What if... Moriah Jefferson

[Wally East]

The only reason DT probably leads in the Uconn player rankings is because she won three NCs and two of them were with young good players, while Moore won only two and had Tina Charles by her side for both, and the year she had young future AAs to lead, she didn't win the ultimate prize.

You undermine your own argument here because you're saying that teammates matter, regardless of how one is assessing them, which, of course they do.

Is it fair to ding Marino for not winning because he never played with a great running back or a great defense? Or Ted Williams because Boston's pitching was stinky? Or EDD or Jackie Stiles for not attending UConn? No. It is ridiculous.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm not sure how Moriah going from 3 rings to 4 rings while Sue "only" has two makes a difference to the Rings Matter crowd. Anyone care to field that?

I love Sue but Moriah is a bit better.

 

[j66kicker]

1) Is it fair to ding Marino for not winning because he never played with a great running back or a great defense? Or Ted Williams because Boston's pitching was stinky? Or EDD or Jackie Stiles for not attending UConn?

2) I love Sue but Moriah is a bit better.

1) Yes. Especially your EDD example - her choice. Ted Williams was more concerned about his batting average than with winning.

2) I love Moriah but Sue was a bit better

 

[Dove]

4 Championships would make her best point guard ever at UConn. Hands down. Period. That's it. Yep.


I wonder what @HuskyNan thinks.

 

[j66kicker]

4 Championships would make her best point guard ever at UConn. Hands down. Period. That's it. Yep.

Then, by that logic, Mickey Mantle's 7 World Series championships make him better than any Red Sox player who ever lived (which he obviously was anyway, but your "stats" bear it out).

 

[Dove]

Then, by that logic, Mickey Mantle's 7 World Series championships make him better than any Red Sox player who ever lived (which he obviously was anyway, but your "stats" bear it out).

Without writing it I defer to @UcMiami 's post on Page 1 of this thread.

 

[JRRRJ]

Quarterbacks and point guards are held to a different standard -- not only does their individual performance impact the judgment of their greatness, but their impact on the team as a team mate and as a leader has much more weight than those playing other positions and sports. While we can admire the talent, mindset and production of a Ted Williams, baseball is much more a one-on-one sport -- your team mates have little to do with your ability to make each individual play. Basketball, football, soccer and other similar team sports individual accomplishments are augmented or hindered by the precision, diversion, assistance and mindset of your team mates. A QB or PG who takes on the leadership mantle, lifts his/her team's level of play by example, will, cheerleading, setting expectations, etc. merits grading far beyond their individual skill. This may be exemplified by the number of games and/or championships their team wins, but may only be shown by how many more the team wins than would have been the case had the PG or QB not been a leader. This leadership aspect obviously can apply to a team member playing any position. But in a game, the QB or PG is the one in control of the execution of plays, and is "responsible" for success or failure in a way the others are not. That's why, even though she accumulated far lesser stats than her talent and will would have enabled, we remember Diana as we do.

In this day, the leadership aspect of a PG at UConn is far less necessary than previously. The talent level is extremely high, Geno gets to recruit motivated young ladies who have already bought into his proven philosophies before they arrive on campus, team culture expects and supports it's members to practice and play beyond their own expectations. No head-butting Svetas here!

I'm not even making a pitch for one over the other here. Just pointing out another dimension of the ill-defined notion of "greatness" for PGs. This discussion has been fun to read, taught me a few things and inspired me to find some excellent articles about Jackie Stiles that I hadn't seen. (Now an asst coach at Missouri State).

We love both Sue & Mo, but I submit the definition of "greatest" as it applies to PGs has not even been essayed, never mind accomplished. Until that happens this debate must remain inconclusive.

 

[j66kicker]

Quarterbacks and point guards are held to a different standard -- not only does their individual performance impact the judgement of their greatness, but their impact on the team as a team mate and as a leader has much more weight than those playing other positions and sports.

Great point!

 

[Wally East]

1) Ted Williams was more concerned about his batting average than with winning.

