Well, we are crazy devoted fans so our perception is often jaded. The real issue is the overall quality of officiating in the women's game, which is atrocious in my mind, and why it is that way, and how and when it gets fixed.
Villanova Postgame Thread
- Thread starter oldude
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She is a warrior and in my mind doesn't get enough credit and kudos.Originally I thought Dorka was gassed for quite a bit during the game, however the sprained ankle had a bit to do with her mobility.
Some of this substack article may be behind a paywall:
"In UConn’s final practice before heading to Villanova, Dorka Juhász sprained her ankle in a non-contact incident. The early indications weren’t good.
Notebook: Dorka Juhász guts out double-double in 35 minutes on sprained ankle
Plus, the Huskies display their toughness (again), Lou Lopez Sénéchal bounces back and Nika Mühl plays through foul trouble in the win over Villanova.uconnwbbweekly.substack.com
“I already sprained it, so that kinda was a re-sprain but it got a little worse,” she said. “I was not able to finish the practice. I wasn't really able to bear a lot of weight on it. I did a lot of icing, rehab and obviously, today it was still was pretty much bothering me on every jump, every change of direction.”
“I don’t know if that would’ve happened last year,” Geno Auriemma said.
It wasn’t easy, though. Juhász visibly struggled to get up and down the floor, and tweaked it a few times throughout the game as well. Even still, she only went to the bench twice throughout the entire contest."
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In terms of toughness and intensity, Kia Nurse was certainly one.
UCONN did an outstanding job of defending Villanova and on the flip side Villanova played poor defense. UCONN had so many lay ups in this game it was hard to miss many of them. The only reason this wasn't a blowout was the TOs. I saw many that were credited to the post player but it should have been on the passer who threw the ball into a crowd.
The offense hit some clutch shots but overall they looked like they had tired legs. The decision to make AE the center of the offense and Dorka going to the basket ended up being he difference. The players were amazing, they simply refused to lose this game and the coaches made some great adjustments in the second half.
They have 5-6 players that are as good as any in the country. My concern is still the mindset of playing those five regardless of how tired they get in the game. Geno said in his pregame interview he would need to force himself to play his bench but once the game started it was clear how many would play unless the whole team foulded out.
The offense hit some clutch shots but overall they looked like they had tired legs. The decision to make AE the center of the offense and Dorka going to the basket ended up being he difference. The players were amazing, they simply refused to lose this game and the coaches made some great adjustments in the second half.
They have 5-6 players that are as good as any in the country. My concern is still the mindset of playing those five regardless of how tired they get in the game. Geno said in his pregame interview he would need to force himself to play his bench but once the game started it was clear how many would play unless the whole team foulded out.
meyers7
You Talkin’ To Me?
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Unfortunately, McCarver just passed away a couple days ago.
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Okay, Bone Dog, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. And, actually, it isn't about disagreeing. I agree with nearly all of what you say. However, my point was not about how Lou is consistently held grabbed, etc., or about whether Maddy and her teammates got away with stuff, or about those terrible calls against Nika when Lucy Olsen shoved her, or about that weird jump ball call involving Nika. I'm with you on all of that. Those points are undeniable.
My point was simply that Aaliyah was getting away with fouls while defending Siegrist. If you couldn't see that, no matter how many times you watched the game, well, that's end of story.
As for my favorite players, they are UConn Huskies. Yet I also admire and will make positive points about players like Caitlin Clark, Haley Jones and Siegrist on this board because they're great players, and too many BYers criticize them just because they don't play for UConn.
I'm a UConn fan and am so glad it beat Villanova yesterday. Yet that doesn't keep me from seeing when the Huskies commit fouls or officials blow calls that wind up favoring UConn. Down the road, I surely hope the Huskies get plenty of those breaks! Cheers!
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Love Maddy's game, but she flopped at least twice, and got at least one call for it.
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I never disputed that calls were missed on both sides. I can’t imagine disagreeing about that. I also have said I don’t care for games called too tightly. But this point here is inseparable from what you say you agree with.
