UConn's Shifting Starting Lineup?

[meyers7]

Well, with just 10 days until Opening Night, I thought it would be interesting to share my ideas about how I see UConn's starting lineup shifting as the season progresses.

First Game Lineup:

Bria, Caroline, KML, Kelly and Stef.

First/Second BE game:

Bria, KML, Breanna, Kelly and Stef.

BE Tournament and NCAA's:

Moriah, KML, Breanna, Morgan and Stef/Kiah (situational - depening upon who we are playing).

Peace,

John Fryer

I know I'm a little late jumping in here, but gonna have to agree more with doggy. Here's my prediction assuming no injuries, (when they come, as they always do, there will be changes):

First game Lineup:
Hartley, Doty, KML, Faris, Dolson

Senior Nite Lineup:
Hartley, Doty, KML, Faris, Buck.

And that's it. I could see a game here or there where Doty doesn't start due to her knee acting up, but other than that, it seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[meyers7]

You probably missed the thread where Olde Coach essentially made this same statement. I'll pose this in the form of a quiz. A former squad had 10 eventual WNBA players/draftees, 5 Olympians, and 2 greatest players in the world at their positions. At least two out of the threesome Doty, Buck and Banks will have to far surpass expectations for that feat to be duplicated, and that's assuming that everyone else will deliver on expectations by the end of their careers. Can you name the year of that other squad?

Hint: They did not win the championship that year, though the first six games of that season featured what some have claimed was the best college basketball they've witnessed.

Was just gonna post about this. IMO anyway. 2000-2001 team started, at least until injuries, Ralph, Abrosimova, Shumaker, Bird and Cash I believe. Which left Williams, Jones, KJ, Taurasi and Battle coming off the bench (along with Conlon, Valley, Rigby and Czel) and Moore was red-shirted that year.

 

[doggydaddy]

I know I haven't posted here often in a long time, but I believe hell has frozen over...I agree with doggydaddy! I think the starting line-up all season barring injury will be Caroline, Bria, KML, Faris and Stef. He will tinker with in game lineups depending on matchups. And during crunch time...I think we will probably see Stewart on the floor. The rest of our team has too much talent and experience to not be on the floor at the end of the game. Anyone who thinks Kelly Faris won't be playing the last minutes of close games is crazy...she almost singlehandedly won a game in the FF last year.

I think you would be surprised on how often we agree.....lol.

Hey, you had 3 posts in September! Welcome back!

 

[sarals24]

Was just gonna post about this. IMO anyway. 2000-2001 team started, at least until injuries, Ralph, Abrosimova, Shumaker, Bird and Cash I believe. Which left Williams, Jones, KJ, Taurasi and Battle coming off the bench (along with Conlon, Valley, Rigby and Czel) and Moore was red-shirted that year.

That's what I meant! I got my years mixed up.

 

[Vowelguy]

Was just gonna post about this. IMO anyway. 2000-2001 team started, at least until injuries, Ralph, Abrosimova, Shumaker, Bird and Cash I believe. Which left Williams, Jones, KJ, Taurasi and Battle coming off the bench (along with Conlon, Valley, Rigby and Czel) and Moore was red-shirted that year.

The 99-00 bench with KJ, Williams, Jones, Hansmeyer, & Sauer wasn't too shabby either.

 

[doggydaddy]

The 99-00 bench with KJ, Williams, Jones, Hansmeyer, & Sauer wasn't too shabby either.

We have been blessed as UConn fans with some terrific teams.

I don't know who is better, but Stewart, Buck, Tuck, Banks, Stokes and Jefferson are an amazing bench.

 

[meyers7]

We have been blessed as UConn fans with some terrific teams.

I don't know who is better, but Stewart, Buck, Tuck, Banks, Stokes and Jefferson are an amazing bench.

We may look back on this bench someday and be amazed. Let's hope so.

 

[Phil]

The 2001 year had an amazing bench. Can any other team in the history of wcbb say they had a bench with two future Olympians?

The 2012 bench has that potential. Will be fun to watch.

 

[VAMike23]

We may not have a sixth woman, we may have a second wave.

Sorta like Team USA this past summer ...

 

[msf22b]

Lets review some important points:

I've always thought that if Ms Caroline is to resemble the player of yore it would be this season, two years removed from injury as per an earlier poster and as I so noted last year.

But if Caroline is as last year, Ms Banks is a revelation and the frosh are as advertised, then it is altogether possible that as the season progresses her starting spot may be reconsidered; Geno's warmup discussion notwithstanding.
We're not running a lonely hearts club here

It was earlier also mentioned that Stewie thrived against college competition as a high-schooler. Is that not a bit of a mischaracterization?...Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that she was the most dominant player on the floor as a high school kid in an all-star college situ. I think few of us expect less from her at UConn. I don't know if that guarantees her a starting slot or not.

