UConn's Shifting Starting Lineup?

[Phil]

Just because it is interesting, let's throw some additional information into the mix.

I think we all agree that Geno has not started frosh, except for injuries. What isn't clear is whether he is philosophically opposed to ever doing so, or has a more pragmatic approach. There's some evidence that he is more a pragmatist than doctrinaire.

He famously didn't start DT, and no one argues (I don't think ) that she wasn't talented, she was enormously talented and got a lot of playing time. I think he has explained he likes to have frosh on the bench, so they can watch how the game starts, and he can counsel them in the (relative) calm of the bench, as opposed to yelling at them on the floor.

I think the key issue for him is the experience, or lack thereof, rather than pure skill issues.

With that in mind, let's look at the USA Basketball of DT and Stewart, prior to joining UConn. (DT played on many other USA team after her freshman year)



Taurasi U18 5 games

Stewart U16 5 games
Stewart U17 8 games
Stewart U19 9 games
Stewart Pan Am 4 games

So DT had 5 games under her belt, while Breanna has 26. Moreover, the U19 games for Breanna had some college kids on the team, and the Pan Am experience involved all college kids, other than her.

To avoid a possible straw man, I am not opining on the relative skill levels of each player. Both are enormously talented, and DT went on to become one of the, if not the best player in the world. Far too early to tell whether Stewart can fill those shoes. But she clearly is talented, and my point is she comes to the table with far more international experience than DT had at the same time in her career.

If Geno's main concern is lack of experience, Breanna may have the experience to be a starter before her sophomore year. I'm not saying she will be, but I don't think it is the stretch some suggest.

 

[trisailin]

If I recall correctly, there were several instances last year where Caroline was specifically put back into a game (simply) to bring order to what otherwise had become helter-skelter ball. It's called LEADERSHIP. It's about decision making. Caroline has demonstrated commendable performances on both counts.
I agree with the position that if she is "getting her lunch handed to her", then Geno will make a change, but unless that is the case, Caroline is a starter.

 

[JoePgh]

Let me add a few new points to this discussion:

1. To those who argue for the "all-upperclassmen" starting lineup of Bria / Caroline / Kelly / KML / Stef, I would say that I don't expect this because it is essentially a 4-guard lineup. Using such a lineup was a necessity last year, but not this year. This year we have enough bigs that 2 can play at a time, and I think their contributions will demand that. Kelly at the 4 was seriously out of position, and that will not be repeated.

2. I would not assume that Stef has the starting center role locked up. Kiah may very well take it from her. Kiah has more athletic ability (speed and leaping, especially), and if her work ethic and maturity are there, it could be hers to lose. This will be determined in the practices starting October 15.

3. (Mentioned in previous threads but not in this one): Geno will want to avoid having all 3 freshmen on the court simultaneously before the game is decided. To avoid that virtually requires that one freshmen be in the starting lineup; otherwise it will almost certainly happen at the first substitution. All 3 of the freshmen will need to play, and deserve to play, major minutes, but not at the same time.

4. KML is a natural 3 -- really the only one on the team. That's where she has to be in the starting lineup.

5. That means only 2 true guards can start, and that would have to be Bria and Kelly. Sadly, Caroline will have to team up with Moriah (what a sad fate!) on the "second pair" of guards. Caroline and Moriah will actually make an outstanding pairing -- experience and knowledge combined with skill and athleticism.

6. So my starting lineup would be (for all games at all points in the season except senior night): Bria, Kelly, KML, either Stewart or Tuck depending on who practices better, and either Stef or Kiah depending on who wins that competition.

7. And of course I agree that what really counts is minutes, not the starting lineup. I think that in competitive games, everyone except Heather and possibly Brianna Banks will get between 15 and 25 minutes, and it will be rare for someone to get more minutes than that. If anyone does, it will be Kelly and/or KML.

 

[Forty_four]

Your argument is one of playing time. Unless you believe she should play 0 minutes, I fail to see what that has to do with starting.

Doty average 23 mins in the 13 top games last season. I expect that to fall to about 15, but she's hardly incompetent.
Elite 8 against Kentucky: 29 mins, 6 reb, 4 ast, 1 steal vs 1 TO

DOTY, Caroline 10-10 211 21.1 9-34 . 2 6 5 4-19 . 2 1 1 6-7 . 8 5 7 4 19 23 2.3 20 0 23 16 0 12 28 2.8

Although the print is small, these are Caroline's stat line from the final 10 games of last season. In this mix, taken from the offical uconn web site, she shot 26% from the floor, 21% from 3 range and averaged 2.8point/game. Also, elite guards were able to readily penetrate against her defensively.