Call all the fouls on both teams and Villanova loses by much more. Why? Because the key to stopping Aaliyah was holding her in the paint. Once their primary post defenders had fouled out, sometime mid-3rd quarter I imagine, Aaliyah wouldn’t have needed any help scoring in the paint. All the more so if Burke, Siegrist, Olsen and Mullin got whistled for all the holds on Lou. This is what I observed — and you disliked — in an earlier post about the previous game, which also appeared more competitive than it really was.
Would Aaliyah have fouled out for her defense of Siegrist? No, because she wasn’t her primary defender. Take away the absurd calls on Lou and Nika and no one on UConn is remotely in danger of fouling out covering Siegrist no matter how many touch fouls are called. And the undeniable visual fact is that Maddy was not getting roughed up nearly as hard as Lou.
But who cares about this, really, in the end. We’re seeing the new form of the game, and none of us likes it. Freedom of movement is out the window, a casualty of officials bewildered by all the flopping early in the season. By the time they remember how not to whistle the flops, sometime mid-season, they’ve become inured to all the holds. In the meantime, the rest of the BE thinks they see a way to steal a win against UConn by playing bully ball, not realizing they themselves play the very same style of ball being destroyed by this tactic.
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I agree with your last point, Bone Dog. Otherwise, not so much...
Bad calls on both sides. refs missed several against nova in the first half but yet seemed to make up for them with at least 4 ticky tacky fouls they called on nova. second half, it seemed that ALL of the big calls went against uconn and they were only big bc the calls were so terrible.
that said, i am wearing my husky blue glasses so maybe I'm a bit biased but......lets see,
CD and AE get smacked in the face, no call... as usual lou gets mugged, no call, lou gets fouled while shooting, no call, AE gets fouled on put back, no call, NM gets body checked into another player...foul on NM, NM boxing out and gets a foul, AE reaches around a player and slaps the ball out of bounds and gets called for a foul. i think i have forgotten a few others. now did we play physical with Maddy, well of course we did but I think it was reasonably within the rules of BB.
anyway, we won and played great defense, although nova did miss some open shots. most disappointing is that GA doesnt even think that Yana deserves even a minute of time.
Too many TOs from NM, although as stated before, many of the great assist players of all time, routinely were league leaders in TOs. I don't entirely fault NM for all the TOs. She also caused 3 nova TOs so that makes up for some of her own TOs anyway. Not all of her 4 fouls were silly either. But, I think Olsen out played her. I know NM feels slightly by the refs and sometimes she has a point, but she needs to compose herself better. Dropping F bombs at the ref isn't going to get you anywhere.
AE and Dorka continue to fail against double teams and turn the ball over. Maybe they know they have to do a bit more than they are capable and hence it happens. AE in particular, just doesn't seem to recognize the double coming and dribbles right into it. Rebounding was great although many times, Nova conceeded the rebound and ran back on defense.
Most disconcerning is that we can't get out of the 60s in 6 out of the last 7 games. I don't think that changes much with CD in the lineup, unless she consistently hits threes. Teams will make her drive and better teams will defend her drives well. Those long, slow-step, underhand scoop shots look nice, but I don't think they work as well against better teams. She does give us another good player but she isn't the answer. Of course, I'm pulling for her. The real answer is Azzi if she ever gets back this season.
Still so proud of this group! They aren't perfect but they certainly play hard. Also despite the lack of bench, they stretched out the lead in the second half and eventually handled their business in the 4th.
that said, i am wearing my husky blue glasses so maybe I'm a bit biased but......lets see,
CD and AE get smacked in the face, no call... as usual lou gets mugged, no call, lou gets fouled while shooting, no call, AE gets fouled on put back, no call, NM gets body checked into another player...foul on NM, NM boxing out and gets a foul, AE reaches around a player and slaps the ball out of bounds and gets called for a foul. i think i have forgotten a few others. now did we play physical with Maddy, well of course we did but I think it was reasonably within the rules of BB.
anyway, we won and played great defense, although nova did miss some open shots. most disappointing is that GA doesnt even think that Yana deserves even a minute of time.
Too many TOs from NM, although as stated before, many of the great assist players of all time, routinely were league leaders in TOs. I don't entirely fault NM for all the TOs. She also caused 3 nova TOs so that makes up for some of her own TOs anyway. Not all of her 4 fouls were silly either. But, I think Olsen out played her. I know NM feels slightly by the refs and sometimes she has a point, but she needs to compose herself better. Dropping F bombs at the ref isn't going to get you anywhere.
