference (UConn begins at minute 95)

Who are these guys? This is excellent, they're breaking down everything on these teams. I agree with their take on UConn, we are seriously being slept on nationally.

 

[Storrs South]

Who are these guys? This is excellent, they're breaking down everything on these teams. I agree with their take on UConn, we are seriously being slept on nationally.

Kevin Sweeney runs the CBB Central handle and works at Sports Illustrated. An excellent follow on Twitter and really knows his stuff on college hoops. Brad Cav is the co host and sounds like a PC fan but also really good insight from him as well.

 

[Guapo]

Nah. I know your usual take on this but it isn't factual in this case. Creighton plays in a modern 18,000 seat arena in downtown Omaha, and they fill it. Attendance consistently better than Nebraska. Certainly Wisconsin has advantages over Marquette, but Marquette is in Milwaukee, and they play in a very new 18,000 plus arena. Many Big East teams, including UConn, play in large city center arenas that they don't have to fund, unlike an on campus football stadium. The cost of a D1 basketball team is so low, that CCSU, Fairfield, Sacred Heart and others manage it.

These aren't "one hit wonders" like Loyola Chicago last year (actually strong two years in a row), they can compete regularly. So can Georgetown, Xavier and others in the league. This isn't football, where you need 80 really good players, including 2nd and 3rd string QBs and RBs to compete. You just need 2 really good players and a handful of good players and you can win. I think there has been a shift to the SEC schools, but I don't think that does anything more than make them competitive, when the used to be the worst major conference in the sport. What we've seen is that the talent is being dispersed, including to Big East programs and yes, schools like Loyola Chicago. Ja Morant somehow ended up at Murray State. That kind of thing will continue to occur. The most critical skill for any college basketball coach staff is talent evaluation. Finding guys like James Bouknight.

Good reply. Unfortunately it’s wasted on idiot trolls like Freescooter

 

[auror]

Kevin Sweeney runs the CBB Central handle and works at Sports Illustrated. An excellent follow on Twitter and really knows his stuff on college hoops. Brad Cav is the co host and sounds like a PC fan but also really good insight from him as well.

Sweeney did sound very knowledgeable. Cav sounded a bit like the guy at the bar with some facts and an individual viewpoint, but not able to grasp other people's arguments. But he's on high UConn, so he's clearly the more astute of the two.

 

[freescooter]

Marquette, Creighton…even Xavier and Butler. If it is so easy, how come Marquette hasnt won a title since 1977 and hasn’t been to an Elite 8 in the NEWBIE era, or a Final Four in about 20 years. They have had nearly fifty years to re-establish themselves as a major program. Seems like they might have done a little better than 1 Final Four 30 years after their title. All those fans and everything. Butler has been fine nothing more since losing to UConn in the Final Four. Steven’s was a brilliant coach. He left and they returned to being fine. Creighton is a limited program. They are fine. They got to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 1974, which is good I guess. Xavier has been to the Elite 8 3 times, but widely spaced. Lost all to a lower seed. And their coach left for a higher paying job at the scummiest program in the country, that was banned from the tournament when he arrived.

Becoming a major national program requires more than having a high budget and lots of fans. You need a top coach, facilities and the coach needs to stay for the long term. If Jim Calhoun had left after the dream season, how many think UConn would have become UConn? Anyone? Bueller? If Jay Wright left Villanova after going to the Final Four in 2009, do they win in 2016 and 2018? Probably not In both cases. If UConn returns to the Final Four and a P5 program comes calling , you think Hurley isn’t going to listen? Mr “I want to be an NBA coach?” Please. He might not go to Ol’ Miss, but he’d go to the Big 10 or an ACC program in a heartbeat. Because they would absolutely pay him more than we can.

The NEWBIE is a solid conference. Lots of pretty good teams but only 1 elite one. Nobody is challenging for national championships, though. None have with @ny consistency except Villanova. It ain’t the ACC or the Big or the SEC. Its a step below that.

