Which BIg East program steps up?

[UCSouth]

If Marquette is so good, why haven't they won a national title since 1977?

Why hasn't Gonzaga ever won a national championship? Why hasn't Indiana won one since 1987? why hasn't the entire Big 10 won one since 2000? Why have most programs never won one? Why have only 15 programs since the tournament started in 1937 won more than one national championship? Why does an old man use this forum to get his rocks off by pretending to be the biggest moron on the internet day after day?

He's definitely not pretending. He is the biggest moron.

 

[freescooter]

He's definitely not pretending. He is the biggest moron.

None of these teams, not a single one, is more than marginally relevant on the national scene. Other than Villanova, nobody is picking a NEWBIE to win it all come March. It is fine. A solid league. But Marquette has had 50 years to become a national power. Our Marquette fanboy loves to cite all sorts of statistics to buttress his case. But how many Final Fours have they been to since the NEWBIE started? How many Elite 8s or Sweet 16s? Yet somehow they are going to step up and be the next Duke. They had a brief run 2011-13, in the real Big East, but what happened? Buzz left for greener pastures. And as I said, you need to be able to keep your coach. Because unless you’re Duke or UNC or Kansas, replacing him is a crapshoot. Even there it is, but they won’t wait 5 years for results.

Becoming a major program from the NEWBIE is hard. It is hard from any conference, but when your conference schedule is littered with average teams, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul* and the rest it is even more difficult. Here’s what I’m talking about. In the NEWBIE you can be ranked in the top 20-25 and you’ll likely be first or second place in the league. Basically it’s a league of programs who consider being ranked and getting to the Tournament to be success. National Programs want to win, not just show up. Of course it doesn’t mean they will win. Gonzaga shows that. But they build teams year to year with that in mind.
* Caution. May contain basketball like product.

 

[UCSouth]

None of these teams, not a single one, is more than marginally relevant on the national scene. Other than Villanova, nobody is picking a NEWBIE to win it all come March. It is fine. A solid league. But Marquette has had 50 years to become a national power. Our Marquette fanboy loves to cite all sorts of statistics to buttress his case. But how many Final Fours have they been to since the NEWBIE started? How many Elite 8s or Sweet 16s? Yet somehow they are going to step up and be the next Duke. They had a brief run 2011-13, in the real Big East, but what happened? Buzz left for greener pastures. And as I said, you need to be able to keep your coach. Because unless you’re Duke or UNC or Kansas, replacing him is a crapshoot. Even there it is, but they won’t wait 5 years for results.

Becoming a major program from the NEWBIE is hard. It is hard from any conference, but when your conference schedule is littered with average teams, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul* and the rest it is even more difficult. Here’s what I’m talking about. In the NEWBIE you can be ranked in the top 20-25 and you’ll likely be first or second place in the league. Basically it’s a league of programs who consider being ranked and getting to the Tournament to be success. National Programs want to win, not just show up. Of course it doesn’t mean they will win. Gonzaga shows that. But they build teams year to year with that in mind.
* Caution. May contain basketball like product.

Why does it bother you so much that, regardless of what you may think or even care, UCONN always has been and always will be a Basketball school? Football may drive the bus, but unfortunately all of the tires are flat. So do us all, on the BB board, a favor and take your bluster and go blow up some tires.

 

[MU in MKE]

None of these teams, not a single one, is more than marginally relevant on the national scene. Other than Villanova, nobody is picking a NEWBIE to win it all come March. It is fine. A solid league. But Marquette has had 50 years to become a national power. Our Marquette fanboy loves to cite all sorts of statistics to buttress his case. But how many Final Fours have they been to since the NEWBIE started? How many Elite 8s or Sweet 16s? Yet somehow they are going to step up and be the next Duke. They had a brief run 2011-13, in the real Big East, but what happened? Buzz left for greener pastures. And as I said, you need to be able to keep your coach. Because unless you’re Duke or UNC or Kansas, replacing him is a crapshoot. Even there it is, but they won’t wait 5 years for results.

Becoming a major program from the NEWBIE is hard. It is hard from any conference, but when your conference schedule is littered with average teams, Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul* and the rest it is even more difficult. Here’s what I’m talking about. In the NEWBIE you can be ranked in the top 20-25 and you’ll likely be first or second place in the league. Basically it’s a league of programs who consider being ranked and getting to the Tournament to be success. National Programs want to win, not just show up. Of course it doesn’t mean they will win. Gonzaga shows that. But they build teams year to year with that in mind.
* Caution. May contain basketball like product.

