What is going to happen to the smaller private institutions in the upcoming realignment landscape?

[billybud]

Syracuse? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Stanford would set off multiple nuclear bombs on their own campus before they would join an "elite" academic league that had Syracuse in it. That was funny. Thanks.

Cuse does rank higher (USNWR) than Penn State, Indiana, Michigan State, and Nebraska

 

[UC1995]

I would put the chances of Notre Dame joining a league that had Stanford, Vandy, Northwestern, Duke, and Rice and whoever at about 80%. The ND Alumni (not the wannabe Internet tools but actual alumni) would demand it. I think they would have a chance to pull U of Chicago out of D3 for something like that too.

This is not some pipe dream either. I know alums at these schools that would much rather be associated with each other than play against glorified minor league teams like Alabama or Ohio State. And in a streaming world, I am confident that a league like the one we are discussing in this thread could get a reasonable TV contract.

I wouldn’t ever equate OSU to Alabama in regards to academics. OSU is extremely challenging to get into even for i state students now. Their football team might have been one on the 80’s and 90’s that had the likes of Andy Katzenmoyer who got special treatment to be eligible but it is vastly better then most schools now.

Kids coming out of OSU as athletes do go to the pros but they are also excelling off the field as well professionally.

 

[billybud]

I would more equate Ohio State to Georgia....very similar academic rankings (tied in USNWR 2023)....Bama is way back in the pack.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Syracuse? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Stanford would set off multiple nuclear bombs on their own campus before they would join an "elite" academic league that had Syracuse in it. That was funny. Thanks.

I didn't say they were all elite. All of the schools I listed are fine academic institutions that have at least some nationally regarded programs. I wouldn't consider BC, Miami, SMU, Tulane, etc. truly elite either, but they are worthy schools to fill out an academically oriented private school league. Stanford has been able to put up with playing Washington State, Oregon State, etc so I think they'd be able to tolerate playing Syracuse. Hell, when I was at Cornell I used to hear the jokes told at other Ivy League universities about CU having an "ag school", including the Harvard band creating a phallic symbol on the field amid references to breeding. I actually took one graduate class in the School of Agriculture and Life Sciences (AKA the ag school) and it was among the more challenging ones I had in my two years in Ithaca. People always want to create hierarchies, particularly if they see themselves on top.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Players will have to pay tuition, fee, room & board if this happens.

Not sure about that, but certainly some/many schools could provide scholarships if they desired. Honestly, I am all for athletes getting Healthcare and or workers comp protections because injuries impact athletes for the rest of/later in life.

 

[Viet Vet]

I didn't say they were all elite. All of the schools I listed are fine academic institutions that have at least some nationally regarded programs. I wouldn't consider BC, Miami, SMU, Tulane, etc. truly elite either, but they are worthy schools to fill out an academically oriented private school league. Stanford has been able to put up with playing Washington State, Oregon State, etc so I think they'd be able to tolerate playing Syracuse. Hell, when I was at Cornell I used to hear the jokes told at other Ivy League universities about CU having an "ag school", including the Harvard band creating a phallic symbol on the field amid references to breeding. I actually took one graduate class in the School of Agriculture and Life Sciences (AKA the ag school) and it was among the more challenging ones I had in my two years in Ithaca. People always want to create hierarchies, particularly if they see themselves on top.

I was at Penn in the late 60s, then typically viewed at the bottom of the Ivies (along with Cornell) by the others. I’ll never forget going to a Penn football game at Harvard Stadium.
The concession stand sold oversized buttons for each team. They were “Harvard”, and “Penn State”.

That hurt (but it was clever).

 

[CL82]

People always want to create hierarchies, particularly if they see themselves on top.

People always want to create hierarchies that portray them as being at the top.

 

[Fishy]

I have often wondered about how the Catholic schools got away without paying an exit fee plus the fee to retain the old name.

Negotiated split.

The American kept $100M in exit fees, the Catholics kept $10M or something like that. They got the name and MSG.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I wouldn’t ever equate OSU to Alabama in regards to academics. OSU is extremely challenging to get into even for i state students now. Their football team might have been one on the 80’s and 90’s that had the likes of Andy Katzenmoyer who got special treatment to be eligible but it is vastly better then most schools now.

Kids coming out of OSU as athletes do go to the pros but they are also excelling off the field as well professionally.

The athletes at the top programs are going to effectively be employees. There will only be the most tenuous pretense of them being “student athletes” going forward. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about Auburn or Michigan. Any school that is uncomfortable with that should find another solution for their athletic program.

