Vital and Gilbert | Page 9 | The Boneyard

Vital and Gilbert

ctchamps

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Al does need to improve his shooting but what may be a quicker remedy would be less shots from him and more for Polley, Bouk, and Akok.
No argument but if he doesn’t shoot and make some shots then defenders play off him making it harder to distribute the ball to those players.
 
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No argument but if he doesn’t shoot and make some shots then defenders play off him making it harder to distribute the ball to those players.
Just less shots. I think he's averaging about 10 a game.
 
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And citing partial stats do??? Me thinks he's referring to shooting 1-9 as a stat to make his case. So on offense he contributed 9 positives and 11 negatives. This is not the definition of solid. But the statistics demonstrate the need for Gilbert to improve his shooting or else it will be a long season.

All I said was he wasn’t turning the ball over and distributing well, he disagreed.

No one said anything about shooting, obviously Al can’t shoot right now.
 
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What the heck is your deal dude? You completely took my post and put your own spin on it. And in a very aggressive way mind you.

Who said I wanted B Adams at pg?? And did I say Gaffney played well last game? I think he is CAPABLE, key word is CAPABLE of helping us get to the tourney. And let me be clear by help us get to the tourney I mean “ help” as in provide good minutes off the bench. Not take over anyone else’s starting position or anything.

He has the skill set he’s just timid out there right now which is why I want us to use the next few cupcake games to get him more burn and more comfortable out there.

And I never said anything about Bouk playing PG either.

Literally the only thing I wanna see is all those guys I mentioned get either more time on the floor (Gaffney, B Adams) and more shots up (Bouk, Polley , Akok). Now go lower your blood pressure please.

What's my deal dude? Aggressive? Wow you need some thicker skin. I merely answered your "younger guys need to take some minutes away" thoughts with the facts. I wasn't aggressive or even disagreeing completely just talking as we see it right now. We have no one to impact this team from a high volume of minutes at the PG unfortunately to grab a ton of minutes from AG. He, for now, is the only one I see who can get us to even sniff the tourney and forcing minutes on Gaffney is not the answer until he proves he can impact the team in a positive manner. He dribbles around the perimeter, rarely making a positive move to the basket. And he's not close on the defensive end although he has shown improvement. We need a better Gaffney, hell he's a big part of the future but for now he isn't close. Maybe the "cupcakes" help but right after the cupcakes is league games which we need to win every game possible. Hope he becomes a bigger piece of a successful season but if AG plays the way he should we need 30-35 out of him anyway.

Now that's just the PG. Bouk needs to earn some minutes too but we need him to do just that. He's an impact kid and need him to become exactly what he can be and soon. His ability brings too much potential to the offense which we need desperately so I hope he finds a way to get 20-25 minutes at least a game very soon this squad needs his skill set on the floor.
 
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And citing partial stats do??? Me thinks he's referring to shooting 1-9 as a stat to make his case. So on offense he contributed 9 positives and 11 negatives. This is not the definition of solid. But the statistics demonstrate the need for Gilbert to improve his shooting or else it will be a long season.

11 negatives? That's unfair everyone misses shots, maybe not as many at AG right now but let's not bring that into the negative area. Hell Harden would be a pitiful NBA player half the time if that were the case fleudy.
 
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We need a starting point we have a couple of backups. Gilbert had a couple of descent games dishing the ball and lately he is back to himself making bad decisions and awful shots.

Lately is one game and only part of it. We don't have capable back ups or they'd be playing more. He needs to play as we need him to or we will be looking at a similar season as the last few.
 
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Al does need to improve his shooting but what may be a quicker remedy would be less shots from him and more for Polley, Bouk, and Akok.

Agree on this. And I hate pointing to the staff but I watch a lot of college games. What I see is teams with a good shooter or shooters able to get open looks for them when they need to. We haven't done that for Tyler or others, especially Tyler. He's been forced to take defended shots way too often only getting open looks off loose balls and rebounds, rarely off a set play. We need to get him open, double picks whatever it takes. He is targeted now and who can blame the other teams he can make shots. Get him open and get Bouk in the game at the same time when needed. The last game when we came out of a TO and needed a hoop to see Bouk in the bench was a head scratcher!?!??!
 

evmore

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I’d like to see either Gilbert or Vital come off the bench. Both seem to make a lot of mistakes, and I think by starting Bouknight over one of them (and maybe both Bouknight and Gaffney over Vital and Gilbert) we will be a better team by the end of the season. I don’t know how Hurley doesn’t see that both of them are liabilities - they both cost us vs Xavier and are gonna cost us tonight vs Indiana. Does anyone else see this and agree?
I don't think AG is a bench player.. Even with his shooting down he is best suited to run the offense. CV is another story.. His defense is what makes him start on this team. I sensed that there might be some jealousy over Bouknight's early media hype/attention, and that would only make CV press more offensively trying to prove himself. Swapping the two and letting CV come in looking to score might solve some of that, or it might mess with their chemistry even more. We definitely need a boost.. It was as if they were playing a game to 15 vs Indiana.. once we got to 15-6 and started chest-bumping i started to worry,.
 