AE and Dorka continue to fail against double teams and turn the ball over. Maybe they know they have to do a bit more than they are capable and hence it happens. AE in particular, just doesn't seem to recognize the double coming and dribbles right into it. Rebounding was great although many times, Nova conceeded the rebound and ran back on defense.
Most disconcerning is that we can't get out of the 60s in 6 out of the last 7 games. I don't think that changes much with CD in the lineup, unless she consistently hits threes. Teams will make her drive and better teams will defend her drives well. Those long, slow-step, underhand scoop shots look nice, but I don't think they work as well against better teams. She does give us another good player but she isn't the answer. Of course, I'm pulling for her. The real answer is Azzi if she ever gets back this season.
Still so proud of this group! They aren't perfect but they certainly play hard. Also despite the lack of bench, they stretched out the lead in the second half and eventually handled their business in the 4th.
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Classic moment: Dorka in the low post defended by Siegrist who is standing well within the restricted arc. Dorka goes goes up with the ball colliding with Siegrist in the process. A whistle is blown but not on Maddy. Why not? The foul is called on a different player. Dorka beat Maddy to the spot, had better position, had the right to take the shot.
Now personally, I’m in favor of not whistling Maddy for that play because, though she’d been outplayed there, the contact was inessential to the play. She gained no advantage. I don’t think anyone should have been whistled. This is what folks mean when they say the refs should have evened up the fouls on Aaliyah. But really do that and Siegrist fouls out in the 3rd quarter which would have ruined the game needlessly.
There’s going to be contact in the low post, and it is perverse to think there won’t be, or to try to overpolice it. Similar contact at the perimeter is a very different story.
Now personally, I’m in favor of not whistling Maddy for that play because, though she’d been outplayed there, the contact was inessential to the play. She gained no advantage. I don’t think anyone should have been whistled. This is what folks mean when they say the refs should have evened up the fouls on Aaliyah. But really do that and Siegrist fouls out in the 3rd quarter which would have ruined the game needlessly.
There’s going to be contact in the low post, and it is perverse to think there won’t be, or to try to overpolice it. Similar contact at the perimeter is a very different story.
Bigboote
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It sure looked to me like the third foul was on purpose. She was angry before it and smiling afterwards. She wanted to hit something, orange or not, and it calmed her down.
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Refs were bad yesterday, more so than usual. It wasnt just the inconsistency (ticky-tac vs no calls for mauling). But, they even missed basic out-of-bound possession calls. There was one play in particular. AE under the basket going up for a score. 2 VU players to contest her shot. Shot gets blocked out of bounds. Very borderline foul. On replay, looked like VU player got part of the hand. No call. OK. It was one of those plays where the ball came off both players' hands at the same time. You would need instant replay to determine who it went off. So, the logical call is either: a foul on VU or UConn ball. Instead, refs gives possession to VU?!? AE looked dumbfounded as did most of the TV viewers.
The game came very close to unwatchable in the 2Q due to horrendous refs. I hope the league takes ref quality seriously or it will turn viewers off.
The game came very close to unwatchable in the 2Q due to horrendous refs. I hope the league takes ref quality seriously or it will turn viewers off.
I have to disagree there. Azzi on the court means more rest for Lou and Nika and probably won't impact Aubrey much at all minutes wise.
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Oldude, I always look forward to reading your posts before and after games. You are one of the more knowledgeable posters and there are many on the BY.
Regrading the fouls, most fans, no matter the team, complain about the refs in tight games. Fouls are fouls, however, commuting a non shooting foul vs. a shooting foul and fouls when the other team is in the bonus can skew the stats a bit. If I am not mistaken, I believe that three of Nika’s fouls were non-shooting fouls. The last foul that she committed, where she was “trucked” into Maddy by Olsen was when Nova was in the bonus. Nova committed “deliberate” fouls in the 4th qtr to stop the clock and they came when UCONN was in the bonus. Therefore, most fans will say, this/ that team shot more free throws compared to our team.
