Was Walz's game plan Legit?

[Tufkas]

Reid had two shots, not 1-and-1. Still a lot of pressure but not nearly as much as 1-and-1.

Thought so - but then I thought I later heard ESPN saying it was a one and one - thanks for the correction.

Absolutely agreed - knowing she only needed 1 of 2 to tie makes a huge difference.

But the pressure on that first one knowing that she'd just missed, and that if she did so again, she'd absolutely have to hit the second was still massive...

 

[JoePgh]

Meanwhile, I have a simple question as one who watched only the last quarter of the game. Apparently, in the part of the game that I didn't watch, Schoni Schimmel got a technical for taunting Griner. If that is the case, why didn't the T that she got along with Sims for the incident late in the game result in her being ejected then for 2 technical fouls?

 

[Icebear]

Thought so - but then I thought I later heard ESPN saying it was a one and one - thanks for the correction.

Absolutely agreed - knowing she only needed 1 of 2 to tie makes a huge difference.

But the pressure on that first one knowing that she'd just missed, and that if she did so again, she'd absolutely have to hit the second was still massive...

I think they were referring to the previous trip to the foul line when Reid missed the front end of a 1 and 1.

 

[LIUCHusky]

Meanwhile, I have a simple question as one who watched only the last quarter of the game. Apparently, in the part of the game that I didn't watch, Schoni Schimmel got a technical for taunting Griner. If that is the case, why didn't the T that she got along with Sims for the incident late in the game result in her being ejected then for 2 technical fouls?

Schimmel did not get a technical for taunting Griner, though probably should have.

 

[Pete]

Meanwhile, I have a simple question as one who watched only the last quarter of the game. Apparently, in the part of the game that I didn't watch, Schoni Schimmel got a technical for taunting Griner. If that is the case, why didn't the T that she got along with Sims for the incident late in the game result in her being ejected then for 2 technical fouls?

She didn't get a T for taunting BG

 

[UConnCat]

Meanwhile, I have a simple question as one who watched only the last quarter of the game. Apparently, in the part of the game that I didn't watch, Schoni Schimmel got a technical for taunting Griner. If that is the case, why didn't the T that she got along with Sims for the incident late in the game result in her being ejected then for 2 technical fouls?

Shoni did not receive a technical after taunting Griner although one clearly should have been called.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Physical play - talk to players back in the day, and it ain't different. Heck, as Kara about fouls/mugging etc.

I haven't researched officiating recently, but I do know there's been a huge change at the NCAA in the last few years as it pertains to wbball - Scottie Rogers, top Media person, leaves somewhat oddly. Dr. Brand dies, VP Sue Donohoe, who initiated the "transparency" in the selection process by creating the mock brackets, leaves somewhat oddly. Supervisor of officials, Mary Struckhoff, who also pushed for more transparency/evaluations/new blood, leaves somewhat oddly. Greg Shaheen is ousted.... And that only what I, as an outsider, know about.

 

[Forty_four]

Meanwhile, I have a simple question as one who watched only the last quarter of the game. Apparently, in the part of the game that I didn't watch, Schoni Schimmel got a technical for taunting Griner. If that is the case, why didn't the T that she got along with Sims for the incident late in the game result in her being ejected then for 2 technical fouls?

She did not get a T for the Griner taunt.

 

[Bestiarius]

I disagree with those who question Walz' tactical smarts here. He analyzed the talents he had and devised a game plan ("claw and 1") that maximized his chances to win.

Was he lucky? Of course! His team came in averaging 5 three's a game, and tallied 16 on 64% shooting percentage - 16 points higher than their 2 pt percentage.

So what?

His plan - tactically - was not dissimilar to UConn's earlier this season - a defender front and back, straight up to avoid fouling the shooter, with weakside help. Unfortunately, UConn "for some unknown reason" (paraphrasing, if not quoting coach Auriemma) abandoned it in the second half, despite a successful result. Louisville did not.

Set aside the officiating - it is what it is. We've all seen it, experienced it. Did we see anything worse from these three than what we've already seen from Dennis DeMayo, Dee Kantner, Lisa Mattingly and Bonita Spence?