This is why her starting position could be in jeopardy by tournment time. Offensively, it was difficult having her and Kelley on the floor at the same time last year against the better teams, and with Kelley being one of the best defensive guards in the country, she won't be the one sitting at crunch time.

IMHO, if Stewart is not starting by year end then she has not lived up to her sky high potential or this team is a juggernaut that does not need tinkering by GA.

 

[Icebear]

One thing Caroline does very well is to help establish a good rhythm at the start of the game. She works well to help control rushing out of the gate. And in those games when that doesn't happen I doubt we have anyone else that would succeed in those circumstances any better than her.

 

[Icebear]

I chose to leave our only AA Bria out of the starting lineup (BE and NCAA tournaments) in order to Test an underlying hypothesis (that may or may not be vailid) I have that some members of this Board express their support of the team unevenly.

While there were numerous (dare I say "loud") reactions to my leaving Caroline and Kelly out of my hypothetical lineups. There were far fewer reactions to my leaving Bria out. Why is that?

Because believing that Bria wouldn't start was simply so far over the line I suspect most were left in stunned silence.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Because believing that Bria wouldn't start was simply so far over the line I suspect most were left in stunned silence.

Exactly...frankly, it deserves the sound of silence.

 

[meganmatthews]

. . . . . . . . . just sitting . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . in stunned silence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . are those crickets? . . . . . .

 

[doggydaddy]

Because believing that Bria wouldn't start was simply so far over the line I suspect most were left in stunned silence.

Hey, I commented. It was one of the dumbest things I've read on this board. And now that I know it was said to get comments intentionally, it makes the poster a clown.

 

[rocky rococo]

While we all know the incoming class is ridiculously talented, Geno will start the proven upperclassmen throughout the season. Paige and Bambam start every game.

 

[alexrgct]

If I recall correctly, there were several instances last year where Caroline was specifically put back into a game (simply) to bring order to what otherwise had become helter-skelter ball. It's called LEADERSHIP. It's about decision making. Caroline has demonstrated commendable performances on both counts.
I agree with the position that if she is "getting her lunch handed to her", then Geno will make a change, but unless that is the case, Caroline is a starter.

Caroline is very good at getting the halfcourt offense set, and in scenarios where the lineup is being dumb and/or is struggling with a press, I'd expect to see her in there. However, she had a tough season shooting, and her assist stats weren't great either. That is why she and Kelly on the floor simultaneously was problematic at times.

The question is how predictable this issue is. It just doesn't make sense to me to say, "We'll risk spotting Baylor a run to start each half and pull Caroline if that's what happens" if that is indeed what you expect will happen.

Example: the BET finals last season, ND held a lead to start the game until KML came in and led a Uconn run. Then the exact same thing happened to start the second half. If that's predictably happening, why allow it to?

Bear in mind that I'd like nothing more than to see Caroline have an extremely productive, healthy, and fulfilling final season. I'm just concerned that we not repeat some of the relative offensive woes of last season.

 

[Kibitzer]

This is what I have to take exception with. Caroline did not hit her shots last year against the kinds of teams Uconn will have to beat to meet its goals. She was flat out awful against Baylor and not especially effective against ND. Additionally, although she does a great job getting the offense set against pressing/trapping teams, and is a terrific presser/trapper herself, she was nowhere near our best passer.

In other words, against elite teams, the offense stalled with both her and Kelley in there at the same time.

Now, if she is physically improved from last year, this is an entirely different conversation. But if she is at or close to the same level as last year, Odyssesy Sims will eat her lunch and come back for seconds. I know people don't like to hear that, but that's the reality of the situation.

The argument that she has to start because she can't get cold after warming up is ridiculous. She came in and out of games for all sorts of reasons last year.

If she starts all year, it will be because a) her knee is much improved (possible), b) no one else has lived up to their preseason or high school hype (certainly possible but unlikely), or c) Geno is stubborn (definitely true, but he's morphed in a number of ways as a coach over the years).

Yes, other players could play more minutes off the bench than Caroline does as a starter. However, I watched the offense stall against elite teams enough last year not to think that's a desirable approach. My expectation is that if this team scratches the surface of how good it can be, we've got a two game season with 37 glorified exhibitions on our hands. The problem is, in those two games, Baylor is way too good to spot them a lead in the first five minutes of each half.

