What is wrong with the offense?

[TheChamps990411]

Figured I'd throw it out there to see what ya'll think. I have some my own ideas but won't share yet.

Let's leave CV and AGs early season troubles out of it. We have talked about that 100x.

Yesterday I saw a team that won because we were more talented at every position. Personally, what I saw Xs and Os-wise didn't wow me. Seems like we're scoring when plays break down or in transition much more than the half court.

What needs to change? Or does the team just need more reps.

We need a pass first PG like Gaffney. Diid you see some of the open shots we had that he assisted on? Pass first PG is what this team needs.

 

[intlzncster]

You're thinking of Tony Bennett. Randy is the St. Mary's coach. Randy has had 1 guy drafted total (Patty Mills).

My bad, just read through the last names really fast as I'm want to do.

 

[intlzncster]

I compare this team to top 25 teams, not Ollie's. As every uconn fan should. It's where we want to be.

And comparing to KO's teams...well, it's not saying much.

 

[ctchamps]

Correct. I think kids are overcoached on offense, including on our team.

Care to elaborate.

 

[husky429]

Care to elaborate.

A lot of very good coaches are on the same page. Chris Oliver at basketball immersion made me more cognizant of the truth of it.

Kids don't have enough freedom to play in hs and college. True of uconn and many others. Set plays, set plays, set plays. 3 passes before a shot. No early 3s. Stuck in roles. Wait until you're done with the set to score the ball. See it all the time in hs ball.

The reality is with some exceptions the best shot available is likely to be within 8 seconds or so after the ball crosses half court. I see coaches screaming to set up plays ALL the time. That just let's the defense get set.

My team held opponents to about 22% shooting in half court sets if we stop them for 10 seconds after the defensive board. Tracked it last season. I will eat a "set play" team for lunch. Easy to scout.

imo kids like akok and bouk are going to thrive if you just tell them to SCORE THE BALL in whatever motion we're running.

Idk how exactly to describe it except to say that I know it. And it's obvious to good coaches--even one's that do it. They're afraid to give up some measure of control.

 

[ctchamps]

Systemic problem:
Calhoun/Stevens/Bennett/Kenpom affect demonstrating defense is more important to success thus shifting coaching emphasis. Combined with early season need /pressure for important games causing less opportunity for development of offense. Combined with emphasis on calling fouls on moving screens disrupting offensive flow.

UConn problem:
Slower than average Carleton reaction time, Carleton still struggling with positioning as plays are deviated from set designs, Gilbert’s height and not having a reliable floater or pull up shot, Gaffney and Bouknight still need more time to develop plus the team is subject to the systematic problems.

 

[ctchamps]

A lot of very good coaches are on the same page. Chris Oliver at basketball immersion made me more cognizant of the truth of it.

Kids don't have enough freedom to play in hs and college. True of uconn and many others. Set plays, set plays, set plays. 3 passes before a shot. No early 3s. Stuck in roles. Wait until you're done with the set to score the ball. See it all the time in hs ball.

The reality is with some exceptions the best shot available is likely to be within 8 seconds or so after the ball crosses half court. I see coaches screaming to set up plays ALL the time. That just let's the defense get set.

My team held opponents to about 22% shooting in half court sets if we stop them for 10 seconds after the defensive board. Tracked it last season. I will eat a "set play" team for lunch. Easy to scout.

imo kids like akok and bouk are going to thrive if you just tell them to SCORE THE BALL in whatever motion we're running.

Idk how exactly to describe it except to say that I know it. And it's obvious to good coaches--even one's that do it. They're afraid to give up some measure of control.

Thanks. So you recommend swagger ball.

 

[CTBasketball]

We don’t have a scorer that we can say “go get buckets and takeover.” Until that person develops (likely Bouk or Akok, not this year tho) I’m fine with running sets.

It’ll be chaos if we tell people to go ball out.

 

[Waquoit]

I think our offense will continue to improve. Akok alone for starters.

 

[intlzncster]

A lot of very good coaches are on the same page. Chris Oliver at basketball immersion made me more cognizant of the truth of it.