As if getting on base is somehow counter to the team's goal of winning?

2) I love Moriah but Sue was a bit better

An entirely defensible and respectable position. Well, except for the inherent inconsistency in you stating it since Moriah has more rings.

 

[hoophuskee]

OK - I'll bite. And agree stats are only so good especially with PGs. And I am just adding a counter to some of your points not really disagreeing. (And I do love this)
1. The list of players Bird played some or all of her career with are all over the best percentage shooters in Uconn history - starting with her classmates - Williams #1 .703, Cash #9 .551 and Jones came in at .505, then the others she played some years with - #5 J. Moore, #6 Shea, #7 Kelly Schumacher, #12 Hansmeyer. Other notables: Sveta at .500 and DT at .469. Moriah - for top performers at Uconn: Dolson at #4 .588 and left off the list but does barely qualify Stokes .599 (she should be listed at #4 moving the other ranks down), Her classmates aren't bad with Morgan at .545 and Stewart at .514 (and rising), other notables KML at .486, Hartley at .453, Nurse at .486 (and falling), Faris at .455 - I think overall Sue probably had the better percentage shooters to pass to. Sue's 3 teams shot .539, .499, and .520, Moriah's last two shot .503 and .540 and they are currently at .524 (her freshman year .496) so pretty close, but interestingly Sue was fortunate she wasn't passing to herself as she shot below the team average while Moriah is unfortunate not to be passing to herself as she is shooting well above the team average.

2. On three point shooters - I grant you KML at #2 for Mo, but Sue had #5 Sveta, # 9 DT and #14 Shea to pass out to. (Stewart might just sneak onto that list this year if she can keep her current percentage through the year. Their teams shot: Sue - .463, .385, .405; Moriah - .366, .406, and currently .365 (freshman year .378) but I am too lazy to back out Sue's and Moriah's numbers and they both shot significantly better than their team average. And really for a PG you are better passing to a two point shooter than a three point shooter in general as the percentages tend to be significantly better.

3. Agree that Moriah has had the better shot blockers behind her, but Sue's back line was't bad with Schumacher ranked #8, Asjha #10, Swin #13, J. Moore #14, and Sauer #16 ( DT is # 11 by the way) and I am not sure how much the back line defense has to do with steals. Sue's teams rank #2, #5, and #9 on the all time list while Moriah's rank #14 and #10 (and her freshman year ranks number #6.) Most of Moriah's steals seem to come from her quick hands and speed rather than gambling in passing lanes. I think Moriah is a superior defender because of speed and quickness, and not so much her help defense or gambling, and when she plays denial defense is when the real frustrations of her player show up, and that has nothing to do with help defenders.

4. I think Sue was a better big moment player but you can match a TN with a SC game. Sue scored 10.9 ppg as a sophomore v. Moriah's 10.0 but took 0.7 more shots to accomplish it while dishing 0.6 fewer assists and committing 0.5 more turnovers. Sue had a 2.0 A/TO, Moriah came in at 3.0

5. Before January Moriah in the last two plus years has shot threes at about .300 - after January 1st she has shot at above .600. Her overall shooting percentages have been more steady at around .575. We'll see what she does this year - she has already raise her 3 percentage by about 70 points. I agree about the conference strength though 2000-02 the BE was yet to become the consistently strong league it became in the middle and late 2000s. I think the overall strength of the OOC has been stronger in Moriah's years than it was in Sue's years.

What great fun to have had the opportunity to watch them both - just get better and better - year over year. Both now kickazz players.

 

[Phillyconn]

1) Yes. Especially your EDD example - her choice. Ted Williams was more concerned about his batting average than with winning.

2) I love Moriah but Sue was a bit better

Better at what????

 

[j66kicker]

Better at what????

Passer, scorer, 3-point shooter, leader, clutch winner

 

[Waquoit]

Passer, scorer, 3-point shooter, leader, clutch winner

The first four are debateable, but when did a MoJeff team squander a half-time lead and get blown out in a FF game?

