What if... Moriah Jefferson | Page 3 | The Boneyard

What if... Moriah Jefferson

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Phillyconn said:
What does matter then?
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The players' stats :D

I mean, are you prepared to say Chamique Holdsclaw was better than Maya because 3 rings to 2? Or would you want to look at the stats? Maria Conlon has 3 rings while Jackie Stiles has none. Is Conlon definitely better than Stiles? EDD has no rings but Pam Webber has one. Is Pam Webber better than EDD?
 
I think MoJeff is underrated, especially after reading this thread. She is an all-time WBB great, not just UConn. She's literally a phenomenal player.

But it's tough comparing two players from the same program because if you pick one, no matter how you couch it, it comes off as being critical of the other.
 
Waquoit said:
I think MoJeff is underrated, especially after reading this thread. She is an all-time WBB great, not just UConn. She's literally a phenomenal player.
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Agreed. Stewart should be getting lots of praise for what she's able to do (rightfully), but Moriah Jefferson has quietly become the second best player in the country and one of the best point guards in wcbb history. She doesn't have to carry the team, but watching her I get the feeling if she ever wanted to score 35 points on a given night, she totally could. She reminds me of Allen Iverson.
 
I think rings do matter, as well as stats, and wins matter as well as looking at the teammates and competition.

EDD is a great player, but you cannot look at her college results and say she was a great college player - choosing to play for a minor school that had no chance of success diminishes her standing as a college player. Winning isn't everything, but never winning does matter.

Marino was a great QB, but that only gets him into the HOF, it doesn't get him a seat at the table when discussing greatest ever, because for whatever reason (and it probably wasn't his fault) he NEVER won the big prize - the same for Kelly, or Warren Moon, or Ted Williams.

At the same time, saying a player who reached the mountain top 3 times vs. 2 times vs. only once, without looking at their stats and their surrounding players and their competition is being blinded by being on a more winning team. And saying that an obviously not great player on a team that wins is better than one that doesn't win is just silly. Lawlor and Polly will be on two or three championship teams, and no one is putting them on a pedestal.
 
I've tried not to weigh in on this but after reading some of the comments I just have one thing to say, Moriah's defense is what separates her from Sue Bird. Moriah is a lock-down defender and usually on the other team's best guard or wing player. Sue Bird wasn't close in college, the pros, or Olympics. Her defense on Kayla McBride two years ago in the Natty made the difference, as did her defense on Jewel Lloyd in last year's Natty. Both McBride and Lloyd are deluxe offensive talents that dominated WCBB their Senior years and both are significantly bigger than Mo. Her defense on Marina Mabrey in the 2nd half of the ND game this year was spectacular as was her shutting down Tiffany Mitchell of South Carolina last year. It is defense that makes Mo special and a better PG than Sue.
 
UcMiami said:
I think rings do matter, as well as stats, and wins matter as well as looking at the teammates and competition.

EDD is a great player, but you cannot look at her college results and say she was a great college player - choosing to play for a minor school that had no chance of success diminishes her standing as a college player. Winning isn't everything, but never winning does matter.

Marino was a great QB, but that only gets him into the HOF, it doesn't get him a seat at the table when discussing greatest ever, because for whatever reason (and it probably wasn't his fault) he NEVER won the big prize - the same for Kelly, or Warren Moon, or Ted Williams.

At the same time, saying a player who reached the mountain top 3 times vs. 2 times vs. only once, without looking at their stats and their surrounding players and their competition is being blinded by being on a more winning team. And saying that an obviously not great player on a team that wins is better than one that doesn't win is just silly. Lawlor and Polly will be on two or three championship teams, and no one is putting them on a pedestal.
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I completely disagree with your premise. It's a players individual achievement that gets them into the HOF and the GOAT discussions, especially in team sports when so many variables are out of the control of a single individual. Championships are an objective measure of greatness in individual sports, i.e. golf, tennis, boxing, and swimming because all of the variables are in the control of the individual. Dan Marino was the greatest QB in NFL history, not because of what the Dolphins as a team did, but his accomplishments, would you rather have Bradshaw and his 4 SB's than Marino. Your Ted Williams analogy falls flat as well, the difference between Williams and DiMaggio is that DiMaggio played for the Yankees, well he married Marilyn Monroe so you have to give him the edge for just that reason.