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I don't think AG is a bench player.. Even with his shooting down he is best suited to run the offense. CV is another story.. His defense is what makes him start on this team. I sensed that there might be some jealousy over Bouknight's early media hype/attention, and that would only make CV press more offensively trying to prove himself. Swapping the two and letting CV come in looking to score might solve some of that, or it might mess with their chemistry even more. We definitely need a boost.. It was as if they were playing a game to 15 vs Indiana.. once we got to 15-6 and started chest-bumping i started to worry,.

Great points and really interesting on the Bouk thoughts, could be spot on.
 

Waquoit

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Swapping the two and letting CV come in looking to score might solve some of that, or it might mess with their chemistry even more.
That's the rub. Would CV's demotion hurt the team more through his being disruptive? Who cares, I say make the change. The status quo is unacceptable.
 

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That's the rub. Would CV's demotion hurt the team more through his being disruptive? Who cares, I say make the change. The status quo is unacceptable.
Playing time is earned through defense. Mess with that premise and you lose your identity. Bouk hasn't earned it yet.
 
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Playing time is earned through defense. Mess with that premise and you lose your identity. Bouk hasn't earned it yet.

Agree with you both strangely enough LOL. Tough one need Bouk's presence but need Vitals toughness although he needs to shoot a lot better and turn it over a lot less. Tough call Bouk has to guard better though, I think he can rebound it a lot like Christian.
 

Waquoit

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Playing time is earned through defense. Mess with that premise and you lose your identity. Bouk hasn't earned it yet.
Why do people assume because someone can't shoot they are good on D? Then you actually watch them and they are getting beat twice in a row by some guy on Maine.

Besides those are just words. If they were written in stone UConn would have zero titles because KEA would have never played.
 
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Agree on this. And I hate pointing to the staff but I watch a lot of college games. What I see is teams with a good shooter or shooters able to get open looks for them when they need to. We haven't done that for Tyler or others, especially Tyler. He's been forced to take defended shots way too often only getting open looks off loose balls and rebounds, rarely off a set play. We need to get him open, double picks whatever it takes. He is targeted now and who can blame the other teams he can make shots. Get him open and get Bouk in the game at the same time when needed. The last game when we came out of a TO and needed a hoop to see Bouk in the bench was a head scratcher!?!??!

Actually, what I see is teams with good spacing and crisp passing who force defenders to commit to one shooter while leaving another open.

The problem isn't that we don't try to get looks for Polley. The issue is that we don't have 2 other threats standing at the perimeter. It's easy to key on one guy.
 

ctchamps

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11 negatives? That's unfair everyone misses shots, maybe not as many at AG right now but let's not bring that into the negative area. Hell Harden would be a pitiful NBA player half the time if that were the case fleudy.
Out of the 18 statistically documented offensive opportunities Al was involved with there were eleven offensive possessions that failed in scoring versus nine that resulted in scores. It wasn’t my intention to diss Alterique but to give an approximately accurate accounting of possessions Al was involved with in the Indiana game.

Stats do not describe motion offense such as setting picks which a player contributes but does not get statistical credit so they are incomplete but I believe in the case I made the stats indicate enough to demonstrate that Al, on the offensive side of things, did not have a “solid” offensive performance in the Indiana game which was declared by a poster who only pointed out the 8 assists to 3 turnovers.

The debatable discussion boils down to the weight that should be given to attributes and shortcomings players offer in a game. We all have our biases. Currently imo Alterique is the only player who can create and distribute with efficiency although an argument can be made for Brendan.

However both have demonstrated shortcomings. Al struggles finishing at the basket and is shooting worse than Tarin Smith. Brendan does not have as tight a handle limiting his ability to drive but is shooting decently. I would consider both as showing only average or slightly above average passing so far. This last point is personal observation based on passes and how those passes offer the recipient the ease of completing a play.

It would be nice if a player did not get penalized with not getting an assist because it was not his responsibility the attempt failed. On the other hand I’d like to see the player not given credit if the receiving player bailed out the passer. In the Indiana game Josh did both. Additionally I believe he was credited with at least one turnover because of a poor pass or a pass made that shouldn’t have been made.

As an aside I find it interesting that people reduce value to the defense of our starting guards (prevention of players driving to the basket, steals, disruption of opposing sets, timing their release in defending to get a defensive rebound) when we lose. We do this even as we laud Ricky Moore or the defensive play of Bazz and Boat. We do this knowing that JC made it a point to cut off the head of an opposing team’s offense. In general this forum doesn’t discuss that play or consider it in evaluating a player’s overall value in a game. It’s casual assessment and sloppy analysis.
 

ctchamps

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Actually, what I see is teams with good spacing and crisp passing who force defenders to commit to one shooter while leaving another open.

The problem isn't that we don't try to get looks for Polley. The issue is that we don't have 2 other threats standing at the perimeter. It's easy to key on one guy.
We also lack the players who can set decent picks or screens. Has there been a game in which Josh did not pick up at least one foul as the result of releasing too quickly?
 