At this point, I'm not really sure what you define as a "major" program anymore as we've pretty much exhausted all your moving goalposts. I think we're down to Nova, UConn, Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, and Gonzaga as the only major programs in existence anymore?

That being said, I really think we've made progress here now that you've agreed the BE is a top 4 conference at minimum. And I totally agree with you, being a "major" program requires both coaching and facilities (I'd also include recruiting, but that comes from a combination of the first two). That is why I believe Creighton and Marquette can step up to consistently run at the top of the conference. Creighton has the coach and are working to build their resources in order to have the facilities. Meanwhile, Marquette has the facilities, but needs the long term coach to make it happen. Buzz didn't "leave for greener pastures" other than that he was told to clean up his program or the AD was going to show him those pastures himself... so Buzz left instead of doing that. Wojo just never got traction and only did well just enough to stick around for 7 years (aka, almost the entire time the "new" BE existed).

So I guess we're in agreement, Creighton and Marquette have the most potential!





Listen, it’s great you have an opinion about the BE. You’re entitled to that. But when you openly comment about it and you’re proven wrong time and time again, you should probably just stop. Follow my lead in posting, I don’t comment on threads specific to this year’s team because I don’t know as much about them as 90% of the posters here. Instead, I sit back and I read the threads and I learn something and keep my posts to mostly OT threads and BE threads. I'm not trying to be harsh here, but maybe you should follow suit on any discussion about the conference or anything CBB related and sit back and learn while keeping your posts to subjects you know more about like FB?

 

[NJHoops]

I would love for it to be Georgetown. Ewing is a really easy guy for me to root for, but I wish he was further ahead than he is heading into year 5. That 26-44 conference record is a rough one.

Marquette and Smart seem like a perfect match. I think he’ll get back to his style with recruits that will play it and have a lot of success.

 

[freescooter]

LOL. Yeah Wojo was there for 7 years of mediocrity. At a major power he would have been out the door after year 4 maybe sooner. Somehow I don’t buy your story about Buzz, but hey whatever let’s you think you’re big time. None of these programs are big time. Villanova won 2 titles from the NEWBIE. Since 2014 there have been 5 different SEC team, 3 different Big 10, 3 different ACC, 4 different Big 12 teams and 2 different PAC 12 teams in the final four. Heck, the ACC, Big 10 and SEC have all had 2 teams in a single year. Sorry but that speaks to the depth of those conferences. Multiple very good teams who can compete for a championship. The NEWBIE has no such depth. If Villanova flames out nobody else has shown they can pick up the torch. A bunch of pretty good teams, play good games against each other, but there aren’t any other elite teams.

I get it. You are a NEWBIE fanboy and want to think your team is elite. It isn’t. And given all the headwinds it and the NEWBIE face, it likely won’t be. Could it pull off a LoyolaChicago or a VCU run some day? Sure. So could Fairfield I suppose. But elite? Not likely chummy.

Now your turn to spout all sorts of winning % and RPI and other stuff. I had a coach who used to start the season with a question: Who finished second in the American League last year?

As far as major powers, like the Supreme Court said about , I can’t define it but I Know it when I see it. And it ain’t Marquette. Regarding UConn’s status, I have said several times that I worry that they are on they are very much in danger of becoming Indiana, and one who used to get legacy bids. A once powerful program that has become an afterthought. Joining the NEWBIE kind of suggests we don’t care if that happens. But we have MSG so who cares about great teams. Mediocre teams can play exciting games against each other, too.

 

[Zissou]

LOL. Yeah Wojo was there for 7 years of mediocrity. At a major power he would have been out the door after year 4 maybe sooner. Somehow I don’t buy your story about Buzz, but hey whatever let’s you think you’re big time. None of these programs are big time. Villanova won 2 titles from the NEWBIE. Since 2014 there have been 5 different SEC team, 3 different Big 10, 3 different ACC, 4 different Big 12 teams and 2 different PAC 12 teams in the final four. Heck, the ACC, Big 10 and SEC have all had 2 teams in a single year. Sorry but that speaks to the depth of those conferences. Multiple very good teams who can compete for a championship. The NEWBIE has no such depth. If Villanova flames out nobody else has shown they can pick up the torch. A bunch of pretty good teams, play good games against each other, but there aren’t any other elite teams.

I get it. You are a NEWBIE fanboy and want to think your team is elite. It isn’t. And given all the headwinds it and the NEWBIE face, it likely won’t be. Could it pull off a LoyolaChicago or a VCU run some day? Sure. So could Fairfield I suppose. But elite? Not likely chummy.

