What I learned today watching WCBB

[mbr33ct]

Great game by the "Spartans", eight of them managed to live for another day.

In the Tenn/Texas game, I will give Tenn a partial due but what offense do they run? in a game they score 88 points they only manage 8 assists? Meme Jackson had a breakout game of 33 points in 40 minutes of play with 0 assists. The Lady Vols "offense" was Jackson and Westbrook, you would think Aston would try to stop one of them?

 

[HuskyNan]

I saw most of the Oklahoma-DePaul game. Neither team distinguished itself. In the first half, Oklahoma looked bewildered and lost, played almost no defense, and couldn’t make a shot. DePauls greatest challenge was avoiding defenders that were standing around with confused looks on their faces.

The second half was better for OK as DePaul exposed all of its weaknesses. Sherri Coale switched her team defense to a zone (I couldn’t identify what OK was trying to do in the first hal) and DePaul was missing its threes. DePaul panicked when its 27 point lead was cut and OK was able to get the difference down to 6 before DePaul got its collective head together.

Oklahoma plays hard but it has the look of a team that’s still a work in progress.

 

[Dillon77]

Yeah, great performance by Michigan State. I'm wondering if Oregon is over-hyped.

I really enjoyed seeing Marquette. Hiedeman at 5-8 with 15 rebounds. I think they'll be a tough out in March.

Marquette is a really good team but you live by the 3 you will usually die by the 3 that night when the shots are just not falling.

Enjoyed both of your observations. Somewhere on the 'yard, I've posted some thoughts on Marquette, having watched ND (barely) survive an OT game against them last year (at home no less).

- They are relentless and do best when the game is in a helter-skelter mode.
- If the game comes down to a three-point bombfest, as pointed out, you thrive by the three, but it can bring you back to earth really fast if they're not falling.
- They're susceptible to bigs and/or bigs' sidekicks as Miami (of Florida) and Mississippi State have proven this season. Beatrice Mompremeier had a double double of 20 points and rebounds against Marquette!

It's hard to exert energy in pushing tempo, shooting threes and then dealing with teams that are bigger than you. Exciting has heck, but it can lead to an early exit in tourneys if you have a well-coached team that knows how to withstand the pressure and/or one that just dominates the paint.

p.s. that said, I'm not looking forward to the ND-Marquette rematch just before Xmas in Milwaukee. So, MM had to have an Arike homecoming game against Marquette? (Why not Milwaukee?)

 

[IrishTiger]

Enjoyed both of your observations. Somewhere on the 'yard, I've posted some thoughts on Marquette, having watched ND (barely) survive an OT game against them last year (at home no less).

- They are relentless and do best when the game is in a helter-skelter mode.
- If the game comes down to a three-point bombfest, as pointed out, you thrive by the three, but it can bring you back to earth really fast if they're not falling.
- They're susceptible to bigs and/or bigs' sidekicks as Miami (of Florida) and Mississippi State have proven this season. Beatrice Mompremeier had a double double of 20 points and rebounds against Marquette!

It's hard to exert energy in pushing tempo, shooting threes and then dealing with teams that are bigger than you. Exciting has heck, but it can lead to an early exit in tourneys if you have a well-coached team that knows how to withstand the pressure and/or one that just dominates the paint.

p.s. that said, I'm not looking forward to the ND-Marquette rematch just before Xmas in Milwaukee. So, MM had to have an Arike homecoming game against Marquette? (Why not Milwaukee?)

It’s good to be challenged. Facing Milwaukee would do no good.

 

[CocoHusky]

You never know how a kid will ultimately fit in elsewhere. Courtney Ekmark at ASU had a 21-point day (in 22 minutes, with six threes) for the 17th ranked Sun Devils...

I am secretly hoping that ASU is a 3-4 seed in the Albany bracket come tournament time and that Courtney gets to end her career playing against UCONN.

 

[Dillon77]

It’s good to be challenged. Facing Milwaukee would do no good.

I'll put in a "roll my eyes" emoji if need be. Sorry, the sarcasm wasn't straightforward enough!
The Marquette series was obviously booked and announced to be a home and home. Plus MM was scheduled a pretty rigorous out of conference schedule.

 

[CocoHusky]

Good Lord, Charli Collier has played in 7 or 8 games and it is already decided that Karen Aston should have developed her talent by now?

Uhm... don't know how to break this to you but TN was Texas' & Collier's 9th game of the season. Chop, chop..