Kids don't have enough freedom to play in hs and college. True of uconn and many others. Set plays, set plays, set plays. 3 passes before a shot. No early 3s. Stuck in roles. Wait until you're done with the set to score the ball. See it all the time in hs ball.

The reality is with some exceptions the best shot available is likely to be within 8 seconds or so after the ball crosses half court. I see coaches screaming to set up plays ALL the time. That just let's the defense get set.

My team held opponents to about 22% shooting in half court sets if we stop them for 10 seconds after the defensive board. Tracked it last season. I will eat a "set play" team for lunch. Easy to scout.

imo kids like akok and bouk are going to thrive if you just tell them to SCORE THE BALL in whatever motion we're running.

Idk how exactly to describe it except to say that I know it. And it's obvious to good coaches--even one's that do it. They're afraid to give up some measure of control.

I'm just cringing thinking about Vital's reaction if Hurley took off the governor.

 

[spudzj6]

The key to a good offense is to make the defense move, to adjust because your finding either mismatches or getting the ball to spots where you can get a better percentage shot. With a guy like josh down low, he should get a ton of looks. As of late (last two games) he “disappeared”. I put it in quotes because it’s not all on josh. I’m not sure what the message to the team happens to be, but the guards on the perimeter don’t execute the offense needed to get josh the ball in the right position. I can go thru the last game and give at least 6 examples of the offense not finding josh when he worked for position. In fairness, Josh is trying to ask for the ball while the guard is at the top of the key, constantly. Terrible and the exact way to throw away the ball, as we’ve seen recently.

If they can execute and get josh the ball in position, you force them to double team. Teach josh to react faster to the double team and youll find ways to get an open look nearly every time.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I like the horns set better than the weave/big man flash and handoff and think we should run that more. However, they are both designed to do the same thing -- get the defense moving laterally to set up dribble penetration. This is what 90% of college offenses are designed to do. Why? Because nothing is more disruptive to a defense than dribble penetration. It forces defenders to help and rotate, which most college players aren't good at, which leads to kick-outs to shooters or feeds to big men or baseline cutters.

The problem in our man offense is two-fold. The first is that the hand-offs and exchanges are happening too far from the basket. That can be corrected but the game plan to defend us is to pressure the ball whether it's in the hands of a guard or a big and try to push us out further. The second is that we don't have many guys who can effectively penetrate. That makes us an easy scout. Pressure the ball, don't leave Polley, and swarm Carlton as soon as we try to feed it to him.

As for the history of Hurley's offense, I disagree that it was bad at URI. It wasn't a symphony of motion like John Beilein's or Lon Kruger's, but it looked like many offenses around the country. Lots of ball screens, with dribble penetration and kick-outs being the goal. The hand-off was not featured nearly as much as it has been with us. I think part of that is that he doesn't want Carlton running a high pick and roll as it's not his strength, and setting the high screen from another position can mess with spacing if Carlton is still on the low block.

I think Carlton's problem with the pick and roll is as much where it is happening on the court as anything. Running a pick and roll down the lane is a tough play for the center. It is a tough pass to catch. because he has to put the ball on the floor for at least one dribble and the help defense is going to be there almost immediately. It is a fairly athletic play to make and Carlton is not exactly an athletic marvel. Pick and roll's generally work better from the side of the court, and I think that is especially true for Carlton.

 

[Rico444]

Once we have guards that can put pressure on the defense with the threat of dribble drive AND from deep, that's when you'll see the offense really take off. I understand this sounds obvious, so let me clarify. You don't have to be Michael Jordan, but right now Gilbert's jump shot isn't a threat so defenders pack it in when he has the ball. Vital has the shot, but they know that if he drives the lane he's as likely to turn it over or force up a bad shot as he is to burn them. Once Bouknight tightens things up and Gaffney continues to gain confidence, we should look much better offensively. Gilbert can still figure out things with his shot, too, so there's definitely room for improvement. I think Vital is what he is at this point, but when the other guards are bigger threats to the defense it'll open things up for him.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think the biggest problem with the offense is shot selection by AG and CV. Contested pull up 3's are bad shots unless you are Shabazz Napier or Kemba Walker. It doesn't matter what motion or sets you run, if CV and AG think they can jack crazy shots, you might as well play pickup offense.