 

[NoelAustin]

The first four are debateable, but when did a MoJeff team squander a half-time lead and get blown out in a FF game?

Your point and question are well taken. I think the standard of "clutch" can be misleading in this comparison. Sue had her clutch game-winning shot in the 2001 BE championship game. Diana brought UConn back from the abyss in the 2003 national semifinal. Maya put the team on her back in the 2010 NC game. The legacy of Stewie and Moriah might not have similar heroics for lack of need or opportunity. If a team is too successful to have to be clutch, that shouldn't be counted against them.

 

[UcMiami]

You undermine your own argument here because you're saying that teammates matter, regardless of how one is assessing them, which, of course they do.

I don't think I am, because what I am really arguing is both individual stats and team stats matter, and that championships are part of those stats, and teammates are as well. Being able to lead, or at least be a major contributor to championships does matter to most people, though the actual count of those championships is less important - 3 v 2 becomes more reflective of teammates and competition than individual player, but zero vs any number for most people (and I include myself) makes a difference - just like say not winning major championships in golf is a huge black mark against the golfers who otherwise were superb.

JRRJ - great post. I would make a distinction in soccer (and hockey to a slightly lesser extent) that the commonly compiled statistics are so small (shots on goal, scores, assists, saves) that the brilliance of individual team members does shine through the team oriented dependence of those same players. Football which also has limited scoring, because of it being a series of discreet plays is able to quantify many more statistics clearly - those statistics are still dependent on 10 teammates still performing properly, but ... Advanced metrics in baseball and soccer are trying to advance the evaluation process to collect more measurable, but I think is more subjective than people readily admit.

And I would disagree a little on your premise that PG leadership is less critical today than previously, because I don't think leadership is ever 'less critical' and it has never been solely the sphere of the PG - Shea Ralph would be a prime example from the 2000 team and her loss in 2001 was as much that quality as her actual production. Nor would I say Sue and her teammates were any less prepared or disciplined when they arrived than Moriah and her teammates. The culture within the team I think was a very early quality to be established by Geno and CD, and just the perception and acknowledgment of it from outside has been slower to become a fixed 'signature' in the media/public perception.

What great fun to have had the opportunity to watch them both - just get better and better - year over year. Both now kickazz players.

I agree whole heartedly - and I found in my research to respond to your post how enjoyable it was to revisit those 2000-02 teams through stats. And how amazingly consistent the team statistical similarities were between 2000-02 and 2013-15 even while in memory the personnel had very different strengths and weakness. And not just those years but all the great years both NCs and near misses.

 

[Waquoit]

If a team is too successful to have to be clutch, that shouldn't be counted against them.

I agree. It's not like they have had too many games decided late. But I have seen MoJeff bury a three to kill mini-rallies from the other side within a game. Or take the ball to the hole for an and-1. She snuffs out rallies before they occur. That's clutch to me.

 

[Wally East]

Better at what????

Better at not winning rings

 

[Wally East]

3 v 2 becomes more reflective of teammates and competition than individual player, but zero vs any number for most people (and I include myself) makes a difference - just like say not winning major championships in golf is a huge black mark against the golfers who otherwise were superb.

Golf, obviously, is entirely different since it's an individual sport.

But, you're arguing that 3 vs 2 is the same but 0 vs 1 is entirely different? So Paige Sauer and Kelly Schumacher > Lisa Leslie?

 

[UcMiami]

Golf, obviously, is entirely different since it's an individual sport.

But, you're arguing that 3 vs 2 is the same but 0 vs 1 is entirely different? So Paige Sauer and Kelly Schumacher > Lisa Leslie?

Nope - Paige and Kelly didn't have the career stats to be in any conversation, just like Marie, and Annie, and Kalana, and Jessica, Swin, and any number of other great teammates on championship teams.