I think John's idea is based on the theory (as again earlier stated) that this group could possibly be the most gifted class of all time. And that if they are ready to perform at the highest level, w/o the usual 1st year adjustment and if that sheer talent is demonstrated at both ends of the court in a manner so profound and self-evident, then Geno might be compelled to at least to consider an arrangement such as John suggests.

And being the outstanding coach he is, he will not necessarily follow precedent just for the sake of continuity.
But of course Caroline might also be a revelation as well as Kiah, Banks, Buck...

 

[Vowelguy]

But if Caroline is as last year, Ms Banks is a revelation and the frosh are as advertised, then it is altogether possible that as the season progresses her starting spot may be reconsidered

For the zillionith time: Geno adjusts playing time, not starting positions.

The only way Caroline does not start:
(1) Doty stops trying in practice.
(2) Doty regresses to the point where she is throwing 10 TOs a game and is getting beat by her man every time.
(3) UConn loses lots of games (or plays horribly in wins) and a change is needed.

Care to place odds on any of these happening?

 

[bruinbball]

Sure:

 

[msf22b]

For the zillionith time: Geno adjusts playing time, not starting positions.(Vowelguy)

I'm sorry, I just don't believe that Geno is that doctrinaire, past precedents notwithstanding

 

[John Fryer]

Here is what bugs me. And John, feel free to address this.

You have made posts on starting lineups before. Controversial ones at that. Like the OP in this thread.

Then several posts are made in response to your outrageous lineup choice. But you rarely defend your position with any analysis or reasoning.

So, let me ask you directly. Clearly something has to have gone amiss with the team for Geno to make these changes. What are you seeing in UConn's upcoming performances that would do that.

And why would you think that starting 3 freshman over seniors and juniors including one that was an AA last year is a good idea?

Fair enough. And what follows represents an effort to respond. IMHOs, of course!

Most of the time I don't respond to posts that are critical of my points of view because: a) the reasonableness of the point of view expressed; I can agree with some if not all of the point of view as presented; or I get the impression that further discussion is point less.

On the other hand with respects to this particular thread:

I chose to leave our only AA Bria out of the starting lineup (BE and NCAA tournaments) in order to Test an underlying hypothesis (that may or may not be vailid) I have that some members of this Board express their support of the team unevenly.

While there were numerous (dare I say "loud") reactions to my leaving Caroline and Kelly out of my hypothetical lineups. There were far fewer reactions to my leaving Bria out. Why is that?

As I have tried to make clear in previous posts, I believe that there are serious implications for UConn when a team is able to effectively employ the "Waltz Defense" against us.

A consequence of the "Waltz Defense" is that the less than well guarded player, in this case Kelly, is able to "pad the stats sheets" in a number of catagories. For example, if I recall correctly, Kelly had two games in which she made significant contributions. In the first game, it may have been against ND, she scored in the high teens and had her usual all around game.

But why, after that game, did her numbers fall off in most stats catagories (if my memory serves me well)? Yes. Is the obvious answer (again, if my recollection is correct) in that opposing teams began to ignore the "Waltz Defense" and began to pay more attention to her both on defense and offense.

My evaluation of Caroline's contributions to the program is obviously different than some BYs (perhaps quite a few BYs).

As I recall she had (prior to injury) two/three games in which her contributions on the floor and scoring were very effective. But, she wasn't consistently effective. Nor did she demonstrate the kind of consistent effective leadership on the floor that so many BYs attribute to her.

(It also bothers me that some BYs were/are unwilling to acknowledge that during her senior year Maya was the leader on the floor. Period. And that the current leader on the floor is our only AA Bria Hartley!)

[Remarks attributing ethnic and racial attitudes to other Boneyarders deleted. Being a provocateur is kind of marginal, John. And you take it over the line by dragging in this crap out of the blue. You may respond to me, if you wish, by PM only. -- JS]

Peace,

John Fryer

P.S.: I never use "Peace" as a perjorative!

 

[Kibitzer]

This topic doesn't deserve the many reps it gets. The starting five is certain (barring injury or illness).

Caroline starts. Period. She is a senior and a leader and she can still hit her shots.

Bria starts. She is an All-American, the best all around player on the team, and the next to have her number hoisted up on the wall in Gampel.

Kaleena starts. The next All-American, the leading scorer.

Stef starts. She is UConn's best low-post player and arguably the second best center in the country.