Your own example of Pulido and Lawlor disprove your point. Both will be at least 3 time National Champions, while Kayla McBride, Jewel Lloyd, and a host of other All-Americans will have none. Are Pulido or Lloyd AA's because of the Natty's? If that's the case then every player that has been a part of Uconn's 10 Natty's should be considered in the GOAT convo, Jackie Frenandez, Heather Buck, Brianna Banks, Meghan Gardler and all the rest.
 
iamcbs said:
I completely disagree with your premise. It's a players individual achievement that gets them into the HOF and the GOAT discussions, especially in team sports when so many variables are out of the control of a single individual. Championships are an objective measure of greatness in individual sports, i.e. golf, tennis, boxing, and swimming because all of the variables are in the control of the individual. Dan Marino was the greatest QB in NFL history, not because of what the Dolphins as a team did, but his accomplishments, would you rather have Bradshaw and his 4 SB's than Marino. Your Ted Williams analogy falls flat as well, the difference between Williams and DiMaggio is that DiMaggio played for the Yankees, well he married Marilyn Monroe so you have to give him the edge for just that reason.

Your own example of Pulido and Lawlor disprove your point. Both will be at least 3 time National Champions, while Kayla McBride, Jewel Lloyd, and a host of other All-Americans will have none. Are Pulido or Lloyd AA's because of the Natty's? If that's the case then every player that has been a part of Uconn's 10 Natty's should be considered in the GOAT convo, Jackie Frenandez, Heather Buck, Brianna Banks, Meghan Gardler and all the rest.
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Marino is about tenth on my list of QBs, and it is in part because he put up great stats while losing a lot of games and losing the most important games he played in. Individual players do have an effect on how teams play and on whether they win or lose.
DT never had the best statistics in her college career - a ton of players had more assists, more points, more rebounds, more steals, shot much higher percentage from two and three. But she had that something special that leads teams to victory, and she did it three times, and she is one of a very few players in the discussion for 'best player ever' because of her wins and not because of her stats.
If it were all about Stats DT wouldn't get best player in Uconn history consideration - Maya Moore runs away with it: 50% more points, 100% more rebounds, shooting 50 points higher, and 12 points higher from 3, with only 16% fewer assists (but with an identical 1.8 A/TO), 40% more blocks, and 78% more steals. She won more games and lost fewer games than DT. The only reason DT probably leads in the Uconn player rankings is because she won three NCs and two of them were with young good players, while Moore won only two and had Tina Charles by her side for both, and the year she had young future AAs to lead, she didn't win the ultimate prize.
 
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UcMiami said:
Marino is about tenth on my list of QBs, and it is in part because he put up great stats while losing a lot of games and losing the most important games he played in. Individual players do have an effect on how teams play and on whether they win or lose.
DT never had the best statistics in her college career - a ton of players had more assists, more points, more rebounds, more steals, shot much higher percentage from two and three. But she had that something special that leads teams to victory, and she did it three times, and she is one of a very few players in the discussion for 'best player ever' because of her wins and not because of her stats.
If it were all about Stats DT wouldn't get best player in Uconn history consideration - Maya Moore runs away with it: 50% more points, 100% more rebounds, shooting 50 points higher, and 12 points higher from 3, with only 16% fewer assists (but with an identical 1.8 A/TO), 40% more blocks, and 78% more steals. She won more games and lost fewer games than DT. The only reason DT probably leads in the Uconn player rankings is because she won three NCs and two of them were with young good players, while Moore won only two and had Tina Charles by her side for both, and the year she had young future AAs to lead, she didn't win the ultimate prize.
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DT3 is in the discussion as UConn's greatest player ever because she is far and away the player Geno references most when discussing the legacy aspect of UConn WCBB. As you so aptly stated Maya's stats are far superior to DT3's and DT3 has one more Natty than Maya, with less talent. Maya however is Maya and her talent is undeniable no matter how many Natty's she won or didn't win. There are many players From UConn whose individual stats would be better if they played elsewhere, DT3 being one of those. She did whatever it took to win and she still does today. The Dolphins you speak of were in position to lose those big games because of the incredible talent of Marino, for my money he is the GOAT w/o question. As far as DT3 her stats aren't bad at all for a player at the premier program in WCBB history. EDD as great as she was could carry Delaware any further than she did, could she?
 
UcMiami said:
The only reason DT probably leads in the Uconn player rankings is because she won three NCs and two of them were with young good players, while Moore won only two and had Tina Charles by her side for both, and the year she had young future AAs to lead, she didn't win the ultimate prize.
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You undermine your own argument here because you're saying that teammates matter, regardless of how one is assessing them, which, of course they do.

Is it fair to ding Marino for not winning because he never played with a great running back or a great defense? Or Ted Williams because Boston's pitching was stinky? Or EDD or Jackie Stiles for not attending UConn? No. It is ridiculous.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm not sure how Moriah going from 3 rings to 4 rings while Sue "only" has two makes a difference to the Rings Matter crowd. Anyone care to field that?

I love Sue but Moriah is a bit better.
 