Lisa was phenomenal as a USA NT and pro - I never saw her in college and have never checked her stats, but assume she was there as well - as a pro she is certainly in the conversation as 'greatest ever' and she has the golds and championships to back that up. I don't hear her mentioned when people are talking about greatest WCBB players ever, or even greatest WCBB centers ever, but it may be because of the obscurity of most college players from that era in terms of national coverage. I would tend to think of Griner and Charles and I have heard Donovan (AIAW champ) in that discussion - I don't hear Kara mentioned though she has both a championship and some impressive stats. Fowles was a beast in college, but i don't hear her either perhaps because of no championships.

As an aside - the WNBA really has changed the perception of players and their post collegiate careers - Leslie's USA accomplishments were her only chance to shine until the WNBA came along.

 

[Phillyconn]

Passer, scorer, 3-point shooter, leader, clutch winner

Better passer? Debatable. Scorer? No way. Mo, can shoot the 3 and has a pull up equal to Sue, in terms of fg percentage. The difference is that Mo can get to the rim at will. How do you stop that? If needed Mo could average 20 pts easily. But we have the unstoppable BS and MT, not to mention KLS. It makes sense that scoring and assist averages are not as high as they could be, because Geno wants everybody to be able to pass and score. How does an opposing team stop 5 players, who can all pass the ball and score if needed. How can you argue against Mo, the pg who has 3 NCAA titles, with #4 in sight. Mo, is the total package. She's great at just about everything she does on the court. I will sorely miss Mo and BS. Two of our all time greats.

 

[Wally East]

I don't hear her mentioned when people are talking about greatest WCBB players ever, or even greatest WCBB centers ever

To put it gently, those people are ill-informed. She and Griner are/were different types of centers but they are the two best.

Also: Rebecca > Tina (check the per game stats instead of the career totals)

Okay, Ann Strother has two rings and was a big contributor on those teams. EDD has none. Is Ann better than EDD? (I keep poking at this because I'm just curious as to where the line is.)

 

[UcMiami]

To put it gently, those people are ill-informed. She and Griner are/were different types of centers but they are the two best.

Also: Rebecca > Tina (check the per game stats instead of the career totals)

Okay, Ann Strother has two rings and was a big contributor on those teams. EDD has none. Is Ann better than EDD? (I keep poking at this because I'm just curious as to where the line is.)

I posted those stats about Tina and Rebecca so I know - but I think Rebecca really excelled when she got to play Breanna's role more when Kara arrived than as a true center, similar to what Jackson played in Seattle - her stats were better her junior year, but the team was better with Kara.
EDD to me was sort of irrelevant as a college player in discussions of greatest - she was the only real talent on that team - I don't believe any of her teammates ever got a look at a professional career. She played mediocre competition and her team had mediocre success. She didn't make the NCAAs her first two years and got to the round of 32 as a junior and sweet sixteen as a senior. Could you recognize great talent, yes, but she isn't anywhere on a college basketball HOF list for me personally. Ann isn't either, but she was at least relevant in that she was integral to a team that did consistently win even after DT left playing much greater competition. Ann's worst team performed as well as EDD's best
We could have the same conversation about Courtney Vandersloot - who put up phenomenal numbers as a PG on a decent team in a weak conference - and isn't in my conversation for best college PGs.

And I will add that EDD never won a NPOY award in college. (Courtney won one Lieberman by the way.) So yearly, voters in her college years discounted her impact for the same reasons I think - she was very talented but not as relevant to the game as other players.

 

[hoophuskee]

Better passer? Debatable. Scorer? No way. Mo, can shoot the 3 and has a pull up equal to Sue, in terms of fg percentage. The difference is that Mo can get to the rim at will. How do you stop that? If needed Mo could average 20 pts easily. But we have the unstoppable BS and MT, not to mention KLS. It makes sense that scoring and assist averages are not as high as they could be, because Geno wants everybody to be able to pass and score. How does an opposing team stop 5 players, who can all pass the ball and score if needed. How can you argue against Mo, the pg who has 3 NCAA titles, with #4 in sight. Mo, is the total package. She's great at just about everything she does on the court. I will sorely miss Mo and BS. Two of our all time greats.