To me, to focus there is just wrong.

All the credit in the world to Louisville's coach and his players for an astonishing game. From Slaughter's and the Schimmel sisters' threes to Shoni's unbelievable blind "and 1" over Griner.

And to Monique Reid who stepped to the foul line with 2 seconds to go, down 1, staring at a 1 and 1 - after having missed the front end of the same just 29 seconds earlier. Knowing that if she missed the first, her team loses (for perspective please see UConn - Notre Dame). This time, she stepped up, made BOTH and sealed one of the greatest upsets in WCBB history.

Too bad - I liked the idea that if Notre Dame were to somehow get to the championship game, Baylor would probably send who is now the remaining "one to watch" off to the WNBA without a championship...

I agree Walz' plan was masterful as was his players carrying it out to the last second without losing their concentration. But, and I'll have to view the game again to be sure, the defenders were not just fronting and backing Griner. They were giving her every cheap shot they could muster. Fist to the neck, flailing fingers in the face, etc. Griner isn't strong or bulky enough to live through that. The point is, lots of illegal tactics were used as opposed to just crowding her.

Shoni's, as you called it, blind and 1 shot will be remembered for a long, long time. And it was pure skill, not luck. For it to happen at such a critical moment, and considering who was defending it, well, just a magnificent moment in basketball history.

And the two magical clutch foul shots, made by a poor foul shooter who was put in the spotlight after a long, injury ridden, less than illustrious career. One can't help but feel good about a player who persevered, conquered her limitations, and came out a winner.

 

[pinotbear]

Physical play - talk to players back in the day, and it ain't different. Heck, as Kara about fouls/mugging etc.

I haven't researched officiating recently, but I do know there's been a huge change at the NCAA in the last few years as it pertains to wbball - Scottie Rogers, top Media person, leaves somewhat oddly. Dr. Brand dies, VP Sue Donohoe, who initiated the "transparency" in the selection process by creating the mock brackets, leaves somewhat oddly. Supervisor of officials, Mary Struckhoff, who also pushed for more transparency/evaluations/new blood, leaves somewhat oddly. Greg Shaheen is ousted.... And that only what I, as an outsider, know about.

TJI - thanks for posting this. I knew about Dr. Brand, but had no idea that there had been so much turnover, much less that any of it might be out of the ordinary. Anybody else have any info?

 

[HGN]

Walz's game plan was very legit...... Did Louisville foul Griner a few times........Absolutely. And the ref's never called it. It's the same game plan that Muffet uses against UConn. Have your players play the opponent physically , but complain when they do the same to you. Have you ever sat and watched a ND vs UConn game and said that ND players never seem to foul UConn , but UConn players can't even get near Diggins without a whistle ?? Walz even complained when he thought a couple of his own players got fouled. Walz forced the ref's to either blow or swallow their whistle.

It was a legit game plan. Fortunately for him and Louisville, it worked in his favor all game long.

 

[5sidedlarry]

Pershaps it was covered in the game thread but, was the coverage of BG legal?

Obviously, the Cards were willing to sacrifice A LOT of fouls but, was the strategy "You can't call 'em all?

PS: I have no knowledge of the finer point but, appeared to me that LOU was fouling BG fon about every play, no?

PPS: I wouldn't want to see the same treatment on Stefanie Dolson 0 Though I KNOW she gets banged around every game.

PPPS: I was happy to see Baylor eliminated.

it was legit as long as there is no grabbing or pushing off a spot they both have a right to go to a spot..what they really were trying to do is take up her feet space so she couldn't move..i know that sounds stupid but it is not the first time it has been done,one time she almost fell out of bounds because she couldn't keep her balance..

i truly believe that the only way womens basketball is going to get bigger is by having these upsets of the higher ranked teams..what we need is better teams at the bottom of the rankings

 

[bertieboy]

Brand was not triple teamed, he was double teamed. He was guarded by our center and as soon as he got the ball the forward on that side of the court guarded him as well. He was defended tightly but he was definitely not mugged. Our remaining three players played zone on Duke's 4. It was a masterful piece of coaching by Calhoun.

