UConn Football player accused of Sex Assault

[ruskin]

While I do feel outrage about cases of false accusation, it does disrupt their lives, reputations etc, I feel 5,983,751,207,879 times more outrage on behalf all of the actual victims of assault around the world who can't get justice, for whatever institutional, cultural, religious, political reasons. I also think that if you can create a culture of respect and responsibility, you can significantly cut down the potential for false accusations.

Jungle, you and I seem to be simpatico on a lot of other (real sports talk) issues. And I agree that a real victim of assault suffers much more than someone who has been falsely accused of rape. But a culture of respect and responsibility includes "don't tell hurtful lies" and "don't stretch the truth" as much as it does "don't hurt/violate" another person physically. My issue here is that UConn football and a so-far unnamed player are being used as convenient targets, and people don't seem to have a problem if what is being said isn't true because the overall cause is noble.

 

[HuskyNan]

Hey buddy just becuase you're friends with an ALLEGED victim doesn't mean you get to flex your internet muscles, suspend my free speech rights, or the others on this board who have issues with the credibility of your friend, who made a conscious decision to become a public figure and try to make this a national story and take down UConn football on the way. When she said "football player" that's when it became a VALID topic for this board.

I'll stop when she and Allred stop calling press conferences. I'll stop when newspapers and TV stations stop doing stories about this.

Your friend has created 105-plus suspects by her claim. Somebody needs to defend a lot of innocent players here who had nothing to do with this.

And another thing. If you are a friend of hers why didn't you or her other friends get her to a doctor after this alleged act? Her case would be a lot stronger.

This is why women don't report rapes. They are suspected of embellishing or outright lying because they don't act the way some man thinks would be logical. Have you ever held a woman in your arms while she was crying hysterically after being raped? I have. She never reported it and never went to the doctor because she believed he would report it to the police. Because the rapist was a big-man-on-campus type, she felt she would have been ridiculed as a whore or ostracized for daring to besmirch the name of the guy. This isn't unusual and young women don't generally like to make waves, to make themselves a target like that. It's a self-confidence issue, something men don't understand in my experience.

In a previous post, you mentioned that the women should prove they were raped. How? Usually it's a he-said, she-said situation and women are often viewed as over-emotional types that are exaggerating because she felt embarrassed the next day. Another reason women don't report rapes.

I have no opinion about the incidents at UConn because I have no knowledge of the facts. Sadly, I do believe it's possible that it's all possible because I have been a coed on a male-predominant campus and know how some guys that are on their own for the first time and being, essentially, young and stupid can act. I do wish that another attorney besides Allred had taken the case. I consider her to be too strident and screechy and the fact she takes it on herself to speak for all women annoys me. She also damages the credibility of the plaintiffs to some people. What should have been a serious discussion on rape and violence on the UConn campus has become a circus and she thrives on that.

 

[upstater]

This is why women don't report rapes. They are suspected of embellishing or outright lying because they don't act the way some man thinks would be logical. Have you ever held a woman in your arms while she was crying hysterically after being raped? I have. She never reported it and never went to the doctor because she believed he would report it to the police. Because the rapist was a big-man-on-campus type, she felt she would have been ridiculed as a whore or ostracized for daring to besmirch the name of the guy. This isn't unusual and young women don't generally like to make waves, to make themselves a target like that. It's a self-confidence issue, something men don't understand in my experience.

In a previous post, you mentioned that the women should prove they were raped. How? Usually it's a he-said, she-said situation and women are often viewed as over-emotional types that are exaggerating because she felt embarrassed the next day. Another reason women don't report rapes.

I have no opinion about the incidents at UConn because I have no knowledge of the facts. Sadly, I do believe it's possible that it's all possible because I have been a coed on a male-predominant campus and know how some guys that are on their own for the first time and being, essentially, young and stupid can act. I do wish that another attorney besides Allred had taken the case. I consider her to be too strident and screechy and the fact she takes it on herself to speak for all women annoys me. She also damages the credibility of the plaintiffs to some people. What should have been a serious discussion on rape and violence on the UConn campus has become a circus and she thrives on that.