Tonyc
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Nova had problems scoring because UConn played great defense and it seemed to me only Maddy and Olsen were shooting the ball. The Nova offense was looking for them and it seemed nobody else wanted to take a shot thus Maddy and Olsen were forcing shots which contributed to their poor shooting percentages. Another problem was it appeared at times to many of the Nova players couldnt create their own shot and some of that had to do with UConns height inside as well as UConns quickness.
Just having Caroline on the floor made a huge difference with Novas defense. Caroline is a threat to score which made Novas defense have to guard her. Caroline also knows how to move without the ball which force defenses to have to switch to guard her. That was huge in that UConn on offense was moving constantly. Now just think when Azzi gets back. One more ball handler, one more great shooter, one more player who moves great without the ball and all this will force defenses to change their approach guarding UConn. We wont see so much standing around and players not looking for their shot or afraid to take a shot. This will also cut down on TOs .
Just having Caroline on the floor made a huge difference with Novas defense. Caroline is a threat to score which made Novas defense have to guard her. Caroline also knows how to move without the ball which force defenses to have to switch to guard her. That was huge in that UConn on offense was moving constantly. Now just think when Azzi gets back. One more ball handler, one more great shooter, one more player who moves great without the ball and all this will force defenses to change their approach guarding UConn. We wont see so much standing around and players not looking for their shot or afraid to take a shot. This will also cut down on TOs .
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Players should not have to adjust twice in the same game to officiating. Call it the same way all game...even if it's not to the liking of coaches or players.
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What did we learn from the Villanova Game
-Lou is underrated. Don't be surprised if she goes in the top 10 of the draft.
-Siegrist is a great player and scorer but initiates a lot of contact and flops a lot.
-Nika isn't a true point guard. She plays great defense but as a point guard, she needs to be more of a scoring threat. She isn't an exceptional ballhandler (which is why teams trap and are successful). She does orchestrate the offense but 80% of her assist comes from the transition game. Too many turnovers. In the half-court game too many times there is no time management awareness when the shot clock is running down she will pass the ball with one second to someone else to take a rushed shot.
-Caroline would benefit from sitting out a few more games. If incidental contact Is going to affect you like that then your def not fully healthy. The game plan is to play UCONN physical so this might not bode well for her if she isn't fully healthy.
-Azzi could possibly sit out the rest of the year. I hope not since UCONN title hopes rest on her coming back and being healthy. She has played in 9 games and in order to receive a redshirt medical exemption she can't play in 30% of the games. 31 games to be played, 9 games played =30%. The injury must also be considered season-ending. If she doesn't play in the Big East Tourney then it's possible she won't return. Her mother Katie had career-ending knee surgery plus Azzi has already had to recover from a torn ACL and MCL in high school on the same right knee so its only natural to be cautious. Whatever she decides i'm still riding with Azzi and UCONN.
-Lou is underrated. Don't be surprised if she goes in the top 10 of the draft.
-Siegrist is a great player and scorer but initiates a lot of contact and flops a lot.
-Nika isn't a true point guard. She plays great defense but as a point guard, she needs to be more of a scoring threat. She isn't an exceptional ballhandler (which is why teams trap and are successful). She does orchestrate the offense but 80% of her assist comes from the transition game. Too many turnovers. In the half-court game too many times there is no time management awareness when the shot clock is running down she will pass the ball with one second to someone else to take a rushed shot.
-Caroline would benefit from sitting out a few more games. If incidental contact Is going to affect you like that then your def not fully healthy. The game plan is to play UCONN physical so this might not bode well for her if she isn't fully healthy.
-Azzi could possibly sit out the rest of the year. I hope not since UCONN title hopes rest on her coming back and being healthy. She has played in 9 games and in order to receive a redshirt medical exemption she can't play in 30% of the games. 31 games to be played, 9 games played =30%. The injury must also be considered season-ending. If she doesn't play in the Big East Tourney then it's possible she won't return. Her mother Katie had career-ending knee surgery plus Azzi has already had to recover from a torn ACL and MCL in high school on the same right knee so its only natural to be cautious. Whatever she decides i'm still riding with Azzi and UCONN.
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Disagree. Yes she lost her composure after that 2nd foul but she would have to have been a saint not to react angrily. It was the first time in a very long time that she allowed something like that to throw her off of her game. I put it down to playing all those minutes finally getting to her. Also she straightened herself out and finished out the game, I can remember a time when she would have fouled out.
oldude
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OK. So I just rewatched the entire game, which is something I like to do, once I know the outcome, so I can view the game the way a coach might, after the fact.