Faris starts. We all know why.

Breanna, Morgan et al will play. The number of minutes is up to Geno.

Next year, two players will replace Kelly and Caroline in the starting lineup. The only sure thing is that their names will not be Goring, Walker or Delle Donne.

 

[msf22b]

Wow John, that's pretty inflammatory stuff.
I surely would like to hear more detail about the racial claim.

____________

The inflammatory stuff is gone and won't return.

The two of you can discuss it by PM if you want. -- JS

 

[diggerfoot]

P.S.: I never use "Peace" as a perjorative!

You in essence confess to baiting with bringing this topic up yet once again, this time by an omission of Hartley. I was not going to respond precisely because I sensed this as baiting, and was disappointed when I saw so many responses within a few hours. While I never thought of your signature "Peace" as pejorative, baiting and then signing off with "Peace" is insincere. Let me make this clear: I'm not calling you insincere because I don't know you, but your signature is in this case.

 

[bruinbball]

Fair enough. And what follows represents an effort to respond. IMHOs, of course!

Most of the time I don't respond to posts that are critical of my points of view because: a) the reasonableness of the point of view expressed; I can agree with some if not all of the point of view as presented; or I get the impression that further discussion is point less.

On the other hand with respects to this particular thread:

I chose to leave our only AA Bria out of the starting lineup (BE and NCAA tournaments) in order to Test an underlying hypothesis (that may or may not be vailid) I have that some members of this Board express their support of the team unevenly.

While there were numerous (dare I say "loud") reactions to my leaving Caroline and Kelly out of my hypothetical lineups. There were far fewer reactions to my leaving Bria out. Why is that?

As I have tried to make clear in previous posts, I believe that there are serious implications for UConn when a team is able to effectively employ the "Waltz Defense" against us.

A consequence of the "Waltz Defense" is that the less than well guarded player, in this case Kelly, is able to "pad the stats sheets" in a number of catagories. For example, if I recall correctly, Kelly had two games in which she made significant contributions. In the first game, it may have been against ND, she scored in the high teens and had her usual all around game.

But why, after that game, did her numbers fall off in most stats catagories (if my memory serves me well)? Yes. Is the obvious answer (again, if my recollection is correct) in that opposing teams began to ignore the "Waltz Defense" and began to pay more attention to her both on defense and offense.

My evaluation of Caroline's contributions to the program is obviously different than some BYs (perhaps quite a few BYs).

As I recall she had (prior to injury) two/three games in which her contributions on the floor and scoring were very effective. But, she wasn't consistently effective. Nor did she demonstrate the kind of consistent effective leadership on the floor that so many BYs attribute to her.

(It also bothers me that some BYs were/are unwilling to acknowledge that during her senior year Maya was the leader on the floor. Period. And that the current leader on the floor is our only AA Bria Hartley!)


Peace,

John Fryer

P.S.: I never use "Peace" as a perjorative!

Kelly averaged 12 points against Penn State, Kentucky and Notre Dame in the NCAA tourney to finish up the end of the year. I am sure by then none of those teams knew who she was either? Correct? The only game she scored in double figures against ND in the 11-12 season was the Final Four game.

If you want to assume I root for Kelly more than the other Huskies (not that you pointed fingers directly at me)...you may have a point - but anyone who has read this board the last four years knows that. It's hard not to pull for someone that is vastly underappreciated, not from the Husky fan base - they do a great job, but from the WBB community as a whole. It doesn't hurt that I also watched every game her last few seasons in high school as well. So, yes I definitley root for Kelly above and beyond my normal appreciation for the Husky program. After Kelly graduates, I will do the same for Morgan Tuck!

 

[Kibitzer]

deleted

It pisses me off that you introduce such an incendiary allegation with no documentation. Dislike of Geno's flippancy is one thing . . .[mod edit].

Either double down and document that allegation or walk it back. [neither will occur here]

 

[alexrgct]

This topic doesn't deserve the many reps it gets. The starting five is certain (barring injury or illness).

Caroline starts. Period. She is a senior and a leader and she can still hit her shots.

This is what I have to take exception with. Caroline did not hit her shots last year against the kinds of teams Uconn will have to beat to meet its goals. She was flat out awful against Baylor and not especially effective against ND. Additionally, although she does a great job getting the offense set against pressing/trapping teams, and is a terrific presser/trapper herself, she was nowhere near our best passer.

In other words, against elite teams, the offense stalled with both her and Kelley in there at the same time.

Now, if she is physically improved from last year, this is an entirely different conversation. But if she is at or close to the same level as last year, Odyssesy Sims will eat her lunch and come back for seconds. I know people don't like to hear that, but that's the reality of the situation.