And the question then becomes, why does no one speak for the victims, alleged or not, before Allred can get to them? I'd point to the Bobby Davis case again. How many years go by before this guy could get proper representation? Statute of Limitations ended two years prior to the latest allegations. A decade had gone by. No wonder Allred shows up.

 

[ruskin]

This is why women don't report rapes. They are suspected of embellishing or outright lying because they don't act the way some man thinks would be logical. Have you ever held a woman in your arms while she was crying hysterically after being raped? I have.

I appreciate the very thoughtful post, Nan. Respectfully -- given that you seem to be a sensitive, compassionate and reasonable person, I'm surprised you were unable to gently persuade her to follow up.

I'm coming at this from the view of how think I would handle it if it happened to my daughter -- specifically the getting her help and medical treatment ASAP (rape kit) part to help find the bad guy. Understood it's not an easy trip to the doctor, and that it's not a foolproof evidence-gathering method. And if someone has been drugged and legitimately has no memory of the attack understood that further complicates things.

I can tell you I would go the ends of the earth to find out who did it -- except for calling in Allred. That's where this whole UConn thing is on shaky ground. And just throwing out "a football player did it" is appalling because it slimes a whole group of people. The word "football" is why we're talking about it here.

I won't be surprised if and when the evidence comes out that the truth will lie somewhere in the middle, where neither gender will be angels.

 

[ctchamps]

This is why women don't report rapes. They are suspected of embellishing or outright lying because they don't act the way some man thinks would be logical. Have you ever held a woman in your arms while she was crying hysterically after being raped? I have. She never reported it and never went to the doctor because she believed he would report it to the police. Because the rapist was a big-man-on-campus type, she felt she would have been ridiculed as a whore or ostracized for daring to besmirch the name of the guy. This isn't unusual and young women don't generally like to make waves, to make themselves a target like that. It's a self-confidence issue, something men don't understand in my experience.

In a previous post, you mentioned that the women should prove they were raped. How? Usually it's a he-said, she-said situation and women are often viewed as over-emotional types that are exaggerating because she felt embarrassed the next day. Another reason women don't report rapes.

I have no opinion about the incidents at UConn because I have no knowledge of the facts. Sadly, I do believe it's possible that it's all possible because I have been a coed on a male-predominant campus and know how some guys that are on their own for the first time and being, essentially, young and stupid can act. I do wish that another attorney besides Allred had taken the case. I consider her to be too strident and screechy and the fact she takes it on herself to speak for all women annoys me. She also damages the credibility of the plaintiffs to some people. What should have been a serious discussion on rape and violence on the UConn campus has become a circus and she thrives on that.

Great post. I would say there are lots of men who have experienced bullying, racial, ethnic or religious and even gender marginalization or sexual abuse. There isn't a gender monopoly when it comes to human insensitivity and aggression unfortunately. Victimization occurs in many forms and far too many people suffer from insensitive behavior. And sadly many victims end up victimizing others.

 

[huskyrob1]

http://espn.go.com/college-football...huskies-football-player-accused-s e x-assault

Were there any arrests related to those seven women's complaints? Seems to me if the lawsuit against the school has a chance then arrests will have to be made at some point. Right?

 

[upstater]

Great post. I would say there are lots of men who have experienced bullying, racial, ethnic or religious and even gender marginalization or s e xual abuse. There isn't a gender monopoly when it comes to human insensitivity and aggression unfortunately. Victimization occurs in many forms and far too many people suffer from insensitive behavior. And sadly many victims end up victimizing others.