I think that some of the top academic schools could have a problem with this. That said, I don’t think it is all or nothing with academics. I think some of the top athletes are going to negotiate some kind of marginal academic status that meets the NCAA’s bare minimums for them to be considered students. There is too much money involved to continue to pretend otherwise. But I do think there will be some athletes that want to get paid and go to a good school and have a demanding academic experience, maybe just not as many or as good players as there used to be. If you are Michigan or UCLA or some other top athletic program that also considers itself a top tier academic college, you will have a decision to make. I don’t see the Stanfords or Notre Dames being willing to make these allowances, but we will see.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I didn't say they were all elite. All of the schools I listed are fine academic institutions that have at least some nationally regarded programs. I wouldn't consider BC, Miami, SMU, Tulane, etc. truly elite either, but they are worthy schools to fill out an academically oriented private school league. Stanford has been able to put up with playing Washington State, Oregon State, etc so I think they'd be able to tolerate playing Syracuse. Hell, when I was at Cornell I used to hear the jokes told at other Ivy League universities about CU having an "ag school", including the Harvard band creating a phallic symbol on the field amid references to breeding. I actually took one graduate class in the School of Agriculture and Life Sciences (AKA the ag school) and it was among the more challenging ones I had in my two years in Ithaca. People always want to create hierarchies, particularly if they see themselves on top.

Stanford played in the PAC 10 for a century because it was a regional league, and Washington State was not pretending to be anything it isn’t. If Stanford would form a national league of prestige academic institutions, Syracuse is not making the cut. Syracuse is a compass school that still gets away with charging $80,000 a year because there are a lot of upper middle class New Yorkers that need to send their stupid kids somewhere.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

The athletes at the top programs are going to effectively be employees. There will only be the most tenuous pretense of them being “student athletes” going forward. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about Auburn or Michigan. Any school that is uncomfortable with that should find another solution for their athletic program.

I think that some of the top academic schools could have a problem with this. That said, I don’t think it is all or nothing with academics. I think some of the top athletes are going to negotiate some kind of marginal academic status that meets the NCAA’s bare minimums for them to be considered students. There is too much money involved to continue to pretend otherwise. But I do think there will be some athletes that want to get paid and go to a good school and have a demanding academic experience, maybe just not as many or as good players as there used to be. If you are Michigan or UCLA or some other top athletic program that also considers itself a top tier academic college, you will have a decision to make. I don’t see the Stanfords or Notre Dames being willing to make these allowances, but we will see.

It could be that collective bargaining happens such that all athletes at all schools will be employees. Not sure how Title IX would apply to your scenario across gender, but either way I'd bet that it's not going to be only the top programs or the top athletes at the top programs kind of system.

 

[RSTuthill]

It could be that collective bargaining happens such that all athletes at all schools will be employees. Not sure how Title IX would apply to your scenario across gender, but either way I'd bet that it's not going to be only the top programs or the top athletes at the top programs kind of system.

Well, possibly, but I think only revenue sports will be effected. FB and BB to start. Regulated by a new professional sports body. Eventually MHOC as well.

 

[How Sway?!]

No, they're struggling as a university.

Enrollment:
2023 - 5759
2022 - 6166
2021 - 6738
2020 - 6751
2019 - 6839

Do you see a very bad trend here?

In the context of COVID, it isn't out of the ordinary. Even UConn declined in enrollment numbers.

 

[The Yakk]

Cuse does rank higher (USNWR) than Penn State, Indiana, Michigan State, and Nebraska

Cuse is circling the drain; their supporters just don't know it yet.

You can get a better education for a third of the price at one of the SUNY's. The prestige of an overpriced mediocre private school has no value anymore.

Within two generations the SU campus will be repurposed as some kind of destination casino/low-end retail. Bethlehem, PA version 2.0 with a giant domed food court that has great air conditioning.

It will happen ever faster if the ACC blows up and Syracuse is left without a home.

 

[hardcorehusky]

Cuse is circling the drain; their supporters just don't know it yet.

You can get a better education for a third of the price at one of the SUNY's. The prestige of an overpriced mediocre private school has no value anymore.

Within two generations the SU campus will be repurposed as some kind of destination casino/low-end retail. Bethlehem, PA version 2.0 with a giant domed food court that has great air conditioning.

It will happen ever faster if the ACC blows up and Syracuse is left without a home.

After driving through Syracuse quite a few times in the last 6 months, the whole city looks to be drab and in trouble. They can always fall back on lacrosse though

 

[billybud]

Have to agree that Syracuse is overpriced in tuition...at $61,310....

Others overpriced...Connecticut College $50,795, Boston University $59,815

In comparison to Harvard $57,246, Yale $59,950, MIT $55,878

 

[Chuck]

Cuse is circling the drain; their supporters just don't know it yet.

You can get a better education for a third of the price at one of the SUNY's. The prestige of an overpriced mediocre private school has no value anymore.

Within two generations the SU campus will be repurposed as some kind of destination casino/low-end retail. Bethlehem, PA version 2.0 with a giant domed food court that has great air conditioning.

It will happen ever faster if the ACC blows up and Syracuse is left without a home.

I don't know. If you are a northeast kid, Syracuse is a relatively popular option and I can't see that ending. Although I think if they find themselves outside of a power conference, it takes away a big reason to go there.

Syracuse has a $1.8 billion endowment. They seem to use that to liberally give out merit aid that makes the tuition equal to state schools like UConn, Rutgers, SUNYs (all when out of state). Not every kid is Harvard material. Syracuse is a perfectly fine school and alums seem to have loved it. Kids in NJ (my state) often don't want to go to Rutgers. Many choose Syracuse over UConn, Penn State and the SUNYs every year. I know at least a few of them that are paying the same as those other options.