 

[MDHuskFan]

One thing I noticed last game, was that the drive and dish/driving room in general was much better with Carlton off the floor. It's really a double edged sword, but i'd say we're similar (of course in a lighter version) of what happens to Kansas when Azibuke is on the floor. Carltons inability to stretch the floor in any way what so ever clogs driving lanes & keeps the paint congested.


PS-Not saying that we're better with Carlton on the bench, but just an observation with him on the floor.

 

[businesslawyer]

One thing I noticed last game, was that the drive and dish/driving room in general was much better with Carlton off the floor. It's really a double edged sword, but i'd say we're similar (of course in a lighter version) of what happens to Kansas when Azibuke is on the floor. Carltons inability to stretch the floor in any way what so ever clogs driving lanes & keeps the paint congested.


PS-Not saying that we're better with Carlton on the bench, but just an observation with him on the floor.

Obviously, your offense should be designed differently based on whether you're playing with a low-post, back to the basket Center on offense versus one who is comfortable playing on the perimeter and being able to catch and shoot at the foul line extended. Carlton is the first type. If you don't get him the ball and make the other team double him, then all you're accomplishing is making sure at least one big on defense is in the lane when a guard drives. But if you get him the ball, on a good day he'll score off most bigs he's playing against (after looking ugly for the first possession or two) unless he's double teamed, and if he is double teamed the entire offense opens up.

Said another way, if you aren't going to make sure your low post big has to be doubled, then you are better off with a more mobile, better jump shooting big so you can keep the lane open.

 

[HuskylnSC]

I have an issue with the offensive sets and perhaps one of you can explain to me the purpose. It is what I call phantom screens. We seem to set a lot of on ball screens and hand-offs, but before the screener makes any contact they roll towards the hoop. I'm very old school, (High school varsity 68-71), but i have always thought the purpose of the screen is to disrupt the defensive flow, clear shooting space, cause switches, and get mismatches. What I see is the big comes out, either sets a phantom screen or gets the ball and hands it back, and then dives back low. Nothing is accomplished except time is taken off the clock.

 

[businesslawyer]

I have an issue with the offensive sets and perhaps one of you can explain to me the purpose. It is what I call phantom screens. We seem to set a lot of on ball screens and hand-offs, but before the screener makes any contact they roll towards the hoop. I'm very old school, (High school varsity 68-71), but i have always thought the purpose of the screen is to disrupt the defensive flow, clear shooting space, cause switches, and get mismatches. What I see is the big comes out, either sets a phantom screen or gets the ball and hands it back, and then dives back low. Nothing is accomplished except time is taken off the clock.

I'm sure there are posters more technically proficient than I. But I'll answer it as follows.

1. Early in the shot clock, even if there is no contact on the pick, and the ball handler isn't using it as a screen to get off an 18 footer if no one follows him (see, e.g., Stockton and Malone), it still acts to get the defense moving, and the more you force the defense to move early in the possession the more holes that open up.

2. Many defenders assume we're not going to jack up even an open 3 early in the possession and simply give the dribbler room on the screen.

3. I'm not quite as old as you, but setting picks and screens is a lost art. I don't think players get taught it early enough and I don't think they're particularly good at it in college. So part of the issue is I'm guessing Hurley would like Carlton and Whalley to set firmer screens than they do and roll harder once they take contact. (This is especially true when nothing comes off the first screen and Carlton comes back high to set another screen later in the shot clock.)

But, like #2 above, I think both teams know the goal of the screen is not to get off a shot in the next 3 seconds but to get players on both offense and defense moving. Although I'm all ears if someone who coaches currently or recently has a better answer.

 

[HuskylnSC]

I'm sure there are posters more technically proficient than I. But I'll answer it as follows.