The argument that she has to start because she can't get cold after warming up is ridiculous. She came in and out of games for all sorts of reasons last year.

If she starts all year, it will be because a) her knee is much improved (possible), b) no one else has lived up to their preseason or high school hype (certainly possible but unlikely), or c) Geno is stubborn (definitely true, but he's morphed in a number of ways as a coach over the years).

Yes, other players could play more minutes off the bench than Caroline does as a starter. However, I watched the offense stall against elite teams enough last year not to think that's a desirable approach. My expectation is that if this team scratches the surface of how good it can be, we've got a two game season with 37 glorified exhibitions on our hands. The problem is, in those two games, Baylor is way too good to spot them a lead in the first five minutes of each half.

Everyone loves Caroline, but we need to see the player she was before her third ACL injury for it to make sense for her to start all year.

 

[meyers7]

I chose to leave our only AA Bria out of the starting lineup (BE and NCAA tournaments) in order to Test an underlying hypothesis (that may or may not be vailid) I have that some members of this Board express their support of the team unevenly.

While there were numerous (dare I say "loud") reactions to my leaving Caroline and Kelly out of my hypothetical lineups. There were far fewer reactions to my leaving Bria out. Why is that?

Ah so as a couple on here have questioned, you do post to provoke.

But why you ask? Could be a couple reasons. 1) You removed Hartley toward the end of you post and maybe some of the people had already come to the conclusion your line-ups were rather silly prior to even getting to the Hartley part. or 2) It's so completely ludicrous that Hartley wouldn't be starting, that they didn't want to even bother responding.

Lastly, let me try to explain, in part, why I am critical of coach A:

1. I believe that (public) flipancy is uncalled for in a coach/athlete relationship.

That is arguable. Some I'm sure would agree. Although others would/could argue Geno is not flippant, but rather sarcastic.
[mod edit]

Second, I assume you are back to your provoking again.

 

[Vowelguy]

Yes, other players could play more minutes off the bench than Caroline does as a starter. However, I watched the offense stall against elite teams enough last year to think that's a desirable approach.

Your argument is one of playing time. Unless you believe she should play 0 minutes, I fail to see what that has to do with starting.

Doty average 23 mins in the 13 top games last season. I expect that to fall to about 15, but she's hardly incompetent.
Elite 8 against Kentucky: 29 mins, 6 reb, 4 ast, 1 steal vs 1 TO

 

[alexrgct]

Second year in a row people are forgetting she's our best player. You think she would have proved it, considering she was our best player in pretty much every single big game Uconn played.

...except Stanford, BET championship game, and the national semis. But yes, she will start pillar to post.

 

[alexrgct]

Your argument is one of playing time. Unless you believe she should play 0 minutes, I fail to see what that has to do with starting.

Doty average 23 mins in the 13 top games last season. I expect that to fall to about 15, but she's hardly incompetent.
Elite 8 against Kentucky: 29 mins, 6 reb, 4 ast, 1 steal vs 1 TO

I addressed this very point later in post from the section you are quoting:

Yes, other players could play more minutes off the bench than Caroline does as a starter. However, I watched the offense stall against elite teams enough last year not to think that's a desirable approach. My expectation is that if this team scratches the surface of how good it can be, we've got a two game season with 37 glorified exhibitions on our hands. The problem is, in those two games, Baylor is way too good to spot them a lead in the first five minutes of each half.

 

[alexrgct]

One other note about this:

The point is being made that Geno has never started a freshman over a senior, or really played around much with lineups period within a season, except as a result of injuries. And yes, UConn has been blessed with a number of uber-talented freshmen historically. However, what is relatively unique is:

• A returning starter (and starting units as a result) manifestly had issues that might be addressed by incoming wunderkind.
• There were not injuries that forced Geno to make a change, thereby taking the decision out of his hands.

You could say that maybe Sales could have started over Pam Webber in 1994-95, but that was a really stout starting unit that played very well together, and conversely the bench was pretty thin and needed someone like Nykesha. Otherwise, when has he had the opportunity to make this decision? He was returning the entire starting lineup of a team that won a national championship the year prior in 2000-01. D wasn't going to start over two returning All-Americans without there being injury issues. In 2007-08, we really have no way of knowing for certain what would have happened if Mel and Kalana had stayed healthy, but I have a hard time believing Maya wouldn't have eventually cracked the starting lineup.

In other words, do we really have a decent sample size of analogous past seasons that predicts what Geno will do this year?

Again, I don't think it matters one bit who starts in 37 of UConn's games next year. I do think it matters for two games.