Everyone loves Caroline, but we need to see the player she was before her third ACL injury for it to make sense for her to start all year.

If/when the day comes when Caroline does not deserve to start, she and Geno and CD will all know it and matter will be dealt with in a sensitive but decisive manner. a la Paige Sauer not like the now notorious AD in Knoxville handled a delicate situation.

 

[Kibitzer]

Let me add a few new points to this discussion:

1. To those who argue for the "all-upperclassmen" starting lineup of Bria / Caroline / Kelly / KML / Stef, I would say that I don't expect this because it is essentially a 4-guard lineup. Using such a lineup was a necessity last year, but not this year. This year we have enough bigs that 2 can play at a time, and I think their contributions will demand that. Kelly at the 4 was seriously out of position, and that will not be repeated.

2. I would not assume that Stef has the starting center role locked up. Kiah may very well take it from her. Kiah has more athletic ability (speed and leaping, especially), and if her work ethic and maturity are there, it could be hers to lose. This will be determined in the practices starting October 15.

3. (Mentioned in previous threads but not in this one): Geno will want to avoid having all 3 freshmen on the court simultaneously before the game is decided. To avoid that virtually requires that one freshmen be in the starting lineup; otherwise it will almost certainly happen at the first substitution. All 3 of the freshmen will need to play, and deserve to play, major minutes, but not at the same time.

4. KML is a natural 3 -- really the only one on the team. That's where she has to be in the starting lineup.

5. That means only 2 true guards can start, and that would have to be Bria and Kelly. Sadly, Caroline will have to team up with Moriah (what a sad fate!) on the "second pair" of guards. Caroline and Moriah will actually make an outstanding pairing -- experience and knowledge combined with skill and athleticism.

6. So my starting lineup would be (for all games at all points in the season except senior night): Bria, Kelly, KML, either Stewart or Tuck depending on who practices better, and either Stef or Kiah depending on who wins that competition.

7. And of course I agree that what really counts is minutes, not the starting lineup. I think that in competitive games, everyone except Heather and possibly Brianna Banks will get between 15 and 25 minutes, and it will be rare for someone to get more minutes than that. If anyone does, it will be Kelly and/or KML.

You make a very persuasive case for more size (and, arguably, more skill) in the front court. Excellent analysis.

Let's see how this plays out.

 

[doggydaddy]

Let me add a few new points to this discussion:

1. To those who argue for the "all-upperclassmen" starting lineup of Bria / Caroline / Kelly / KML / Stef, I would say that I don't expect this because it is essentially a 4-guard lineup. Using such a lineup was a necessity last year, but not this year. This year we have enough bigs that 2 can play at a time, and I think their contributions will demand that. Kelly at the 4 was seriously out of position, and that will not be repeated.

2. I would not assume that Stef has the starting center role locked up. Kiah may very well take it from her. Kiah has more athletic ability (speed and leaping, especially), and if her work ethic and maturity are there, it could be hers to lose. This will be determined in the practices starting October 15.

3. (Mentioned in previous threads but not in this one): Geno will want to avoid having all 3 freshmen on the court simultaneously before the game is decided. To avoid that virtually requires that one freshmen be in the starting lineup; otherwise it will almost certainly happen at the first substitution. All 3 of the freshmen will need to play, and deserve to play, major minutes, but not at the same time.

4. KML is a natural 3 -- really the only one on the team. That's where she has to be in the starting lineup.

5. That means only 2 true guards can start, and that would have to be Bria and Kelly. Sadly, Caroline will have to team up with Moriah (what a sad fate!) on the "second pair" of guards. Caroline and Moriah will actually make an outstanding pairing -- experience and knowledge combined with skill and athleticism.

6. So my starting lineup would be (for all games at all points in the season except senior night): Bria, Kelly, KML, either Stewart or Tuck depending on who practices better, and either Stef or Kiah depending on who wins that competition.

7. And of course I agree that what really counts is minutes, not the starting lineup. I think that in competitive games, everyone except Heather and possibly Brianna Banks will get between 15 and 25 minutes, and it will be rare for someone to get more minutes than that. If anyone does, it will be Kelly and/or KML.

1. KML is not an upperclassman. Please don't rush her to graduate. Faris handled the 4 just fine. If the issue is a "4 guard" lineup, well, it didn't hurt UConn or ND last year. And you won't see that lineup for more than 8-10 minutes a game. Much ado about nothing.