Now your turn to spout all sorts of winning % and RPI and other stuff. I had a coach who used to start the season with a question: Who finished second in the American League last year?

As far as major powers, like the Supreme Court said about , I can’t define it but I Know it when I see it. And it ain’t Marquette. Regarding UConn’s status, I have said several times that I worry that they are on they are very much in danger of becoming Indiana, and one who used to get legacy bids. A once powerful program that has become an afterthought. Joining the NEWBIE kind of suggests we don’t care if that happens. But we have MSG so who cares about great teams. Mediocre teams can play exciting games against each other, too.

Lol. What programs are you ranking above Nova since 2014?

You do know the NCAA tournament structure, right? Nova has to buzz through the Big 12, the ACC, and the Big Ten to win those titles. It’s not like you win your conference and you are anointed national champion.

When was the last Big Ten title?

You spout final fours to measure conference excellence and then you dismiss success unless you win it all with asking “Who finished 2nd in the American League last year?” That would literally be the final four of baseball.

I’d agree Marquette isn’t a blue blood, but that’s a short list. It’s not a program with asterisks on its seasons either. Regardless, it has a title in its history, it’s a contender, and it has a very good name coach.

You seem to also discount Butler’s and UConn’s final four histories, and UConn’s championships. And Georgetown went to a final four in 2007.

Who is Big Time big enough for you?

The Big East is a top 2-4 conference in any reasonable discussion. That’s not high level enough for you? Where do you think UConn belongs? Where do you think the other Flagship universities in New England belong?

 

[MU in MKE]

LOL. Yeah Wojo was there for 7 years of mediocrity. At a major power he would have been out the door after year 4 maybe sooner. Somehow I don’t buy your story about Buzz, but hey whatever let’s you think you’re big time. None of these programs are big time. Villanova won 2 titles from the NEWBIE. Since 2014 there have been 5 different SEC team, 3 different Big 10, 3 different ACC, 4 different Big 12 teams and 2 different PAC 12 teams in the final four. Heck, the ACC, Big 10 and SEC have all had 2 teams in a single year. Sorry but that speaks to the depth of those conferences. Multiple very good teams who can compete for a championship. The NEWBIE has no such depth. If Villanova flames out nobody else has shown they can pick up the torch. A bunch of pretty good teams, play good games against each other, but there aren’t any other elite teams.

I get it. You are a NEWBIE fanboy and want to think your team is elite. It isn’t. And given all the headwinds it and the NEWBIE face, it likely won’t be. Could it pull off a LoyolaChicago or a VCU run some day? Sure. So could Fairfield I suppose. But elite? Not likely chummy.

Now your turn to spout all sorts of winning % and RPI and other stuff. I had a coach who used to start the season with a question: Who finished second in the American League last year?

As far as major powers, like the Supreme Court said about , I can’t define it but I Know it when I see it. And it ain’t Marquette. Regarding UConn’s status, I have said several times that I worry that they are on they are very much in danger of becoming Indiana, and one who used to get legacy bids. A once powerful program that has become an afterthought. Joining the NEWBIE kind of suggests we don’t care if that happens. But we have MSG so who cares about great teams. Mediocre teams can play exciting games against each other, too.

So to sum up:

1. You admit you don't know much about CBB and only watch in March and final fours are your only criteria for what makes a good program (this time)
2. You refuse to listen to facts and go only on your gut feeling. Hence your dislike of my providing real world data and factual information such as Buzz Williams departure from MU and hard analytics like actual wins or team metrics regarding what a good team or conference actually is
3. You are losing the argument so you pick a new argument, in this case which programs aren't elite right now, despite that not being the topic of the thread. Which, if that's the conversation you want to have, cool here it is: I agree, Marquette should have fired Wojo earlier. Ask most MU fans and they'd say the same thing. The AD kept him around because he ran a clean program and recruited at a high level which always kept their hopes up and enough fans in the seats... to the long term detriment of the program. But Texas must not be a good program either, since they kept Shaka for 6 years despite a similar tourney record. What a mediocre school, am I right?


Quit being such a Debbie downer on every conference related thread. Can you just give us an opinion on which program, if you had to pick one, is most likely to step up? That's kinda what the original question was. I'm curious what your answer would be.

 

[Guapo]

Stop beating up on @freescooter y’all, it’s just mean at this point. He clearly someone with low cognitive function.