 

[MJ1]

The Big 10 hasn’t won a National Championship in 22 years. Nova and UConn have won multiple in that span. Two top teams and a very respectable cast of Big East teams makes the league as competitive as the other Power 5 leagues.

 

[superjohn]

Marquette, Creighton…even Xavier and Butler. If it is so easy, how come Marquette hasnt won a title since 1977 and hasn’t been to an Elite 8 in the NEWBIE era, or a Final Four in about 20 years. They have had nearly fifty years to re-establish themselves as a major program. Seems like they might have done a little better than 1 Final Four 30 years after their title. All those fans and everything. Butler has been fine nothing more since losing to UConn in the Final Four. Steven’s was a brilliant coach. He left and they returned to being fine. Creighton is a limited program. They are fine. They got to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 1974, which is good I guess. Xavier has been to the Elite 8 3 times, but widely spaced. Lost all to a lower seed. And their coach left for a higher paying job at the scummiest program in the country, that was banned from the tournament when he arrived.

Becoming a major national program requires more than having a high budget and lots of fans. You need a top coach, facilities and the coach needs to stay for the long term. If Jim Calhoun had left after the dream season, how many think UConn would have become UConn? Anyone? Bueller? If Jay Wright left Villanova after going to the Final Four in 2009, do they win in 2016 and 2018? Probably not In both cases. If UConn returns to the Final Four and a P5 program comes calling , you think Hurley isn’t going to listen? Mr “I want to be an NBA coach?” Please. He might not go to Ol’ Miss, but he’d go to the Big 10 or an ACC program in a heartbeat. Because they would absolutely pay him more than we can.

The NEWBIE is a solid conference. Lots of pretty good teams but only 1 elite one. Nobody is challenging for national championships, though. None have with @ny consistency except Villanova. It ain’t the ACC or the Big or the SEC. Its a step below that.

If Marquette is so good, why haven't they won a national title since 1977?

Why hasn't Gonzaga ever won a national championship? Why hasn't Indiana won one since 1987? why hasn't the entire Big 10 won one since 2000? Why have most programs never won one? Why have only 15 programs since the tournament started in 1937 won more than one national championship? Why does an old man use this forum to get his rocks off by pretending to be the biggest moron on the internet day after day?

 

[Guapo]

Marquette, Creighton…even Xavier and Butler. If it is so easy, how come Marquette hasnt won a title since 1977 and hasn’t been to an Elite 8 in the NEWBIE era, or a Final Four in about 20 years. They have had nearly fifty years to re-establish themselves as a major program. Seems like they might have done a little better than 1 Final Four 30 years after their title. All those fans and everything. Butler has been fine nothing more since losing to UConn in the Final Four. Steven’s was a brilliant coach. He left and they returned to being fine. Creighton is a limited program. They are fine. They got to the Sweet 16 for the first time since 1974, which is good I guess. Xavier has been to the Elite 8 3 times, but widely spaced. Lost all to a lower seed. And their coach left for a higher paying job at the scummiest program in the country, that was banned from the tournament when he arrived.

Becoming a major national program requires more than having a high budget and lots of fans. You need a top coach, facilities and the coach needs to stay for the long term. If Jim Calhoun had left after the dream season, how many think UConn would have become UConn? Anyone? Bueller? If Jay Wright left Villanova after going to the Final Four in 2009, do they win in 2016 and 2018? Probably not In both cases. If UConn returns to the Final Four and a P5 program comes calling , you think Hurley isn’t going to listen? Mr “I want to be an NBA coach?” Please. He might not go to Ol’ Miss, but he’d go to the Big 10 or an ACC program in a heartbeat. Because they would absolutely pay him more than we can.

The NEWBIE is a solid conference. Lots of pretty good teams but only 1 elite one. Nobody is challenging for national championships, though. None have with @ny consistency except Villanova. It ain’t the ACC or the Big or the SEC. Its a step below that.

If we can get you to acknowledge that the Big East is no worse than the 4th best conference, I’ll take that.

Also, why didn’t Hurley go to Pitt?