UCONN wins in spite of Geno

[boontonbomber]

Never have understood why people here are jumped on for wondering about the moves, or lack of moves, by the coaches. Seems to me that that's part of the discussion that goes on in any forum made up of passionate fans of a team. Why not wonder why Gabby was left in the game , only to pick up her 3rd foul with 3+ quarters still to play? I yelled at the tv then, and again yelled to get Samuelson out after she got her 2nd foul in the second quarter. Sorry, gotta wonder why they weren't yanked. Actually , why should I be sorry?

 

[CocoHusky]

Never have understood why people here are jumped on for wondering about the moves, or lack of moves, by the coaches. Seems to me that that's part of the discussion that goes on in any forum made up of passionate fans of a team. Why not wonder why Gabby was left in the game , only to pick up her 3rd foul with 3+ quarters still to play? I yelled at the tv then, and again yelled to get Samuelson out after she got her 2nd foul in the second quarter. Sorry, gotta wonder why they weren't yanked. Actually , why should I be sorry?

I think this forum is the perfect place to "reasonably" wonder about such things. Unreasonable though is the title of this thread which implies that we have an incompetent coach and perfect players.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Agree, giving those fouls was a brilliant strategy. Execution, not so much. Partly due to communication problems. Those can be easily fixed. I'm sure Geno will talk the team through what he was trying to accomplish there at the end. (They probably realize it already, but in the heat of the moment, things didn't work as they should have.)

More coaches should do this. 1) in close games getting to the bonus so that if you need to foul to try 3 for 2, you are able to 2) with fouls to give disrupting the offense is a good thing, make the team inbound the ball 3) if you're ahead it takes away the 3 ball (or should, Nurse ) only giving the team a chance for 2 FTs and then they foul and it becomes a FT shooting contest while your team is in the lead. Don't give them the chance to tie or take the lead.

Most Coaches (and I've heard that Geno is one) usually practice every final second game management scenario. As you say--especially with a team new to playing together--cross communications happen. If Geno had discussed what his intend was--I believe he did--the team should have known what was expected. To put it another way defecation occurs!

 

[BroadwayVa]

I think this forum is the perfect place to "reasonably" wonder about such things. Unreasonable though is the title of this thread which implies that we have an incompetent coach and perfect players.

Perfectly said!!

 

[Baroloboy]

Big Geno fan for almost 2 decades. Best coach in WCBB by a mile but it can't be denied that he had a bad game last night. No need to reprise the questionable decisions he made during the game as set forth in this thread. But the bigger issue was that the team was simply not adequately prepared. 17 turnovers and a turnover margin of -8. Last year average turnover per game was 11 with a turnover margin was +8.9---that's a difference of almost 16.9 in the turnover margin. In addition 21 fouls. I understand that this is the first game of the year but this was a coaching failure. The good news is that it can be and will be addressed.

 

[CocoHusky]

Most Coaches (and I've heard that Geno is one) usually practice every final second game management scenario. As you say--especially with a team new to playing together--cross communications happen. If Geno had discussed what his intend was--I believe he did--the team should have known what was expected. To put it another way defecation occurs!

It sure didn't look like it. With 21 seconds left in the game Napheesa was at the free throw line shooting two. It important that she shooting 2 because there is no more 1 and 1 in WCBB. The strategy (to foul) and communication (exactly who fouls & when) & the decision on what defense after the fouls shots, should have taken place while Napheesa was at the line. A common trick that coaches use to extend the time without using a time out is to sub in between foul shots. This forces the refs to acknowledge the subs and buys the coach more time. Also because FSU did not have any time outs it gives the coach a chance to see the Offense being set up. So if the strategy was to foul this is where you might sneak sub a player like Crystal or Molly to protect Saniya from her 5th foul.
The decision to foul was not made until the ball was almost at half court and Geno picked the double wrong person Saniya. Double wrong because Saniya had 4 fouls (as did Gabby, Kia, KLS) and also wrong because in WCBB there is nothing that says you have to foul the person with the ball. 2) UCONN did not pressure the inbounds pass so FSU could have advanced the ball to half court without the clock moving. Napheesa only had 2 fouls the perfect execution of the strategy would have been for Napheesa to grab the closest person to her in a FSU jersey-just like FSU did to her a few seconds earlier.
One last point, Brown made a heady play by shooting the ball on the Nurse foul. How did she know she was going to get fouled? Because she was standing right there when Geno told Kia to foul.