Wally East said:
1) Is it fair to ding Marino for not winning because he never played with a great running back or a great defense? Or Ted Williams because Boston's pitching was stinky? Or EDD or Jackie Stiles for not attending UConn?

2) I love Sue but Moriah is a bit better.
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1) Yes. Especially your EDD example - her choice. Ted Williams was more concerned about his batting average than with winning.

2) I love Moriah but Sue was a bit better
 
4 Championships would make her best point guard ever at UConn. Hands down. Period. That's it. Yep.


I wonder what @HuskyNan thinks.
 
Dove said:
4 Championships would make her best point guard ever at UConn. Hands down. Period. That's it. Yep.
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Then, by that logic, Mickey Mantle's 7 World Series championships make him better than any Red Sox player who ever lived (which he obviously was anyway, but your "stats" bear it out).
 
j66kicker said:
Then, by that logic, Mickey Mantle's 7 World Series championships make him better than any Red Sox player who ever lived (which he obviously was anyway, but your "stats" bear it out).
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Without writing it I defer to @UcMiami 's post on Page 1 of this thread.
 
Quarterbacks and point guards are held to a different standard -- not only does their individual performance impact the judgment of their greatness, but their impact on the team as a team mate and as a leader has much more weight than those playing other positions and sports. While we can admire the talent, mindset and production of a Ted Williams, baseball is much more a one-on-one sport -- your team mates have little to do with your ability to make each individual play. Basketball, football, soccer and other similar team sports individual accomplishments are augmented or hindered by the precision, diversion, assistance and mindset of your team mates. A QB or PG who takes on the leadership mantle, lifts his/her team's level of play by example, will, cheerleading, setting expectations, etc. merits grading far beyond their individual skill. This may be exemplified by the number of games and/or championships their team wins, but may only be shown by how many more the team wins than would have been the case had the PG or QB not been a leader. This leadership aspect obviously can apply to a team member playing any position. But in a game, the QB or PG is the one in control of the execution of plays, and is "responsible" for success or failure in a way the others are not. That's why, even though she accumulated far lesser stats than her talent and will would have enabled, we remember Diana as we do.

In this day, the leadership aspect of a PG at UConn is far less necessary than previously. The talent level is extremely high, Geno gets to recruit motivated young ladies who have already bought into his proven philosophies before they arrive on campus, team culture expects and supports it's members to practice and play beyond their own expectations. No head-butting Svetas here!

I'm not even making a pitch for one over the other here. Just pointing out another dimension of the ill-defined notion of "greatness" for PGs. This discussion has been fun to read, taught me a few things and inspired me to find some excellent articles about Jackie Stiles that I hadn't seen. (Now an asst coach at Missouri State).

We love both Sue & Mo, but I submit the definition of "greatest" as it applies to PGs has not even been essayed, never mind accomplished. Until that happens this debate must remain inconclusive.
 
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JRRRJ said:
Quarterbacks and point guards are held to a different standard -- not only does their individual performance impact the judgement of their greatness, but their impact on the team as a team mate and as a leader has much more weight than those playing other positions and sports.
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Great point!
 
j66kicker said:
1) Ted Williams was more concerned about his batting average than with winning.
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As if getting on base is somehow counter to the team's goal of winning?

2) I love Moriah but Sue was a bit better
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An entirely defensible and respectable position. Well, except for the inherent inconsistency in you stating it since Moriah has more rings. :)
 
UcMiami said:
OK - I'll bite. And agree stats are only so good especially with PGs. And I am just adding a counter to some of your points not really disagreeing. (And I do love this)
1. The list of players Bird played some or all of her career with are all over the best percentage shooters in Uconn history - starting with her classmates - Williams #1 .703, Cash #9 .551 and Jones came in at .505, then the others she played some years with - #5 J. Moore, #6 Shea, #7 Kelly Schumacher, #12 Hansmeyer. Other notables: Sveta at .500 and DT at .469. Moriah - for top performers at Uconn: Dolson at #4 .588 and left off the list but does barely qualify Stokes .599 (she should be listed at #4 moving the other ranks down), Her classmates aren't bad with Morgan at .545 and Stewart at .514 (and rising), other notables KML at .486, Hartley at .453, Nurse at .486 (and falling), Faris at .455 - I think overall Sue probably had the better percentage shooters to pass to. Sue's 3 teams shot .539, .499, and .520, Moriah's last two shot .503 and .540 and they are currently at .524 (her freshman year .496) so pretty close, but interestingly Sue was fortunate she wasn't passing to herself as she shot below the team average while Moriah is unfortunate not to be passing to herself as she is shooting well above the team average.