I think there will be a lot of schools struggling. While I'd love to see Syracuse as one of them (unless I have a kid that winds up there, of course), I just don't know that they will be.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Stanford played in the PAC 10 for a century because it was a regional league, and Washington State was not pretending to be anything it isn’t. If Stanford would form a national league of prestige academic institutions, Syracuse is not making the cut. Syracuse is a compass school that still gets away with charging $80,000 a year because there are a lot of upper middle class New Yorkers that need to send their stupid kids somewhere.

Fine. You hate Syracuse and feel it's not deserving. I get it and I'm not going to waste a lot of time arguing over a hypothetical league that will never happen. If you want a truly elite, private, FBS league it would have only six teams: Stanford, Rice, Duke, Northwestern, Vandy and Notre Dame.

Humorously, I learned a bit about academic reputations 20 years ago when I was doing a start-up in the Annapolis area. One day I was talking to our admin, who answered the phones, manned the front desk, did some book-keeping and maintained schedules. She told me she had a chemistry degree from Duke. She could obviously tell that I was surprised and proceeded to say, "It wasn't then what it is now" (and she wasn't old - probably around 40). She told me something I knew but didn't really appreciate until then. They used sports, particularly basketball, to promote the academic side. If you can get enough national TV announcers to say (as they did throughout the late 80s, the 90s and beyond), "It's really incredible that a powerful academic school such as Duke can have a championship quality basketball team" people will start to believe it. It's the same principle that BC used during the Flutie era to build its reputation. Back in the 40s, 50s, 60s and even into the 70s, Holy Cross was the dream school for New England Catholic males and BC was the fallback. With all the free publicity BC was able to vastly improve its reputation.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Well, possibly, but I think only revenue sports will be effected. FB and BB to start. Regulated by a new professional sports body. Eventually MHOC as well.

Anybody know what Title IX means relative to the potential employee status? Either it means nothing or it might mean that female athletes would need access/comp/benefits to equality with male athletes?

 

[RSTuthill]

I don't know. If you are a northeast kid, Syracuse is a relatively popular option and I can't see that ending. Although I think if they find themselves outside of a power conference, it takes away a big reason to go there.

Syracuse has a $1.8 billion endowment. They seem to use that to liberally give out merit aid that makes the tuition equal to state schools like UConn, Rutgers, SUNYs (all when out of state). Not every kid is Harvard material. Syracuse is a perfectly fine school and alums seem to have loved it. Kids in NJ (my state) often don't want to go to Rutgers. Many choose Syracuse over UConn, Penn State and the SUNYs every year. I know at least a few of them that are paying the same as those other options.

I think there will be a lot of schools struggling. While I'd love to see Syracuse as one of them (unless I have a kid that winds up there, of course), I just don't know that they will be.

Syracuse's Maxwell School of Public Affairs is pretty highly ranked. My son recently got a PhD from there.

 

[Slasher]

In the context of COVID, it isn't out of the ordinary. Even UConn declined in enrollment numbers.

UConn dropped by a miniscule percentage and then bounced back up. Xavier has dropped 16% in 5 years. Huge difference.

 

[CL82]

Anybody know what Title IX means relative to the potential employee status?

Lol, no, I don't think anyone does. Great question.

 

[Billy Jack]

Maybe Vandy/Northwestern get pushed out?

That can’t happen. The by-laws don’t allow for it except for some very rare curcumstances and egregious behaviour by the university.

 

[Billy Jack]

I have often wondered about how the Catholic schools got away without paying an exit fee plus the fee to retain the old name.

There was an agreement a couple of years before realignment occurred, between the football schools and the basketball-only schools for an amicable split without anyone paying exit fees. It allowed fir the basketball-only schools to leave en masse. It was treated more as a split of the conference than as individual departures from the conference. It has often been referred to as a pre-nup. This analogy, comparing it to a divorce, is probably a better representation of what happened than saying that the C7 left the Big East. As in a divorce, the 2 sides then divided up the assets. The C7 got the name and the MSG tournament.

 

[NE Football]

All 3 conferences, Big 12, ACC & PAC 12 are all scrambling to no avail to catch up to the B1G and the SEC. The best solution is for all 3 conferences to merge into one 36 team conference. They would control a huge amount of inventory that the networks would desperately need to fill program slots. It would be a national conference that would command a huge TV deal perhaps in the range of 3 billion annually. No doubt collectively they will get more per team versus going it as 3 separate conferences.

 

[CL82]

All 3 conferences, Big 12, ACC & PAC 12 are all scrambling to no avail to catch up to the B1G and the SEC. The best solution is for all 3 conferences to merge into one 36 team conference. They would control a huge amount of inventory that the networks would desperately need to fill program slots. It would be a national conference that would command a huge TV deal perhaps in the range of 3 billion annually. No doubt collectively they will get more per team versus going it as 3 separate conferences.

Or one Conference can reach an optimized number freezing out other schools, and cutting the pie slices larger for their schools.