I think better scorer is debatable too. Bird could have averaged easily over 20 too. Bird had Sveta and Ralph along with playing alongside one of the greatest classes ever than also had DT. It also makes sense for Bird that her scoring and assists averages weren't as high as they could have been too because the ball would be in Sveta's, and Ralph's, and DT's ands quite a bit too along iwht having such talent inside. There was a reason why after 01-02 players went 1,2 4 and 6 in the draft.

I know it's hard to argue against Mo - but how can you argue against Bird too? Her frosh year she was hurt. Her jr year - UCONN lost two all-americans of which one was lost extremely late- finals of BET.

We're blessed to have seen both along with all the other obscenely great players. I'll probably put MoJeff number 1 after completion of this season. I'm holding off for now.

 

[UcMiami]

I think better scorer is debatable too. Bird could have averaged easily over 20 too. Bird had Sveta and Ralph along with playing alongside one of the greatest classes ever than also had DT. It also makes sense for Bird that her scoring and assists averages weren't as high as they could have been too because the ball would be in Sveta's, and Ralph's, and DT's ands quite a bit too along iwht having such talent inside. There was a reason why after 01-02 players went 1,2 4 and 6 in the draft.

The quality of teammates for both players was phenomenal - I'll see your Sveta and Shea and Williams, and Jones, and Cash, and DT with Stef and Bria and Morgan, and Breanna, and Kaleena, and Napheesa, and Lou and I suspect they will match up pretty closely in terms of WNBA draft as well. On injuries I can match Sveta with Morgan, but agree about Shea being the killer occurring so late in the season - Stef being able to tough out her leg and foot injuries was huge that first year.

 

[j66kicker]

Better passer? Debatable. Scorer? No way. Mo, can shoot the 3 and has a pull up equal to Sue, in terms of fg percentage. The difference is that Mo can get to the rim at will. How do you stop that? If needed Mo could average 20 pts easily. But we have the unstoppable BS and MT, not to mention KLS. It makes sense that scoring and assist averages are not as high as they could be, because Geno wants everybody to be able to pass and score. How does an opposing team stop 5 players, who can all pass the ball and score if needed. How can you argue against Mo, the pg who has 3 NCAA titles, with #4 in sight. Mo, is the total package. She's great at just about everything she does on the court. I will sorely miss Mo and BS. Two of our all time greats.

I will sorely miss Mo and BS too - great, great players. And, re. Sue vs Mo for UCONN PG GOAT - everyone can be happy. We choose up our teams - I get Sue and you get Moriah. (I think my team wins, but so do you - we'll never be able to settle that.... )

 

[hoophuskee]

The quality of teammates for both players was phenomenal - I'll see your Sveta and Shea and Williams, and Jones, and Cash, and DT with Stef and Bria and Morgan, and Breanna, and Kaleena, and Napheesa, and Lou and I suspect they will match up pretty closely in terms of WNBA draft as well. On injuries I can match Sveta with Morgan, but agree about Shea being the killer occurring so late in the season - Stef being able to tough out her leg and foot injuries was huge that first year.

Even tonight watching the blur that is MoJeff. What an amazing talent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One play in the 1tshalf- not much is going on with other players throwing around the ball against the zone, they pass to Mo late in the shot clock- it was like -- okay no one open I'll stp this nonsense and just stick the three!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OT-- years ago on men's side the injury to Rickey Moore killed them. And before that our injury to Shea in her frosh year . . .

 

[jimazee]

Great thread!

Many well thought out and researched posts. Having watched the Huskies for decades, it reminds me all the more how memories fade. It also highlights that rings, awards, statistics, teammates, injuries, opponents, leadership, and athleticism all contribute to the discussions and 'comparison' of GOAT PG. Lots of fun to read...good work by the Boneyard.

I'm still not pickin' (probably ever) ...love 'em both, and a bunch more. UConn BB has been very special as have many of its players.