 

[meyers7]

Really? You have been around for like 5 minutes and you are going to start making posts like this? This is a UConn women's basketball forum, Collier was a UConn women's basketball commit. This is a thread discussing the team that Collier now plays for, get it?

You so funny.

 

[HuskylnSC]

I agree that Aston isn't much of a developer but slow feet plus slow reactions is never a good match.

Typically bigs develop slower in college. Being 6'5" is an awesome weapon that really is pushed to apply the training from most coaches. Quicker feet and better hand reactions will happen if she receives the coaching on in game play-by-play preparation and applies herself.

 

[DefenseBB]

Good Lord, Charli Collier has played in 7 or 8 games and it is already decided that Karen Aston should have developed her talent by now?

I agree that condemning Charli Collier on this small sample is ludicrous.
For the uninitiated on UT Basketball:
Gail Goestenkors was 5yrs 102-62 (Big 12 rec 40-42 never higher than 4th). 5 NCAAs -2nd round with 4 first round exits.
Karen Aston is 142-62 (6yrs before this season) and Big 12 rec. 70-38 with 3-2nds; 2-3rds and 1-8th place finish (in her first year). NCAA's 1-2nd round, 3-Sweet 16's; 1-Elite 8 and her first year did not qualify.

Her recruiting has been outstanding. Her offensive coaching is subpar and is usually predicated on dribble drive. With the plethora of McDonald's AA's she has already coached:
2014-#3 Atkins/#29 McCarty;
2015-#7 Higgs/#16 Hosey/#71 Aborawa;
2016-#2 Holmes/#6 Sutton;
2017-#3 Boothe/#4 Patterson/#33 Littleton
McCarty did win Big 12 POY her junior year and Atkins is in the WNBA. Higgs just got hurt and Sutton is a good player. Boothe left, Patterson (transferred!), Littleton is averaging 8.8 points.
NONE of them became AA's which given their HS ranking #3, #7, #2 and #6 is kind of disheartening.

Going forward, does anyone think Holmes, Higgs or Sutton will become an AA over the next two years? I don't. They are nice players but given Karen's style, not going to develop. That said, Karen has made Texas sort of relevant. BTW, Texas has only been to 3 Final Fours (last in 2002), 4 if you count AIAW in 1982 so lets not wax poetically about what a storied program they have. They don't.

 

[DefenseBB]

I saw most of the Oklahoma-DePaul game. Neither team distinguished itself. In the first half, Oklahoma looked bewildered and lost, played almost no defense, and couldn’t make a shot. DePauls greatest challenge was avoiding defenders that were standing around with confused looks on their faces.

The second half was better for OK as DePaul exposed all of its weaknesses. Sherri Coale switched her team defense to a zone (I couldn’t identify what OK was trying to do in the first hal) and DePaul was missing its threes. DePaul panicked when its 27 point lead was cut and OK was able to get the difference down to 6 before DePaul got its collective head together.

Oklahoma plays hard but it has the look of a team that’s still a work in progress.

Thanks Nan, I know Geno and Sherri are close but her trend is definitely dropping since 2013 and really peaked in 2009. That game is not going to be close and I think this year will be rough for her from what the results are that I have seen. Her contract is at $1.1 Mil through 2021 and that's a lot for slightly above average results. Could she be in trouble?

 

[Justavisitor]

Going forward, does anyone think Holmes, Higgs or Sutton will become an AA over the next two years? I don't. They are nice players but given Karen's style, not going to develop. That said, Karen has made Texas sort of relevant. BTW, Texas has only been to 3 Final Fours (last in 2002), 4 if you count AIAW in 1982 so lets not wax poetically about what a storied program they have. They don't.

Holmes, if she can stay healthy, will be an AA. Her development over the summer was going great until the ankle injury. I'm sure it doesn't hurt having had Tina Thompson around and then Jackson now. Holmes just needs an injury free body so she can work on her game, which happens in the off season.

 

[skilz]

I agree that condemning Charli Collier on this small sample is ludicrous.
For the uninitiated on UT Basketball:
Gail Goestenkors was 5yrs 102-62 (Big 12 rec 40-42) never higher than 4th. 1 time in the NCAA 2nd round with 4 first round exits.
Karen Aston is 142-62 (6yrs before this season) and Big 12 rec. 70-38 with 3-2nds; 2-3rds and 1-8th (in her first year). 1-2nd round, 3-Sweet 16's; 1-Elite 8 and her first year did not qualify.