 

[UcMiami]

I didn't watch the game, but ... Walz basically said I am going to let you play 4 against 2.5 players on offense but you do not get Griner. And Kim and Baylor did not step up to the plate. Junk defenses have existed since the first basketball was tossed up, and sometimes they work. I would guess Kim should have moved Griner further from the lane and worked the 4 on 3 to create serious mismatches and a lot of lay-ups.
And as others have said - if a team hits 16 of 25 on threes against you the chance of you winning the game is pretty low. Seems to me that Uconn experienced that on at least one occasion in the NCAAs and at least once in the Big East tournament.
As for the physicality - post play is always physical, especially in the NCAAs and refs on both the men's and women's side have a tough time - you do not want to turn the game completely into a free throw shooting contest, but you have to keep control. I did see the earlier clip of SS jawing at Griner after the 'and 1' and thought a T or at least a stern warning should have been issued then. The later double T was probably specifically a result of that earlier situation not causing any reaction from the refs. Louisville certainly had a ton of fouls called on them and lost three starters, and I think Baylor benefitted from the no calls in the last ten minutes as well, as from the clips they were giving it out pretty well in the last 10 minutes.
I don't care for what happens with the clutching and bumping of cutters in the game, but it happens in all team sports and at all levels. Makes for a less 'pretty' game, but it is what it is. What is bad in WCBB is the inconsistency within games and the occasional absolute howler of a missed call. That drives coaches, players, and fans crazy because they can't adjust when the standards vary minute to minute.

 

[Tufkas]

Shoni's, as you called it, blind and 1 shot will be remembered for a long, long time. And it was pure skill, not luck.

Agreed. She is irrepressible and undeniably talented. A talent and coach most likely perfectly matched.

I think they were referring to the previous trip to the foul line when Reid missed the front end of a 1 and 1.

Ice - you're right. That's what I get for watching SportsCenter half awake...

 

[Bigpetunia]

I realize that my opinion on this is not shared by many, or even most, but here goes: I not only think Walz's plan was legit...it is exactly what most of us would call for if we coached against Baylor, just as, incidentally, so many coaches do when game planning against us - a tactic that certainly derailed a large portion of Stewie's Freshman year in particular. The question would not even be raised, in my opinion, if such a strategy were employed by, say, a Boeheim or a Pitino against a dominant post player on the mens' side. We tend, I think, to get stuck in the old ways of thinking about this sport as "girls'" basketball...it's not, not at the highest level. No double standard is required here...this is a young womens' hard-nosed game today, with high stakes and high potential rewards. The pressure to win at this level is huge, and the players, in my opinion, accept some of the physical realities that go with that scenario better than some of the fans. Kim Mulkey griping about this is the height of hypocrisy, since it's a tactic that she and her players (Oddysey in particular) will employ at any opportunity, as they did last night. Did the refs let it all go too far? Possibly. Do the refs need to impose a little more control? Possibly, but one cannot contend, looking at the foul stats, that Baylor was disproportionally disadvantaged. This is what the womens' game has evolved into, and, like it or not, it's here to stay. I have NO problem with that.

 

[UcMiami]

BigP - good post and I agree that this is the 'cost' of allowing women to actually compete at sports (Joke, joke, please do not ban me!)
The only thing I would add is that I do not think the quality of the refs has kept up with the quality of the competition in WCBB. And it is not necessarily the 'control' issue - refs in every sport at every level sometimes lose control of the game. The problem as I stated above is the consistency within games to call the same fouls both ways from start to finish. In that respect, I actually thought the refs did pretty well in this game as when Baylor finally awoke and started giving as good as they got during the last 10 minutes, they were given the same latitude.

 

[UConnChapette]

How many of the NCAAW refs are former players? Would former players make good refs, or would they be worse? I would think they would make for better refs. They have been in the trenches, know what is and is not a true foul. I suppose there is always the question of could they be impartial. I just have never thought of what qualifies someone to be a ref.

 

[UConnChapette]

How many of the NCAAW refs are former players? Would former players make good refs, or would they be worse? I would think they would make for better refs. They have been in the trenches, know what is and is not a true foul. I suppose there is always the question of could they be impartial. I just have never thought of what qualifies someone to be a ref.