1. Early in the shot clock, even if there is no contact on the pick, and the ball handler isn't using it as a screen to get off an 18 footer if no one follows him (see, e.g., Stockton and Malone), it still acts to get the defense moving, and the more you force the defense to move early in the possession the more holes that open up.

2. Many defenders assume we're not going to jack up even an open 3 early in the possession and simply give the dribbler room on the screen.

3. I'm not quite as old as you, but setting picks and screens is a lost art. I don't think players get taught it early enough and I don't think they're particularly good at it in college. So part of the issue is I'm guessing Hurley would like Carlton and Whalley to set firmer screens than they do and roll harder once they take contact. (This is especially true when nothing comes off the first screen and Carlton comes back high to set another screen later in the shot clock.)

But, like #2 above, I think both teams know the goal of the screen is not to get off a shot in the next 3 seconds but to get players on both offense and defense moving. Although I'm all ears if someone who coaches currently or recently has a better answer.

Thanks for the response. I should be more succinct in my question which ultimately is; Why no contact on these phantom screens. Without contact, there is no disruption of the defense.

 

[ctchamps]

I think our offense will continue to improve. Akok alone for starters.

Or Akok Akok together for finishers.

 

[Rico444]

Thanks for the response. I should be more succinct in my question which ultimately is; Why no contact on these phantom screens. Without contact, there is no disruption of the defense.

Even if there's no contact, altering the defender's path to his man is beneficial.

 

[Edward Sargent]

Very enjoyable string

 

[HuskyHawk]

Lots of good comments in here so far. I agree with a lot of it.

Calhoun rarely ran what I’d consider pretty offense. Beautiful offense is what we used to see out of Princeton and still see on occasion from some high major clubs. I watch enough KU games to know that Self runs some nice offense at times. It is largely a system designed to beat defenses without having superior athletic talent. We see other teams run it against us often enough.

I think our problems stem from several factors.

• Carlton is slow, can’t jump and is an old school back to the basket center. Nothing in Hurley’s offense is designed around such a player. So we either waste him and don‘t feed him (UNH) or we change the offense and feed him often.
• Lack of motion. Our players have a tendency to stand around and stop moving. They especially do this when we are focused on feeding Josh the ball. Our weave is ineffective and our high ball screen never turns into a pick and roll. Our screeners leave too early and roll too slowly.
• Our two most dynamic players are freshmen and both are deferential.
• Our PG and senior SG are not shooting as well as they can and too often must make something happen late in the shot clock because nobody else has made themselves available for a productive pass.

There is no easy solution. In general I think we need to overload the interior when we are trying to use Carlton. Post Akok on the opposite side and force the defense to collapse hard. It will take three guys to guard those two down low. We will get either inside layups or open looks from 3. Dribble penetration cannot be the go to with Josh on the court. With Josh out, I think we spread the floor, attack the rim and look for kick outs or cutters to the basket. It’s probably what Dan Hurley wants to run. Like Nova of a few years ago.

 

[intlzncster]

Lots of good comments in here so far. I agree with a lot of it.

Calhoun rarely ran what I’d consider pretty offense. Beautiful offense is what we used to see out of Princeton and still see on occasion from some high major clubs. I watch enough KU games to know that Self runs some nice offense at times. It is largely a system designed to beat defenses without having superior athletic talent. We see other teams run it against us often enough.

I think our problems stem from several factors.

• Carlton is slow, can’t jump and is an old school back to the basket center. Nothing in Hurley’s offense is designed around such a player. So we either waste him and don‘t feed him (UNH) or we change the offense and feed him often.
• Lack of motion. Our players have a tendency to stand around and stop moving. They especially do this when we are focused on feeding Josh the ball. Our weave is ineffective and our high ball screen never turns into a pick and roll. Our screeners leave too early and roll too slowly.
• Our two most dynamic players are freshmen and both are deferential.
• Our PG and senior SG are not shooting as well as they can and too often must make something happen late in the shot clock because nobody else has made themselves available for a productive pass.