 

[reno tony]

These seasons are fun to watch, and GREAT to see in person, but it's tough to be a mod. There are lots of cranky-pants on the board when UConn doesn't win by 40.

You got that right. Some of you sound like the fair weather fans on, dare I say it, the Volnation.

 

[reno tony]

BobbyJ---I don't much like agreeing with someone who disagrees with Geno's game management--but i thought the same thing. in my stupid unpracticed coaching opinion i thought Geno's use of Dangerfield was some of his best coaching--and leaving Gabby in to get her 3'd within 4 minutes of the beginning of the game--wasn't. So now all my brownie points for supporting Geno have been used up agreeing with you--what shall i do now"/???? And not one atta-boy in sight.

I thought the same about Gabby until she sat out the rest of the first half. Sitting on that bench must have been terrible for her and will make her think a little about being so aggressive early in the game. Maybe that was his lesson for her.... or not. Anyways.... atta-boy!

 

[Vancat]

These seasons are fun to watch, and GREAT to see in person, but it's tough to be a mod. There are lots of cranky-pants on the board when UConn doesn't win by 40.

omg the men's board is beyond cranky.

 

[meyers7]

Not with that much time left. And not with a 7-player rotation in heavy foul trouble. Maybe with 5 seconds or so to go.

Nope, that's exactly when you would do it. Under the time clock. Strategy was good, it wasn't executed well. Agree, you don't have players (ball handlers) on 4 fouls carrying this out.

Also, they weren't taking the lead down three.

You don't play for the tie away. Don't let them get a chance at a 3.

Again, good strategy, poor execution. First game of the season, first time they've been in a close game in a long time, we'll have to give them a little room for error.

 

[B BLOCK]

Having Chong foul out was a bad choice. She was the only hot hand in the game at the time, she carried Uconn the 4th quarter. Kia was just over zealous, I don't think Geno wanted that foul there. Yes the fouls were needed, he just had the wrong people make them.
In hindsight, it worked out with Dangermouse being hardened by fire at the end. This will be an exciting season, less blow outs but more competitive games.
Chong just may emerge and carry this team a long way.......if people will just stop picking at every little thing she does.

 

[meyers7]

When Geno was questioned about this team's lack of experience & height, he remarked, nevertheless, he was going to have a 'lot of fun' coaching this team'. I did not get that impression last evening. It also seemed that the coaches were asleep, on the bench, in regard's to the team foul count. However, congratulations to the players on there first season win !

I thought it looked like he was having plenty of fun. He was calling plays, coaching. He seemed to enjoy it. Something different.

 

[meyers7]

Never have understood why people here are jumped on for wondering about the moves, or lack of moves, by the coaches. Seems to me that that's part of the discussion that goes on in any forum made up of passionate fans of a team. Why not wonder why Gabby was left in the game , only to pick up her 3rd foul with 3+ quarters still to play? I yelled at the tv then, and again yelled to get Samuelson out after she got her 2nd foul in the second quarter. Sorry, gotta wonder why they weren't yanked. Actually , why should I be sorry?

Because people who actually watch UCONN games know Geno will leave players in while in foul trouble, one's he trusts, to see how they will react, if they can perform while under pressure. He's done it for years. He expects his "leaders" to be able to perform. Especially finding out whether they can or not in a non-conference early season game. They may need to do that (or not based on the results) in the tourney at some time.

 

[Ukonnfan]

BOY, do I have to disagree with that. Officiating was terrible. The calls ranged from mass fouling with no call to silly touch fouls. Several times the whistle sounded WELL after the play, as if the officials either didn't know who was supposed to make a call OR had to make a call because there was just too much contact to ignore. The was no flow to the game largely because of the whistles (40 fouls called!). Late in the game the whistles were mostly silent (apart from "intentional" fouls), which didn't match the rest of the game. The refs protected Thomas 2-3 times down the stretch when she should have fouled out.

No, this was not a good performance on their part. Yes, it may have been the first game of the season for them, but they are professionals; they don't get to play that card.

Im watching it again at lunch. Lots of clawing and fouling and many very bad calls/no calls. Im thinkin if it was played somewhere else it might have been different. Not sure Uconn was ready for rough play. Oh yeah, and Natalie played great. Never seen so much over-the-back rebounding with no calls.