Did some googling - yes, it is a verb now.

Dee Kantner was a field hockey player. Can't find much information on some of the other officiating "stars" of the game

 

[UcMiami]

How many of the NCAAW refs are former players? Would former players make good refs, or would they be worse? I would think they would make for better refs. They have been in the trenches, know what is and is not a true foul. I suppose there is always the question of could they be impartial. I just have never thought of what qualifies someone to be a ref.

I think the biggest requirement is someone who is willing to work a second job (the reffing) for very little pay that includes a lot of travel and staying in crap hotels. Oh yeah, and everyone you see on your travels is going to think you are a terrible excuse for a human being!

 

[Oxford Bob]

Did some googling - yes, it is a verb now.

Dee Kantner was a field hockey player. Can't find much information on some of the other officiating "stars" of the game

I have to assume most are former players at different levels (Div. I, II,or III) and those who aren't where most likely very good athletes in other sports.

 

[easttexastrash]

His game plan was disgusting and as has been said about Griner, I hope karma gets Walz. His "game plan" was not to take away BG's feet, it was to beat the crap out of her.

Check out my new avatar. This is what Walz' gamelan consisted of.

 

[easttexastrash]

 

[sarals24]

I can't fault Walz for this one. He had a plan, which was to basically force the rest of the Baylor team to beat them. And they didn't. The few times that Griner did get the ball she didn't go aggressively to the basket. The last play of the game she was completely out of position.

I am not a huge Walz fan, but credit L'ville with playing their hearts out and pulling off the unthinkable.

 

[easttexastrash]

I can't fault Walz for this one. He had a plan, which was to basically force the rest of the Baylor team to beat them. And they didn't. The few times that Griner did get the ball she didn't go aggressively to the basket. The last play of the game she was completely out of position.

I am not a huge Walz fan, but credit L'ville with playing their hearts out and pulling off the unthinkable.

Winning at all costs is apparently admirable to you.

 

[pap49cba]

This was typical Walz. He employed the exact same tactic against Uconn 2 years ago at Louisville... one of the ugliest, most physical and dirty games I've seen. His comment about playing "street ball" says it all.

 

[Icebear]

Winning at all costs is apparently admirable to you.

It is not Walz fault that the officials did not blow their whistles. Oh wait, they did and called 24 fouls and 3 players fouled out for l-ville. It is all part of the game. Just like the brutality in the UConn - ND games. Accept it and overcome it is what a champion needs to do.

 

[easttexastrash]

I think that the fact this thread was started has already answered the question before us.

 

[easttexastrash]

This was typical Walz. He employed the exact same tactic against Uconn 2 years ago at Louisville... one of the ugliest, most physical and dirty games I've seen. His comment about playing "street ball" says it all.

I watched that game and was stunned during that game. It was ugly and brutal, as well.

 

[housekeys]

I thought Walz was legit. I didn't think any of the plays on BG were dangerous, and if he had employed a more conventional gameplan, they'd have lost by 20. The refs were pretty bad but they missed calls both ways, including a ridiculous double standard on the T called on Walz and not on Mulkey.

I do not mean to pick on your post, but as I read the rest of this thread I see the same comment, highlighted above, mentioned all the time. This remark misses an important point. Missing calls both ways implies neutrality, but this is not true at all. This type of officiating adversely affects the more skilled (in theory, the better) team. To that affect Baylor has legitimate gripe, but LV deserves all the accolades because they did play a phenomenal game.

I also see posters say the refs need to let them play, otherwise there will be a parade to the free throw line. This is not true either. After the initial slew of calls and key players picking up fouls, you will see a much cleaner game, with basketball skills determining the winner. This is what should happen. Unless this was football, rewarding physical play or the ability to play through physicality, is not what this game should be about. BTW, the men's game suffers through the same issues.

Was it legit? Yes. Was it fair? IMO, no. Was it the only way to win? Yes. Was it entertaining? Yes. Do I favor this trend? No, because there are better ways to achieve all of the above without resorting to this style. JMHO.