There is no easy solution. In general I think we need to overload the interior when we are trying to use Carlton. Post Akok on the opposite side and force the defense to collapse hard. It will take three guys to guard those two down low. We will get either inside layups or open looks from 3. Dribble penetration cannot be the go to with Josh on the court. With Josh out, I think we spread the floor, attack the rim and look for kick outs or cutters to the basket. It’s probably what Dan Hurley wants to run. Like Nova of a few years ago.

I just want to reiterate to points that dovetail into your analysis:

1. We have few good ball handlers
2. We have few good passers

 

[ctchamps]

I just want to reiterate to points that dovetail into your analysis:

1. We have few good ball handlers
2. We have few good passers

Maybe Paige Buekers could play for both the men’s and women’s team next year.

Duck’s for cover from “the women’s game is not the same as the men’s game” crowd.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I just want to reiterate to points that dovetail into your analysis:

1. We have few good ball handlers
2. We have few good passers

True. Vital is sub-par at both for a SG. Polley is sub par at both for a SF. So is Sid. Adams is ok but not a plus ball handler or passer. AG is solid in both areas and so is Gaffney. Akok is a pretty good passer.

With our starters on the floor, feeding the post is our most effective approach. Our best lineup for playing Jay Wright style is Akok at 5, Adams at 3, Bouk at 2, AG or Gaffney at 1 and Polley at 4 or even Sid. Often we saw Frankenstein lineups that were bad at both things. The IU game was a perfect example.

 

[RayRay]

Very interesting analytics, thank you. This entire time I'm thinking we need to sit either Vital or Polley to get Bouk more minutes, but between sitting Sid entirely and opening up minutes, and now this, I think bringing Carleton off the bench against the right opponent is the key. NJIT starts 3 guards and 2 forwards 6"8 and 6"9. This is the perfect game to experiment with what worked so well in the 2nd half vs UNH and start 5-Akok 4-Polley 3/2- Bouk and Vital 1-AG.

Gaurantee if we had started this lineup vs St.Joes, we never get far enough behind to lose that game even with their hot shooting.

 

[businesslawyer]

True. Vital is sub-par at both for a SG. Polley is sub par at both for a SF. So is Sid. Adams is ok but not a plus ball handler or passer. AG is solid in both areas and so is Gaffney. Akok is a pretty good passer.

With our starters on the floor, feeding the post is our most effective approach. Our best lineup for playing Jay Wright style is Akok at 5, Adams at 3, Bouk at 2, AG or Gaffney at 1 and Polley at 4 or even Sid. Often we saw Frankenstein lineups that were bad at both things. The IU game was a perfect example.

We saw Akok play the 5 for a few minutes against New Hampshire. That is a long way from thinking he can cover an AAC 5 with some bulk. But I agree with you that if he could, you could then run a 'Nova style offense effectively.

Carlton is going to be our guy at least this year. The offense has to start with him either drawing double teams or scoring. We know from last year that if they are taking good 3s -- like they did when J. Adams had to be doubleteamed -- both Gilbert and Vital can hit them. Goodness knows Polley can, and Akok can as well. Whether it's Dan Hurley's preferred offense or not, we have to get better at it because dribble drives with undersized guards and Carlton being stuck in the low block isn't going to work (as we see again and again).

 

[businesslawyer]

Very interesting analytics, thank you. This entire time I'm thinking we need to sit either Vital or Polley to get Bouk more minutes, but between sitting Sid entirely and opening up minutes, and now this, I think bringing Carleton off the bench against the right opponent is the key. NJIT starts 3 guards and 2 forwards 6"8 and 6"9. This is the perfect game to experiment with what worked so well in the 2nd half vs UNH and start 5-Akok 4-Polley 3/2- Bouk and Vital 1-AG.

The problem with experimenting with it is if it works, so what? Akok does not have the bulk to play the 5 defensively against better and stronger teams.

 

[RayRay]

The problem with experimenting with it is if it works, so what? Akok does not have the bulk to play the 5 defensively against better and stronger teams.

I agree here. Maybe we have to become a team that switches between these 2 lineups depending on the opponent. It would be pretty easy to switch up mid game or even after a bad first few minutes if necessary.