 

[CajunHusky]

1. A common trick that coaches use to extend the time without using a time out is to sub in between foul shots. This forces the refs to acknowledge the subs and buys the coach more time. Also because FSU did not have any time outs it gives the coach a chance to see the Offense being set up. So if the strategy was to foul this is where you might sneak sub a player like Crystal or Molly to protect Saniya from her 5th foul.
2. The decision to foul was not made until the ball was almost at half court and 3. Geno picked the double wrong person Saniya. Double wrong because Saniya had 4 fouls (as did Gabby, Kia, KLS) and also wrong because in WCBB there is nothing that says you have to foul the person with the ball. 4. Napheesa only had 2 fouls the perfect execution of the strategy would have been for Napheesa to grab the closest person to her in a FSU jersey-just like FSU did to her a few seconds earlier.

I renumbered the post to ask questions:

1. Subs are held at the scorer's table until after the first shot. Subs are only guarranteed to come in after the first shot; they do not come in after the second shot if it is missed. Maybe that is a trick but foul shots? maybe on inbounds plays....
2. Wasn;t the ball brought in at midcourt with 16 seconds on the clock?
3. Did Geno pick a specific person to foul? or did he instruct the team that whoever was guarding the ball should make the foul?
4. Would not a "grab" by Napheesa on a player without the ball be an obvious intentional foul? What are the rules on that? foul shots and possession?

Bottom line here is I think Geno and crew just don't have a lot of experience with end of game strategy. 2015 Maryland (4 points with a minute or so to play), 2014 Stanford and then those three ND games in 2012-13. That is the sum total of close games for UConn in the last four years

 

[Blair]

Im watching it again at lunch. Lots of clawing and fouling and many very bad calls/no calls. Im thinkin if it was played somewhere else it might have been different. Not sure Uconn was ready for rough play. Oh yeah, and Natalie played great. Never seen so much over-the-back rebounding with no calls.

I agree…I thought there were a lot of “bad calls/no calls” as well…And I agree, that Natalie played great...

IMO…looking back at the game…They were killing us on the boards…scoring, inside. When Natalie entered the game, that all slowed. Her stats do not reflect what se contributed.

 

[HopJim]

Frankly Geno's one court decisions were good and usually effective. I think he called more timeouts this game than he did all of last year. The call at the end to foul just wasn't picked up by Nurse in time to prevent the shot by Brown.

Players were so inconsistent throughout game, not sure how any coach could look good.

 

[HopJim]

Crystal is planing much better than L Cox (zero point tonight) ...LOL

I saw the few minutes L Cox played and was curious why she didn't get more time. UCLA appeared to have no one that could guard here. I guess when you have so many tall players, that is a luxury you can afford.

 

[JordyG]

Agree, giving those fouls was a brilliant strategy. Execution, not so much. Partly due to communication problems. Those can be easily fixed. I'm sure Geno will talk the team through what he was trying to accomplish there at the end. (They probably realize it already, but in the heat of the moment, things didn't work as they should have.)

More coaches should do this. 1) in close games getting to the bonus so that if you need to foul to try 3 for 2, you are able to 2) with fouls to give disrupting the offense is a good thing, make the team inbound the ball 3) if you're ahead it takes away the 3 ball (or should, Nurse ) only giving the team a chance for 2 FTs and then they foul and it becomes a FT shooting contest while your team is in the lead. Don't give them the chance to tie or take the lead.

Agreed. As I said earlier, Geno's intention was a mutual march to the foul line right to the end where he'd like his team chances with a lead. Particularly important is your point #3. Strategy is why coaches run the team from the sidelines, and the best coaches use the rules (like hack-a-Shaq or any poor foul shooting player) to their advantage.

And all you other guys, stop complaining about the foul calls. Inconsistent or not, that's the way the game IS, and as a player either you adjust to the way the game is being called, or go play or watch a game where fouls are rarely called. Like wrestling. If you don't like the current crop of refs, try playing a game without these incompetent jerks.

 

[MaineFan]

They had fools to GIVE. You use them to take away time and disrupt the opponent, granted the Nurse's inadvertent fool was unfortunate but she should have know were shed was (beyond 3 pt line).

Based on the way that we were keeping track of the numbers of fouls that Kia and Saniya had, I'd say that it was UConn that had "fools to GIVE."

 

[johnnyc]

There are lots of cranky-pants on the board when UConn doesn't win by 40.