I appreciate this post, the focus should be on teaching people proper behavior. But there are too many systematic and bureaucratic obstacles to reporting at the college level, and you see them at university after university. Why are people surprised a cop might have said that when administrators have said much worse--repeatedly--at other places? There have been a ton of cover-ups of rapes involving student athletes with complicitous administrators involved. The girl at Notre Dame a year or two ago committed suicide. This even happens at the high school level first with Steubenville and now Maryville. It is certainly not simply a matter of a woman (or man or child) being victimized and then finding/investigating the culprits. Before anyone ever gets to that stage, a whole series of things can happen.

 

[HuskyNan]

I appreciate the very thoughtful post, Nan. Respectfully -- given that you seem to be a sensitive, compassionate and reasonable person, I'm surprised you were unable to gently persuade her to follow up.

There are times when a woman reports a rape she is asked:
1. Were you drinking?
2. What were you wearing?

In other words, is this assault in any way your own fault? Women go through a very traumatic time following a rape and to have to go to the police and have to convince them to even investigate is often too overwhelming for them.

Word gets around campus on how the campus police will react. If it's known among women that they will be essentially accused of causing their own rape ("spreading legs like peanut butter"), then they won't go to the cops. Again, 18-22 year old women are not generally self-confident. It takes an extraordinary young woman to gather the wherewithall to challenge the system, especially a system that watched the Duke lacrosse situation and didn't want to repeat history.

 

[HuskyNan]

I appreciate this post, the focus should be on teaching people proper behavior. But there are too many systematic and bureaucratic obstacles to reporting at the college level, and you see them at university after university. Why are people surprised a cop might have said that when administrators have said much worse--repeatedly--at other places? There have been a ton of cover-ups of rapes involving student athletes with complicitous administrators involved. The girl at Notre Dame a year or two ago committed suicide. This even happens at the high school level first with Steubenville and now Maryville. It is certainly not simply a matter of a woman (or man or child) being victimized and then finding/investigating the culprits. Before anyone ever gets to that stage, a whole series of things can happen.

I personally think that the terms Rape and S e x ual Harassment should be done away with since we already have laws against Assault & Battery and Harassment. As soon as you imply that the assault is s e x ual in nature, the woman's behavior and background are immediately questioned.

Rape is not a s e x crime, it's a crime of power, domination, and humiliation. People want to talk about a woman's s e x ual history after a rape; they really should be looking at the man's emotional makeup.

 

[huskymedic]

Were there any arrests related to those seven women's complaints? Seems to me if the lawsuit against the school has a chance then arrests will have to be made at some point. Right?

Wrong - read this as it applied to Title IX and the school's responsibility. http://knowyourix.org/title-ix/title-ix-the-basics/ This is more about the "culture" than the actual incidents.

 

[ruskin]

It takes an extraordinary young woman to gather the wherewithall to challenge the system, especially a system that watched the Duke lacrosse situation and didn't want to repeat history.

There was a rush to judgement in the Duke case led by a perfect storm of a desparate local prosecutor seeking re-election aligning with community and campus special interest groups that cost a completely innocent coach his job, and that's just for starters. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest there not be a rush to judgement in this case.

Just watched Allred on Face the State with Dennis House. Makes my skin crawl. She actually had a smile on her face talking about some of this. Sickening.

And she also unloaded on Herbst. I know it won't happen but I'd love to see Herbst debate Allred.

 

[whaler11]

When I fully agree with Nan and upstater... I sort of sit and wait for the Earth to go flying off it's axis.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

There are times when a woman reports a rape she is asked:
1. Were you drinking?
2. What were you wearing?

In other words, is this assault in any way your own fault? Women go through a very traumatic time following a rape and to have to go to the police and have to convince them to even investigate is often too overwhelming for them.

Word gets around campus on how the campus police will react. If it's known among women that they will be essentially accused of causing their own rape ("spreading legs like peanut butter"), then they won't go to the cops. Again, 18-22 year old women are not generally self-confident. It takes an extraordinary young woman to gather the wherewithall to challenge the system, especially a system that watched the Duke lacrosse situation and didn't want to repeat history.