 

[HooperScooper]

So to sum up:

1. You admit you don't know much about CBB and only watch in March and final fours are your only criteria for what makes a good program (this time)
2. You refuse to listen to facts and go only on your gut feeling. Hence your dislike of my providing real world data and factual information such as Buzz Williams departure from MU and hard analytics like actual wins or team metrics regarding what a good team or conference actually is
3. You are losing the argument so you pick a new argument, in this case which programs aren't elite right now, despite that not being the topic of the thread. Which, if that's the conversation you want to have, cool here it is: I agree, Marquette should have fired Wojo earlier. Ask most MU fans and they'd say the same thing. The AD kept him around because he ran a clean program and recruited at a high level which always kept their hopes up and enough fans in the seats... to the long term detriment of the program. But Texas must not be a good program either, since they kept Shaka for 6 years despite a similar tourney record. What a mediocre school, am I right?


Quit being such a Debbie downer on every conference related thread. Can you just give us an opinion on which program, if you had to pick one, is most likely to step up? That's kinda what the original question was. I'm curious what your answer would be.

I'm going to give you some Boneyard advice. Don't bother arguing with him. Many people on here put him on ignore or just don't read his posts. You ever argue with a 4 year old? Yeah, same thing here. It's just not worth the effort.

 

[Zissou]

It has always been a unique aspect of the Big East that we play in pro markets. I might miss something here, going off the top of my head, but Big East teams that play in active or former pro arenas: Nova, Georgetown, St Johns, Seton Hall, UConn, Marquette. DePaul (brand new), Creighton, and X have great facilities. Butler plays in a historic basketball shrine. Prov has the Dunk.

Of all the things to complain about, it’s playing in mostly NBA arenas?

If you are road-tripping to visit us this year, we welcome you to the Wells Fargo Center complex. WFC is home of the Sixers and the complex has shared parking with the Phils and Eagles. The XFINITY LIVE party complex ties them all together with bars, beer halls, and restaurants with a central mall with a 40 foot screen for pregame, postgame, and those that don’t score tickets. We also tailgate year round, so no worries that the date is Feb 5, load up the tailgate.

 

[Zissou]

Right. Beyond where we play, good facilities! Nova has the Davis Center for basketball operations.

 

[freescooter]

Lol. What programs are you ranking above Nova since 2014?

You do know the NCAA tournament structure, right? Nova has to buzz through the Big 12, the ACC, and the Big Ten to win those titles. It’s not like you win your conference and you are anointed national champion.

When was the last Big Ten title?

You spout final fours to measure conference excellence and then you dismiss success unless you win it all with asking “Who finished 2nd in the American League last year?” That would literally be the final four of baseball.

I’d agree Marquette isn’t a blue blood, but that’s a short list. It’s not a program with asterisks on its seasons either. Regardless, it has a title in its history, it’s a contender, and it has a very good name coach.

You seem to also discount Butler’s and UConn’s final four histories, and UConn’s championships. And Georgetown went to a final four in 2007.

Who is Big Time big enough for you?

The Big East is a top 2-4 conference in any reasonable discussion. That’s not high level enough for you? Where do you think UConn belongs? Where do you think the other Flagship universities in New England belong?

LOL, I guess reading comprehension isn’t required to graduate from Villanova. I have said time and time again Villanova is the exception. It was a top program in the Big East. It is a top program in the NEWBIE. A national level power.

The rest just aren’t. Not to say somebody might not have a dream season, but if they do, it’s pretty likely the coach will be somewhere else the following year.

That’s Butler. That’s Marquette. And none of those have been more than meh since the formation of the NEWBIE. UConn is a special case I think. The Huskies were a true elite program for 25 years. But since then they have ranged from just another average program to pretty terrible at the end of the Ollie era. The next few years will tell I think, whether they return to that level or just hang around as a typical NEWBIE where an NCAA bid is considered a great season. I’m not confident that they didn’t make this move as the equivalent of Miami’s to the ACC. It was too damned hard to be a great program. They can be very average and still get noticed in the NEWBIE. As I said, we‘ll see.

Oh, and wake me when Creighton does something memorable.

 

[MJ1]

Unfree scooter, it’s not that he gets it, he just can’t sell it!! Nice try though.