Her recruiting has been outstanding. Her offensive coaching is subpar and is usually predicated on dribble drive. With the plethora of McDonald's AA's she has already coached:
2014-#3 Atkins/#29 McCarty;
2015-#7 Higgs/#16 Hosey/#71 Aborawa;
2016-#2 Holmes/#6 Sutton;
2017-#3 Boothe/#4 Patterson/#33 Littleton
McCarty did win Big 12 POY her junior year and Atkins is in the WNBA. Higgs just got hurt and Sutton is a good player. Boothe left, Patterson is hurt, Littleton is averaging 8.8 points.
NONE of them became AA's with given #3, #7, #2 and #6 is kind of disheartening.

Going forward, does anyone think Holmes, Higgs or Sutton will become an AA over the next two years? I don't. They are nice players but given Karen's style, not going to develop. That said, Karen has made Texas sort of relevant. BTW, Texas has only been to 3 Final Fours (last in 2002), 4 if you count AIAW in 1982 so lets not wax poetically about what a storied program they have. They don't.

Patterson transferred out of Texas.

 

[DefenseBB]

Patterson transferred out of Texas.

Doh! Even worse for Karen...Thanks for the update...

 

[MilfordHusky]

It's far too early to tell how good Charli will be. In the Jordan Brand game, she looked content to shoot the 3-ball. Shakira Austin was by far the most aggressive "big." Olivia showed some skills as well.

Charli's stats, against mixed competition (cupcakes, plus Michigan, Quinnipiac, Tennessee, and Mississippi State):

15.8 mpg

Shooting: .411/.400/.706.

6.7 ppg

4.1 rpg

A:TO: 2:20!

9 blocks

4 steals

 

[shinobimono]

I am secretly hoping that ASU is a 3-4 seed in the Albany bracket come tournament time and that Courtney gets to end her career playing against UCONN.

You might like to see that (why I don't know, since you know she will lose), but I'll bet Courtney doesn't want to end her career in a losing effort to UConn. A bit of a sting, I would guess. Wouldn't it be better to end a career on a high note with a win?

 

[JonathanXIV]

You might like to see that (why I don't know, since you know she will lose), but I'll bet Courtney doesn't want to end her career in a losing effort to UConn. A bit of a sting, I would guess. Wouldn't it be better to end a career on a high note with a win?

Unless ASU wins the national championships, or fails to make the tournament, she is going to end her career with a loss. I'm sure she would rather lose a game in the tournament than not make the tournament at all. Unlike UConn, most teams don't get to end their season with a win.

 

[willtalk]

I am secretly hoping that ASU is a 3-4 seed in the Albany bracket come tournament time and that Courtney gets to end her career playing against UCONN.

Basketball is a game of Timing and matchups. ASU matches up well with Uconn. Add that fact to " the any given night factor" and a win by Uconn is not assured. ASU is one of those teams, while not being constructed to go all the way, never the less is a difficult match up for most teams on any given night. I believe most teams would prefer not to play them in the NCAA's. They are the type of team that ends up knocking out a favorite.

 

[shinobimono]

Unless ASU wins the national championships, or fails to make the tournament, she is going to end her career with a loss. I'm sure she would rather lose a game in the tournament than not make the tournament at all. Unlike UConn, most teams don't get to end their season with a win.

True, but as an ex-UConn player, I would at least wish her to win (not against UCONN, of course) than lose, regardless of the odds of that happening. As I said, I think ending her career with a loss against UConn would be a bitter pill to swallow, given her desire to succeed here, and the unfortunate ankle/foot injury she suffered at a key juncture, so I'm not wishing that her career end that way against UConn. Of course it could, and that would be that.

 

[j66kicker]

Basketball is a game of Timing and matchups. ASU matches up well with Uconn. Add that fact to " the any given night factor" and a win by Uconn is not assured. ASU is one of those teams, while not being constructed to go all the way, never the less is a difficult match up for most teams on any given night. I believe most teams would prefer not to play them in the NCAA's. They are the type of team that ends up knocking out a favorite.

I don't see it. I went to the ASU-Baylor game. ASU played them tough for most of the game, but Baylor finally got it together and did what it took to win. The ASU players for the most part just aren't elite athletes at the level of UConn, Baylor, etc. Later in the season a well-coached team of elite athletes should go through them like butter.

 

[LoTrader]

I don't see it. I went to the ASU-Baylor game. ASU played them tough for most of the game, but Baylor finally got it together and did what it took to win. The ASU players for the most part just aren't elite athletes at the level of UConn, Baylor, etc. Later in the season a well-coached team of elite athletes should go through them like butter.