When a man gets publicly accused of rape, his life is effectively changed forever. There is no way to un-ring that bell in the Internet age. Those Duke Lacrosse players are impacted for the rest of their life, because every employer who performs a background check will get a hit with that incident. It doesn't matter that they were found innocent. There are hundreds of candidates that never got accused of rape to hire instead of the guy who did. Why deal with it as an employer? What prospective employer wants to hear the explanation for why some guy isn't really a rapist?

So there should be some standard for deciding when to prosecute and when not to. I recognize how traumatic it can be, and I have known both women and men that were impacted by s e x ual violence. That said, if you boil down what Allred is demanding, it is that the university accept the victims' statements as fact. And if they don't, then the UNIVERSITY, not only the assailants, is liable.

I don't want to jump into specifics, but I believe Ricci in the complaint as it relates to the alleged incident. One of the other plaintiff's allegations are a little farfetched. That said, in all the cases, the plaintiffs suit should be with the alleged assailants, not the university. Think about the implications of this. You would effectively be permitting law enforcement to suspend the entire Bill of Rights in prosecuting alleged assailants of s e x ual assault.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

Nobody has to preface any of their comments. Rape is wrong and the person or persons who did it (if they did) need to be prosecuted. That's a given.

But until there is proof I'm not going to convict anyone. While rape is way under reported, there are also innocent people who are accused.

The problem with sexual assault is that it's such an intensely personal crime that there is often no proof. Rape and consensual sex can look exactly the same from a "proof" perspective, so you're stuck in a place where it comes down to believing the accuser or the accused. Yes, innocent people are accused. But I suspect it's not even close to the sheer number of victims who are disregarded or who are told they deserved it for being drunk, or dressing in certain clothes, etc. Therein lies one of the systemic problems with sexual assault. There are no real answers or solutions that I know of. Which is why it's all the more important to teach men to respect women, to understand that no is always no, that consent matters.

 

[babysheep]

In a previous post, you mentioned that the women should prove they were raped. How? Usually it's a he-said, she-said situation and women are often viewed as over-emotional types that are exaggerating because she felt embarrassed the next day. Another reason women don't report rapes.

But this does happen and cannot be ignored as a possibility. Not that every woman lies about being attacked and reports shouldn't be taken seriously, but I completely understand how some people can be skeptical about girls outing alleged in-the-spotlight attackers when stuff like this goes down:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/brian-banks-ca-football-p_n_1543992.html

This man's life is, as many other have been, ruined, and it doesn't even take conviction to at ruin a reputation forever. Just the accusation can be enough for the man to become ridiculed. It's an instant guilty verdict with no way of even proving innocence.

Doesn't excuse UConn's reaction though. It's a shame everyone isn't honest or else these cases would be a lot easier

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

But this does happen and cannot be ignored as a possibility. Not that every woman lies about being attacked and reports shouldn't be taken seriously, but I completely understand how some people can be skeptical about girls outing alleged in-the-spotlight attackers when stuff like this goes down:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/brian-banks-ca-football-p_n_1543992.html

This man's life is, as many other have been, ruined, and it doesn't even take conviction to at ruin a reputation forever. Just the accusation can be enough for the man to become ridiculed. It's an instant guilty verdict with no way of even proving innocence.

Doesn't excuse UConn's reaction though. It's a shame everyone isn't honest or else these cases would be a lot easier

Right, but the problem is, what can we do? Because sometimes people falsely accuse should we automatically disregard all accusations of sexual assault that can't be "proven"? What does proof even look like? Because you do realize that proof and consensual intercourse can look identical, right? So how do you protect the alleged victims while also protecting against possible false accusations?