 

[freescooter]

The thing I really don’t get is why people are so defensive of the NEWBIE. I’m a UConn fan and I don’t particularly like that they are now competing in a mediocre regional league at a huge cost to every other program and which I think will ultimately hold back basketball too. But if you think the NEWBIE is the #2 conference in the country (LOL, I guess if you don’t count the ACC, Big 10, Big 12, SEC and PAC it might be) and you are a UConn fan why do you feel the burning need to defend the likes of Butler and Seton Hall? And people want to add St Louis or Dayton, because I guess they figure UMaine Farmington won’t upgrade. Athletic teams in conferences tend toward the mean, I think. It takes incedible effort to do what Gonzaga does when you play more than half your games against San Diego and Pacific. Same goes for Villanova when you play the likes of Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul. The NEWBIE didn’t take UConn because they needed an odd number of teams, they took UConn because the needed another team that people had heard of who they hoped might challenge Villanova in what had become a very lackluster league. I don’t like it because I think it hurt all our programs. And I think UConn doesn’t belong in the company of a bunch of regional city universities and commuter schools.

 

[MJ1]

I just happen to feel the new Big East and Independent football is the way to go. Best of both worlds. Keeps UCONN alive for a P4 invite in 10 years when when the next big realignment hits. Basketball, Better recruiting, less travel, teams that have history, and finishing the season at the Garden the best College basketball tournament in the country. UCONN has 8 years in Football to turn it around and make the push for P4, stop losing to Holy cross and UMASS and be relevant again. The next coaching hire will determine our fate.
The American is dead, get over it!

 

[Guapo]

The thing I really don’t get is why people are so defensive of the NEWBIE. I’m a UConn fan and I don’t particularly like that they are now competing in a mediocre regional league at a huge cost to every other program and which I think will ultimately hold back basketball too. But if you think the NEWBIE is the #2 conference in the country (LOL, I guess if you don’t count the ACC, Big 10, Big 12, SEC and PAC it might be) and you are a UConn fan why do you feel the burning need to defend the likes of Butler and Seton Hall? And people want to add St Louis or Dayton, because I guess they figure UMaine Farmington won’t upgrade. Athletic teams in conferences tend toward the mean, I think. It takes incedible effort to do what Gonzaga does when you play more than half your games against San Diego and Pacific. Same goes for Villanova when you play the likes of Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul. The NEWBIE didn’t take UConn because they needed an odd number of teams, they took UConn because the needed another team that people had heard of who they hoped might challenge Villanova in what had become a very lackluster league. I don’t like it because I think it hurt all our programs. And I think UConn doesn’t belong in the company of a bunch of regional city universities and commuter schools.

It’s incredible that people are so willing to embarrass themselves like this in such a public manner

 

[UCSouth]

It’s incredible that people are so willing to embarrass themselves like this in such a public manner

It's easy when they are nameless and faceless.

 

[Samoo]

The Big 10 hasn’t won a National Championship in 22 years. Nova and UConn have won multiple in that span. Two top teams and a very respectable cast of Big East teams makes the league as competitive as the other Power 5 leagues.

High majors is a much better term for cbb.

 

[Zissou]

“Villanova... It was a top program in the Big East. It is a top program in the (Big East). A national level power.”

At least that part is on target.

 

[Guapo]

The thing I really don’t get is why people are so defensive of the NEWBIE. I’m a UConn fan and I don’t particularly like that they are now competing in a mediocre regional league at a huge cost to every other program and which I think will ultimately hold back basketball too. But if you think the NEWBIE is the #2 conference in the country (LOL, I guess if you don’t count the ACC, Big 10, Big 12, SEC and PAC it might be) and you are a UConn fan why do you feel the burning need to defend the likes of Butler and Seton Hall? And people want to add St Louis or Dayton, because I guess they figure UMaine Farmington won’t upgrade. Athletic teams in conferences tend toward the mean, I think. It takes incedible effort to do what Gonzaga does when you play more than half your games against San Diego and Pacific. Same goes for Villanova when you play the likes of Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul. The NEWBIE didn’t take UConn because they needed an odd number of teams, they took UConn because the needed another team that people had heard of who they hoped might challenge Villanova in what had become a very lackluster league. I don’t like it because I think it hurt all our programs. And I think UConn doesn’t belong in the company of a bunch of regional city universities and commuter schools.

Do you think we should have stayed in the crumbling AAC? Do you think there’s an invite from the ACC or BIG that we’re declining? Why did Hurley choose UConn over Pitt? Do you have brain worms? Do you need us to send help?

 

[Tiamat7]

The various monikers of the so-called New Big East is a waste of time. It's a high major, power 6.

Every conference has evolved over the decades. Let's put the Newbie / Zombie names to rest. Everyone knows the original BE was special.

It's the Big East conference in 2021. Get over it.

 

[freescooter]

The NEWBIE, as I said at the beginning, is like the kid who gets into Harvard because there is a dorm named for his maternal great grandfather. Villanova is the older brother who got into Penn on his own merit.