Ha.....cranky pants. Haven't heard that one in a while. Yeah I believe they yell at themselves to get off their own lawns.

 

[BroadwayVa]

It sure didn't look like it. With 21 seconds left in the game Napheesa was at the free throw line shooting two. It important that she shooting 2 because there is no more 1 and 1 in WCBB. The strategy (to foul) and communication (exactly who fouls & when) & the?? decision on what defense after the fouls shots, should have taken place while Napheesa was at the line. A common trick that coaches use to extend the time without using a time out is to sub in between foul shots. This forces the refs to acknowledge the subs and buys the coach more time. Also because FSU did not have any time outs it gives the coach a chance to see the Offense being set up. So if the strategy was to foul this is where you might sneak sub a player like Crystal or Molly to protect Saniya from her 5th foul.
The decision to foul was not made until the ball was almost at half court and Geno picked the double wrong person Saniya. Double wrong because Saniya had 4 fouls (as did Gabby, Kia, KLS) and also wrong because in WCBB there is nothing that says you have to foul the person with the ball. 2) UCONN did not pressure the inbounds pass so FSU could have advanced the ball to half court without the clock moving. Napheesa only had 2 fouls the perfect execution of the strategy would have been for Napheesa to grab the closest person to her in a FSU jersey-just like FSU did to her a few seconds earlier.
One last point, Brown made a heady play by shooting the ball on the Nurse foul. How did she know she was going to get fouled? Because she was standing right there when Geno told Kia to foul.

No argument on that. i agree it looked like the decision to foul was as they passed half court. I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my statement Coaches (usually) work on ever possible scenario for last second situations?? Or just a statement of how you saw it??
To me the foul on Kia appeared to be on the floor before Brown decided to shoot--when did they put continuance in WCBB?
But that ship sailed--whatever corrections showed themselves last night --you can bet Geno is fixing them starting today. If you read most of my postings on Geno--I say: in Geno I trust--also, Geno is not God, he is after all human, and he makes mistakes.

 

[CocoHusky]

I renumbered the post to ask questions:

1. Subs are held at the scorer's table until after the first shot. Subs are only guarranteed to come in after the first shot; they do not come in after the second shot if it is missed. Maybe that is a trick but foul shots? maybe on inbounds plays....
2. Wasn;t the ball brought in at midcourt with 16 seconds on the clock?
3. Did Geno pick a specific person to foul? or did he instruct the team that whoever was guarding the ball should make the foul?
4. Would not a "grab" by Napheesa on a player without the ball be an obvious intentional foul? What are the rules on that? foul shots and possession?

Bottom line here is I think Geno and crew just don't have a lot of experience with end of game strategy. 2015 Maryland (4 points with a minute or so to play), 2014 Stanford and then those three ND games in 2012-13. That is the sum total of close games for UConn in the last four years

1) All correct by rule, but not by practice. Yes, players are supposed to be at the table but the common practice (trick) is to make a commotion before the refs under the basket hands the ball off to the shooter. A commotion would be the player running directly running into the line of sight of the referee and throwing off his warm ups so as if to make sure the refs know I really trying to get in this game right now! Even if the ref doesn't let you in the game he has to stop you from running onto the court-mission partially accomplished because you have delayed the action.
2) No the play I'm talking about occurred at the :21 sec mark after Napheesa made the second of her two free throws. FSU had no more time outs so the ball had to be inbounded from the FSU baseline. FSU inbounded with no UCONN pressure. Once the ball crossed half court at :16 Geno instructed Saniya to foul. It was FSU ball side out which resulted in the Nurse foul on the next play.
3) Geno instructed one player (Saniya) to foul probably because she was closest to him. Saniya was guarding the ball at the time she got the instruction and did as she was told.
4) By rule maybe. By practice in the last seconds of the game it is understood that one team may be fouling & intentional is hardly ever ever call. When Napheesa was grabbed by FSU at :21 sec mark the ball was not even in play.

I disagree with your bottom line. End of game situations is something that is practiced everyday. It would be silly of the UCONN staff to rely on the handful of games you mentioned to practice those scenarios.

 

[JordyG]

Ha.....cranky pants. Haven't heard that one in a while. Yeah I believe they yell at themselves to get off their own lawns.

FOTFLOL. Johnnyc!

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

Bottom line here is I think Geno and crew just don't have a lot of experience with end of game strategy.

A good point.