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Out of the 18 statistically documented offensive opportunities Al was involved with there were eleven offensive possessions that failed in scoring versus nine that resulted in scores. It wasn’t my intention to diss Alterique but to give an approximately accurate accounting of possessions Al was involved with in the Indiana game.

Stats do not describe motion offense such as setting picks which a player contributes but does not get statistical credit so they are incomplete but I believe in the case I made the stats indicate enough to demonstrate that Al, on the offensive side of things, did not have a “solid” offensive performance in the Indiana game which was declared by a poster who only pointed out the 8 assists to 3 turnovers.

The debatable discussion boils down to the weight that should be given to attributes and shortcomings players offer in a game. We all have our biases. Currently imo Alterique is the only player who can create and distribute with efficiency although an argument can be made for Brendan.

However both have demonstrated shortcomings. Al struggles finishing at the basket and is shooting worse than Tarin Smith. Brendan does not have as tight a handle limiting his ability to drive but is shooting decently. I would consider both as showing only average or slightly above average passing so far. This last point is personal observation based on passes and how those passes offer the recipient the ease of completing a play.

It would be nice if a player did not get penalized with not getting an assist because it was not his responsibility the attempt failed. On the other hand I’d like to see the player not given credit if the receiving player bailed out the passer. In the Indiana game Josh did both. Additionally I believe he was credited with at least one turnover because of a poor pass or a pass made that shouldn’t have been made.

As an aside I find it interesting that people reduce value to the defense of our starting guards (prevention of players driving to the basket, steals, disruption of opposing sets, timing their release in defending to get a defensive rebound) when we lose. We do this even as we laud Ricky Moore or the defensive play of Bazz and Boat. We do this knowing that JC made it a point to cut off the head of an opposing team’s offense. In general this forum doesn’t discuss that play or consider it in evaluating a player’s overall value in a game. It’s casual assessment and sloppy analysis.

This is another point worth noting... preventing points can be just as important as scoring them - and frankly for all of their offensive shortcomings - both CV and Gilbert and defend pretty well. Gaffney's just not that good defensively and for as good as he is offensively - I've been really, really underwhelmed by Bouknight's defense. It's sloppy and handsy.

It's not really that cut and dry of a situation.
 

ctchamps

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This is another point worth noting... preventing points can be just as important as scoring them - and frankly for all of their offensive shortcomings - both CV and Gilbert and defend pretty well. Gaffney's just not that good defensively and for as good as he is offensively - I've been really, really underwhelmed by Bouknight's defense. It's sloppy and handsy.

It's not really that cut and dry of a situation.
CV should never be running point. But that really isn't his fault. The problem primarily lies with a decent and reliable back up to Alterique when he's in foul trouble or playing poorly.

His shot selection is perceived as horrible. When you're a volume streak shooter, going through slumps and the player who disproportionately takes and misses the last shot in a winnable game if the shot is made there is no way anyone can defend him by pointing out the games he won when his shooting was on. Heck Donyell is still looked at slightly negatively for missing two free throws that could have clinched an NCAA game.

But those two negatives, as important as they are, should not cause an unbiased individual to negate CV's three positives - defensive rebounding, man to man defense, and foul shooting.

Freshman year CV was needed to rebound but he did so by sacrificing defense on his player resulting in a high frequency of that player making 3 pointers. He's essentially eliminated that by improving his timing as to when to leave his player. We don't win our first NC if Rip did not develop a similar timing strength by knowing when to help out on defensive rebounding and when to leak for a fast break. CV is rebounding at an astounding rate for a guard and not given credit because of the anger towards his weaknesses.

Examining some other players Brendan appears to be getting this. Tyler is just starting to show hints. People critical of Tyler's rebounding numbers don't understand he's been a great man to man glue guy. He sacrifices looking peripherally and releasing but he's not getting burnt frequently by his players driving to the basket or making 3 pt shots. Akok is a wunderkind. Bouknight is working on just staying with his player and not fouling him when the opposing player gets a step on him. When his lateral reflexes improve he will defend better, get more playing time, and I believe be an excellent defensive rebounder. Jalen is just getting used to college speed. Al is too short.

I'll add one more thing - how I believe CV should be played at the end of a tight game. @Waquoit proposes he shouldn't be in the game at that critical point. Actually he'd like to see him traded. But his first recommendation isn't without merit. It's a toss up based on attributes versus liabilities. There are three attributes versus two liabilities but imo, and someone can verify the data, CV's excellent FT numbers are statistically poor at the end of important close games. Now it's down to an above average defender and rebounder critically necessary at the end of a game for defense and a player who loses composure on the offensive end. If I'm correct, Hurley needs to keep at least one time out at the end of a game to substitute CV out when UConn has a last offensive play to win. Or he needs to understand that with all of CV's bravado, he's a fragile player who loses composure when things get stressful. A team psychologist just might solve many of his problems.
 

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