You mention non-shooting fouls on Nika. There were a bunch of non-shooting fouls also called on Nova for touch fouls in the post against Aaliyah as well as several illegal screens.
Nika’s 4th foul was most definitely a bad call by the ref who did not have an angle to see the initial push by Olsen. Refs sometimes make mistakes. In retrospect, the ref probably should’ve consulted with the other refs for their take, although either ref could’ve called for a conference if they saw the call differently.
As far as late game, deliberate fouls, Nova committed 3, after which UConn converted 4/6 FT’s. While I recognize that people will disagree with my take on this, the foul calls/non-calls evened out over the course of the game with a slight advantage to UConn.
oldude
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Well said. You have succinctly expressed my concern with inconsistency by the refs yesterday.
I went through this one other game to prove the fallacy of the people who don’t know how TOs are given to a particular player. A TO is ALWAYS given to the passer until the receiver has clearly established possession. I did this once before, having coached and scouted basketball I am pretty adept at breaking down film; so here goes -
Edwards had 6 TOs, one of which was hers statistically but really was created by a disconnect between Muhl and Senechal :
1st qtr
9:25, clean pass from Griffin for a layup, Edwards did not go right up strong but hesitated, called for walking
2nd qtr
9:04, drives from the top of the key, contact with defenders, no foul, called for walking
8:35, called for 3 seconds
3rd qtr
6:13, loses jump ball after hustling for loose ball after a disconnect on a pass between Muhl and Senechal. One comment, I think this play is an example of a fair amount of the “head scratching” TOs. Senechal cut across the lane, Muhl led her to where she thought she was going but Senechal stopped, creating the loose ball Edwards wound up involved in. TO was certainly just statistical for Edwards not created by anything resembling a mistake but rather by her hustle.
4th qtr
4:08, receives pass cleanly on the move, dribbles ball off her foot, out of bounds
1:38, Uconn running clock, receives post pass cleanly, holds the ball inviting the triple team, has pass out tipped and stolen
Juhasz had 5 TOs, one of which was similar to the one Edwards got on the tie up in that it was created by her hustle, not a mistake
2nd qtr
8:08, called for illegal screen
6:47, drives from the key one on one, tied up by the defender, Nova has the arrow
0:08, throws pass out of bounds
3rd qtr
4:40, her pass is intercepted
4th qtr
8:01, hustles for ball headed out of bounds after a Uconn missed shot, saves it to Nova player, a statistical TO only
This breakdown shows none of the TOs credited to Edwards and Juhasz had anything to do with them being put in position to turn the ball over by any other player
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Yes, the numbers evened out... mostly. But the impact of the fouls was not at all even. It's not just a numbers game. Bumping a shooter in the paint doesn't change much, and in most cases probably shouldn't even be called as long as no advantage is gained. But the same thing on the perimeter is quite different. Similarly, bumping and holding a cutter is not at all the same as the pushing and shoving that goes on in the low post.
oldude
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I absolutely agree that all fouls are not created equal. Perhaps I should have said that the impact of the fouls/non-calls evened out over the course of the game imo.
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Well Caroline got elbowed in the face after being out for almost two months for a confusion with no foul called have multiple aggressive knocks to UConn players heads with no calls. Those could be season and career ending fouls that are no calls. Who knows how Caroline will be feeling this week after that hit. It’s absurd to say the fouls evened out when we could be suffering the consequences of no calls for weeks.
It’s strange how I rarely see UConn’s opponents going down with hits to the head and yet it happens to Uconn multiple times every game.
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I also have her fouling out in the third quarter if she actually got called for all her moving screens and hack jobs
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While like any UConn fan I was screaming at the TV throughout the game (I think my wife is going out today to get noise blocking headphones), over most games the fouls even out. My issue with yesterday's game was that the speed of the game seemed too fast for the refs. I remember several clear fouls that could have been called intentional that were not called. Likely the Villanova fans remember a few as well. With 3 refs, sad to see them just stare at obvious calls, then for the next few minutes call every touch a foul in makeup mode.
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