I watched the ASU vs Baylor game, and it could just as easily be attributed to early season vs late season polish. There are few "well-coached" teams with "elite" athletes in any given year. I see "well-coached" but not "elite" athletes, and "elite" athletes but non "well-coached". UCONN is the only team over the past 10 years that consistently has "well-coached" and "elite" athletes. From year to year, there are other teams that fit the description. MSU is a team that I think has fit that description best (other than UCONN) the past few years.

 

[CocoHusky]

You might like to see that (why I don't know, since you know she will lose), but I'll bet Courtney doesn't want to end her career in a losing effort to UConn. A bit of a sting, I would guess. Wouldn't it be better to end a career on a high note with a win?

I want to see that (ASU in Albany) because I will be in Albany and I want to see Courtney play. That's a pipe dream to wish Courtney a win in her last game unless ASU goes to the NIT. Otherwise I'm rooting against UCONN- NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

True, but as an ex-UConn player, I would at least wish her to win (not against UCONN, of course) than lose, regardless of the odds of that happening. As I said, I think ending her career with a loss against UConn would be a bitter pill to swallow, given her desire to succeed here, and the unfortunate ankle/foot injury she suffered at a key juncture, so I'm not wishing that her career end that way against UConn. Of course it could, and that would be that.

What ankle/ foot injury? You can't have it both ways. The way it works is that we wish the players that leave UCONN well unless they are playing against UCONN. If ASU plays UCONN I got UCONN. You?

 

[MSSportsGuy]

While she may not be in the coaching elite just yet Aston has been a huge upgrade from Goestenkors and has been able to get some top players to Austin. Holmes has the tools to be great. Her suspension and injury no doubt slowed her down but she is very gifted athletically and has skills. I suppose it's fair to say Aston's underachieved given the recruits she's brought in but they haven't exactly been a bad team either. Some attrition was inevitable given how crowded the bench was with highly touted players and only a few can playa at one time.

Part of the TX program "tradition" is they were another big university, like Tennessee, who had an independent women's athletic department and I believe is the only one who still does. Jody Conradt was a good coach and stayed around for many years, making a lot of friends and being a good ambassador of the game. Texas is also one of the largest and wealthiest public universities in the country so any achievement will be magnified by the media. You can't compare their success to UConn or UT but they are a relevant program.

 

[shinobimono]

I want to see that (ASU in Albany) because I will be in Albany and I want to see Courtney play. That's a pipe dream to wish Courtney a win in her last game unless ASU goes to the NIT. Otherwise I'm rooting against UCONN- NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

What ankle/ foot injury? You can't have it both ways. The way it works is that we wish the players that leave UCONN well unless they are playing against UCONN. If ASU plays UCONN I got UCONN. You?

In hindsight, my original post was not so clear, but my meaning was somewhat clarified in another post (the third above this post and quoted below) which you also quoted, so perhaps you read past it. I made it clear, NOT AGAINST UCONN.

"True, but as an ex-UConn player, I would at least wish her to win (not against UCONN, of course) than lose, regardless of the odds of that happening. As I said, I think ending her career with a loss against UConn would be a bitter pill to swallow, given her desire to succeed here, and the unfortunate ankle/foot injury she suffered at a key juncture, so I'm not wishing that her career end that way against UConn. Of course it could, and that would be that."

Again, you missed the bolded text above that you quoted, which renders your question moot. The point that I was trying to make, unsuccessfully it seems, was that you, as a fan, might like to see UConn play ASU and Courtney in the NCAA tournament, but on the other hand, Courtney might not like to as it would be a certain loss, if not a blowout, and possibly a sad reminder to her of what could have been (i.e., a successful career at UConn). Therefore, she might like to end her career just about any other way than to lose in a humiliating blowout to UConn in the tournament, which is to say, she would probably prefer to lose to a team other than UCONN for the reasons mentioned above, and I wouldn't blame her.
Sorry for the unclarities in my post and if it appeared that I was wishing that ASU win against UConn, agreed...NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

 

[CocoHusky]

You really need to see some more games because there are so many more good coaches in WCBB. If you get a chance buy a ticket or at least watch when these games are on TV.
Nebraska- Amy Williams
Oregon State- Scott Rueck
Florida State- Sue Semrau
Virginia Tech- Kenny Brooks
Oregon-Kelly Graves
Arizona State Charli Turner-Thorne
Michigan-Kim Barnes Arico
Oklahoma-Sherri Coale
California-Lindsay Gottlieb
Tina Thompson-Virginia off to a rough start at but give her some time.