2. I would. Stokes hasn't shown that she should be starting over Dolson and with the clear remade body of Dolson, I don't see it happening. Stokes is going to be terrific off the bench.

3. There are countless ways to shuffle the players around and not have all 3 freshman on the court at the same time. And 90% of the games will be decided by halftime so Geno will be able to play them together with no issues. And I'm curious. Did Geno say this about playing the 3 freshmen together? Or was that your assumption.

4. In a starting lineup with Dolson, Hartley, Faris, Doty and Lewis, KML IS playing the 3. Where was someone having her other than that?

5. No, Geno will have Doty and Hartley will start the game together at the guard positions. But he will make moves quicker than last year. And he won't necesarrily take out both guards at the same time and rotate in pairs.

6. Ok, that is who you would start. And it's a great starting lineup. But is this who you think Geno will start?

7. I believe that Hartley, Faris, Lewis and Stewart will get 20-25 minutes a game. The rest of the 100 minutes will be split among the other 7 players.

 

[msf22b]

So this thread has wisely morphed into a less doctrinaire discussion of the realities associated with the team's apparent weakness, at guard functioning at the start of games, last season, at Faris' perhaps playing out of position, of Geno's past practice of showing loyalty to senior leadership and to the possibility of so much talent and even experience among the underclassman, that greater flexibility in minutes and roles is indicated.

We often heap acclamation on coaches who win with lesser talent. Perhaps the opposite is even more telling.

And with all references to oversized contributions, Tuck, who might wind up the 2nd or 3rd most gifted talent on the team has been given short-shrift among the on-going discussion of new and returning combatants.

What a splendid dilemma for Signore Geno!

 

[winlots]

Just because it is interesting, let's throw some additional information into the mix.

I think we all agree that Geno has not started frosh, except for injuries. What isn't clear is whether he is philosophically opposed to ever doing so, or has a more pragmatic approach. There's some evidence that he is more a pragmatist than doctrinaire.

He famously didn't start DT, and no one argues (I don't think ) that she wasn't talented, she was enormously talented and got a lot of playing time. I think he has explained he likes to have frosh on the bench, so they can watch how the game starts, and he can counsel them in the (relative) calm of the bench, as opposed to yelling at them on the floor.

I think the key issue for him is the experience, or lack thereof, rather than pure skill issues.

With that in mind, let's look at the USA Basketball of DT and Stewart, prior to joining UConn. (DT played on many other USA team after her freshman year)



Taurasi U18 5 games

Stewart U16 5 games
Stewart U17 8 games
Stewart U19 9 games
Stewart Pan Am 4 games

So DT had 5 games under her belt, while Breanna has 26. Moreover, the U19 games for Breanna had some college kids on the team, and the Pan Am experience involved all college kids, other than her.

To avoid a possible straw man, I am not opining on the relative skill levels of each player. Both are enormously talented, and DT went on to become one of the, if not the best player in the world. Far too early to tell whether Stewart can fill those shoes. But she clearly is talented, and my point is she comes to the table with far more international experience than DT had at the same time in her career.

If Geno's main concern is lack of experience, Breanna may have the experience to be a starter before her sophomore year. I'm not saying she will be, but I don't think it is the stretch some suggest.

PHIL - nifty. Really nifty.

 

[winlots]

FRYER -a tip o'the cap to ya.....you got a very animated thread going.....it happens, but it doesn't happen a whole lot.

 

[Icebear]

1. KML is not an upperclassman. Please don't rush her to graduate. Faris handled the 4 just fine. If the issue is a "4 guard" lineup, well, it didn't hurt UConn or ND last year. And you won't see that lineup for more than 8-10 minutes a game. Much ado about nothing.

2. I would. Stokes hasn't shown that she should be starting over Dolson and with the clear remade body of Dolson, I don't see it happening. Stokes is going to be terrific off the bench.

3. There are countless ways to shuffle the players around and not have all 3 freshman on the court at the same time. And 90% of the games will be decided by halftime so Geno will be able to play them together with no issues. And I'm curious. Did Geno say this about playing the 3 freshmen together? Or was that your assumption.

4. In a starting lineup with Dolson, Hartley, Faris, Doty and Lewis, KML IS playing the 3. Where was someone having her other than that?