As for the rules, do what I do every season; READ THE RULEBOOK. It's not that big (~150 pages), and there is a lot of interesting info in it. BE ADVISED: you may find that some of the things that you have been 100% POSITIVE were true...aren't.

NCAA Publications - 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules and Interpretations

I know that it shows a cost, but that is just for the printed copy. Choose to download the PDF, which will open a copy of Acrobat. Then click the down arrow towards the upper right of the screen.

This doesn't give you a license to berate officials, but at least you'll know when you are justifiably miffed.

 

[CajunHusky]

I disagree with your bottom line. End of game situations is something that is practiced everyday. It would be silly of the UCONN staff to rely on the handful of games you mentioned to practice those scenarios.

I didn't say they don't practice end of game scenarios ...... I said they don't have a lot of experience in close games....

practice may prepare them for such situations, but practice does not equal experience .....

and frankly as great a coach as Geno is he has not been any better than average at managing end of game scenarios .... that may be because as much practice as certainly they must have, they simply don't have a lot of experience.

 

[CocoHusky]

I didn't say they don't practice end of game scenarios . I said they don't have a lot of experience in close games....
practice may prepare them for such situations, but practice does not equal experience .....
and frankly as great a coach as Geno is he has not been any better than average strategizing close games .... that may be because as much practice as certainly they must have, they simply don't have a lot of experience.

I think it is because UCONN practices so hard that end of close game scenarios is not something they have to experience often. Even if I were to agree with you that Geno is average at strategizing close games (I don't) I would still rather have a coach who is superior at strategizing to avoid close games as opposed to being superior at managing close games.

 

[CajunHusky]

I think it is because UCONN practices so hard that end of close game scenarios is not something they have to experience often. Even if I were to agree with you that Geno is average at 1. strategizing close games (I don't) I would still rather have 2. a coach who is superior at strategizing to avoid close games as opposed to being superior at managing close games.

wrt number 1. actually I edited my post to make clear that I meant strategizing end of game versus close games. Apparently I wasn't quick enough with my edit.
wrt number 2 I agree that Geno is an extraordinary game coach managing players, defenses, offenses whether close games or blowouts .... sometimes though in that last minute or so he struggles to close the deal.

But Yes! And I would have no other than Geno! for my coach

 

[JRRRJ]

Thanks for that link to the rules. I was wondering about the intentional foul before play, and the rulebook confirms what I thought -- it's a flagrant 1 foul. Here's the text (from page 48):

"c. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul
that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based
solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;..."

Seems to me either examples 2 or 4 are applicable to that event.

Also found out my belief about charging/blocking was incorrect, to wit (from page 8)(emphasis mine):

"...Once a defender establishes legal guarding position on an opponent with the ball by facing
the opponent with two feet on the floor, the defender may then move
laterally or obliquely to maintain her guarding position. When maintaining
legal guarding position, the defender is not required to have either foot on
the floor when contact occurs. Provided that when illegal contact occurs
the defender was not moving toward the ball handler when contact occurs,
the responsibility for contact lies with the ball handler."

This requires me to say "never mind" to a lot of refs I've castigated over the last few years. ;^/

 

[CajunHusky]

Thanks for that link to the rules. I was wondering about the intentional foul before play, and the rulebook confirms what I thought -- it's a flagrant 1 foul. Here's the text (from page 48):

"c. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul
that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based
solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;..."

Seems to me either examples 2 or 4 are applicable to that event.

Also found out my belief about charging/blocking was incorrect, to wit (from page 8)(emphasis mine):

"...Once a defender establishes legal guarding position on an opponent with the ball by facing
the opponent with two feet on the floor, the defender may then move
laterally or obliquely to maintain her guarding position. When maintaining
legal guarding position, the defender is not required to have either foot on
the floor when contact occurs. Provided that when illegal contact occurs
the defender was not moving toward the ball handler when contact occurs,
the responsibility for contact lies with the ball handler."

This requires me to say "never mind" to a lot of refs I've castigated over the last few years. ;^/

That is interesting.... the question then becomes how does that square with at least two plays I can think of where the player drives and then on the shot leans in to the defenders: examples include Sidney Wiese driving on Kia Nurse in the final four and an FSU guard actually changing direction into Saniya after the shot is released. In the Saniya case she had actually given up on the play having been beaten and was not in anyway impeding the player driving to the basket or taking the shot.