2. On three point shooters - I grant you KML at #2 for Mo, but Sue had #5 Sveta, # 9 DT and #14 Shea to pass out to. (Stewart might just sneak onto that list this year if she can keep her current percentage through the year. Their teams shot: Sue - .463, .385, .405; Moriah - .366, .406, and currently .365 (freshman year .378) but I am too lazy to back out Sue's and Moriah's numbers and they both shot significantly better than their team average. And really for a PG you are better passing to a two point shooter than a three point shooter in general as the percentages tend to be significantly better.

3. Agree that Moriah has had the better shot blockers behind her, but Sue's back line was't bad with Schumacher ranked #8, Asjha #10, Swin #13, J. Moore #14, and Sauer #16 ( DT is # 11 by the way) and I am not sure how much the back line defense has to do with steals. Sue's teams rank #2, #5, and #9 on the all time list while Moriah's rank #14 and #10 (and her freshman year ranks number #6.) Most of Moriah's steals seem to come from her quick hands and speed rather than gambling in passing lanes. I think Moriah is a superior defender because of speed and quickness, and not so much her help defense or gambling, and when she plays denial defense is when the real frustrations of her player show up, and that has nothing to do with help defenders.

4. I think Sue was a better big moment player but you can match a TN with a SC game. Sue scored 10.9 ppg as a sophomore v. Moriah's 10.0 but took 0.7 more shots to accomplish it while dishing 0.6 fewer assists and committing 0.5 more turnovers. Sue had a 2.0 A/TO, Moriah came in at 3.0

5. Before January Moriah in the last two plus years has shot threes at about .300 - after January 1st she has shot at above .600. Her overall shooting percentages have been more steady at around .575. We'll see what she does this year - she has already raise her 3 percentage by about 70 points. I agree about the conference strength though 2000-02 the BE was yet to become the consistently strong league it became in the middle and late 2000s. I think the overall strength of the OOC has been stronger in Moriah's years than it was in Sue's years.
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What great fun to have had the opportunity to watch them both - just get better and better - year over year. Both now kickazz players.
 
Waquoit said:
The first four are debateable, but when did a MoJeff team squander a half-time lead and get blown out in a FF game?
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Your point and question are well taken. I think the standard of "clutch" can be misleading in this comparison. Sue had her clutch game-winning shot in the 2001 BE championship game. Diana brought UConn back from the abyss in the 2003 national semifinal. Maya put the team on her back in the 2010 NC game. The legacy of Stewie and Moriah might not have similar heroics for lack of need or opportunity. If a team is too successful to have to be clutch, that shouldn't be counted against them.
 
Wally East said:
You undermine your own argument here because you're saying that teammates matter, regardless of how one is assessing them, which, of course they do.
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I don't think I am, because what I am really arguing is both individual stats and team stats matter, and that championships are part of those stats, and teammates are as well. Being able to lead, or at least be a major contributor to championships does matter to most people, though the actual count of those championships is less important - 3 v 2 becomes more reflective of teammates and competition than individual player, but zero vs any number for most people (and I include myself) makes a difference - just like say not winning major championships in golf is a huge black mark against the golfers who otherwise were superb.

JRRJ - great post. I would make a distinction in soccer (and hockey to a slightly lesser extent) that the commonly compiled statistics are so small (shots on goal, scores, assists, saves) that the brilliance of individual team members does shine through the team oriented dependence of those same players. Football which also has limited scoring, because of it being a series of discreet plays is able to quantify many more statistics clearly - those statistics are still dependent on 10 teammates still performing properly, but ... Advanced metrics in baseball and soccer are trying to advance the evaluation process to collect more measurable, but I think is more subjective than people readily admit.

And I would disagree a little on your premise that PG leadership is less critical today than previously, because I don't think leadership is ever 'less critical' and it has never been solely the sphere of the PG - Shea Ralph would be a prime example from the 2000 team and her loss in 2001 was as much that quality as her actual production. Nor would I say Sue and her teammates were any less prepared or disciplined when they arrived than Moriah and her teammates. The culture within the team I think was a very early quality to be established by Geno and CD, and just the perception and acknowledgment of it from outside has been slower to become a fixed 'signature' in the media/public perception.

hoophuskee said:
What great fun to have had the opportunity to watch them both - just get better and better - year over year. Both now kickazz players.
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I agree whole heartedly - and I found in my research to respond to your post how enjoyable it was to revisit those 2000-02 teams through stats. And how amazingly consistent the team statistical similarities were between 2000-02 and 2013-15 even while in memory the personnel had very different strengths and weakness. And not just those years but all the great years both NCs and near misses.
 
NoelAustin said:
If a team is too successful to have to be clutch, that shouldn't be counted against them.
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I agree. It's not like they have had too many games decided late. But I have seen MoJeff bury a three to kill mini-rallies from the other side within a game. Or take the ball to the hole for an and-1. She snuffs out rallies before they occur. That's clutch to me.
 
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