5. No, Geno will have Doty and Hartley will start the game together at the guard positions. But he will make moves quicker than last year. And he won't necesarrily take out both guards at the same time and rotate in pairs.

6. Ok, that is who you would start. And it's a great starting lineup. But is this who you think Geno will start?

7. I believe that Hartley, Faris, Lewis and Stewart will get 20-25 minutes a game. The rest of the 100 minutes will be split among the other 7 players.

Well said, DD.

 

[meyers7]

Let me add a few new points to this discussion:

1. To those who argue for the "all-upperclassmen" starting lineup of Bria / Caroline / Kelly / KML / Stef, I would say that I don't expect this because it is essentially a 4-guard lineup. Using such a lineup was a necessity last year, but not this year. This year we have enough bigs that 2 can play at a time, and I think their contributions will demand that. Kelly at the 4 was seriously out of position, and that will not be repeated.

I don't believe people are arguing Hartley/Doty/Faris/KML/Dolson. They are arguing Hartley/Doty/KML/Faris/Dolson. And even though she was out of position, for starting line-ups, I believe it will be repeated.

2. I would not assume that Stef has the starting center role locked up. Kiah may very well take it from her. Kiah has more athletic ability (speed and leaping, especially), and if her work ethic and maturity are there, it could be hers to lose. This will be determined in the practices starting October 15.

Although Stokes has improved and shown some potential, Dolson is quite a bit better than her at this point. Especially from an offensive standpoint.

3. (Mentioned in previous threads but not in this one): Geno will want to avoid having all 3 freshmen on the court simultaneously before the game is decided. To avoid that virtually requires that one freshmen be in the starting lineup; otherwise it will almost certainly happen at the first substitution. All 3 of the freshmen will need to play, and deserve to play, major minutes, but not at the same time.

ummm, no he won't. He had 3 freshmen on the floor at the same time last year a few times. He's never had a problem with that.

4. KML is a natural 3 -- really the only one on the team. That's where she has to be in the starting lineup.

See 1. Also, Kelly really is a 3 also, and Stewart probably is too, although both will play the 4 quite a bit.

5. That means only 2 true guards can start, and that would have to be Bria and Kelly. Sadly, Caroline will have to team up with Moriah (what a sad fate!) on the "second pair" of guards. Caroline and Moriah will actually make an outstanding pairing -- experience and knowledge combined with skill and athleticism.

Unfortunately Faris is not really a 2. Nor is she really a 1. She doesn't shoot well enough for the 2, nor handle the ball well enough for the 1. Yes she can and does play them sometimes, but she is not ideal for them. She is really a 3. She probably at this point in her career can play the 4 better than the 1 or 2 spots.

6. So my starting lineup would be (for all games at all points in the season except senior night): Bria, Kelly, KML, either Stewart or Tuck depending on who practices better, and either Stef or Kiah depending on who wins that competition.

You are most likely gonna be disappointed then.

7. And of course I agree that what really counts is minutes, not the starting lineup. I think that in competitive games, everyone except Heather and possibly Brianna Banks will get between 15 and 25 minutes, and it will be rare for someone to get more minutes than that. If anyone does, it will be Kelly and/or KML.

Agree, I don't see more then 25 minutes very often for anyone. But I would think it would be likely to be Hartley if anyone. I think this will be Hartley's team this year. She will be the floor leader.

 

[slimmer56]

As long as Kelly Faris is healthy, she starts every game the rest of her career at UCONN !

 

[RadyLady]

The armchair coaches have freshman starting. These are the folks who shout the loudest when things aren't going well. Thank God Geno's the coach.

 

[slimmer56]

On Caroline Doty :
Ice is right in saying she sets a good tempo for the offense. Also if she is on the bench and Geno wants he to do something, she knows exactly what he wants.Has she lost a step ? Perhaps. But you can't have her leadership on the bench, what's more, she has had a year of playing with her bad knee. Don't be surprised if she shoots the rock much better, and shows a quicker step.
You just can't sit her.

On Stef Dolson :
I just don't get Kiah starting over Stef. Stef's teammates adore her. She busts her butt setting screen s for shooters. She rolls to the basket, she is deadly from the elbow, she blocks shots, and she rebounds !
I think she cuts down on fouling this year, and I think she is the 2nd best center in wcbb, and getting better every game.
Keep your eye out for Stef this year !

 

[winlots]

SLIM - Your two notes on Doty and Doslon: Two consecutive pins! Roll up the mat.