 

[SubbaBub]

Right, but the problem is, what can we do? Because sometimes people falsely accuse should we automatically disregard all accusations of s e xual assault that can't be "proven"? What does proof even look like? Because you do realize that proof and consensual intercourse can look identical, right? So how do you protect the alleged victims while also protecting against possible false accusations?

-First we can stop trying to turn an assault into a battle of the sexes and treat it as the criminal complaint that it is.

-Second, we can stop creating a standard where a university has to prevent all crime on it's campus, as a portion of this suit is suggesting.

-The history of all campus PD's is an old town/gown issue that should be fixed but won't, so I won't address it. Just understand how it affects crime investigation and prosecution.

-Continue educating students on risk and behavior management on campus. I remember sitting through at least one a year in college. Covered everything from drinking, study habits, public safety, and yes, date rape.

- Add educational programs so victims know what they should do in the event they are assaulted. Tick off the list, create a website if necessary.

- Cover risk management behavior. It may be taboo to suggest the victims actions at all contribute, but short of a random assault, there are scenarios where preventative actions could prevent attacks. Not saying the attacker is less at fault or mitigates in anyway the attack. It is just risk management and being aware of your surroundings. You'd like to think you are safe on campus, but the fact is you are in a small city that has crime like any other.

I could go into a rant about how we teach our boys to win/achieve/be aggressive and our girls to fantasize about princesses (I hate Disney) and marriage but that would go on forever. Just acknowledge that this 'culture' term I despise occurs long before any freshman arrives on campus. And is about ingrained as social behavior gets in humans. Best of luck solving this that way.

- Certify anyone who might be involved in such cases on correct protocols. Comments like the one reported are out of bounds unless they are accepted procedure as part of assessing the case evidence.

- Acknowledge the outside police options.

I was unfortunate enough to go to school in a neighborhood nowhere near as safe as Storrs and I witnessed and was a victim of more crime in my time there than the rest of my life put together. If the standard is "feeling safe" then I can't support this current effort at all because that is an unfair standard impossible for the University system to meet and exposes this as a further exploitation of any victims.

 

[upstater]

- Certify anyone who might be involved in such cases on correct protocols. Comments like the one reported are out of bounds unless they are accepted procedure as part of assessing the case evidence.

This seems to me the only truly relevant point. Schools do not have such procedures in place.

But what comment are you referring to?

 

[businesslawyer]

While I do feel outrage about cases of false accusation, it does disrupt their lives, reputations etc, I feel 5,983,751,207,879 times more outrage on behalf all of the actual victims of assault around the world who can't get justice, for whatever institutional, cultural, religious, political reasons. I also think that if you can create a culture of respect and responsibility, you can significantly cut down the potential for false accusations.

Why do we have to compare outrages? I know people who have been raped, without anyone being prosecuted, and I know people who have been wrongly accused, without anyone being prosecuted. I have to say one is worse than the other? How about there is no place for either of them?

Beyond noting what are societal problems, it is dumb to be having this discussion when enough facts have not been released to discuss it intelligently. And the fact that Gloria Allred is involved is not a fact that tells you much of anything.

 

[babysheep]

Because sometimes people falsely accuse should we automatically disregard all accusations of s e xual assault that can't be "proven"?

Not that every woman lies about being attacked and reports shouldn't be taken seriously

C'mon bro

 

[SubbaBub]

This seems to me the only truly relevant point. Schools do not have such procedures in place.

But what comment are you referring to?

The alleged peanut butter comment. The reporting process for victims is incredibly difficult and yet necessary. Not being in law enforcement, I would imagine part of that process is assessing the veracity of such a serious claim. If.accurate, such a comment is probably out of line, but there must be some protocol after the initial report on how the investigation proceeds.

 

[upstater]

The alleged peanut butter comment. The reporting process for victims is incredibly difficult and yet necessary. Not being in law enforcement, I would imagine part of that process is assessing the veracity of such a serious claim. If.accurate, such a comment is probably out of line, but there must be some protocol after the initial report on how the investigation proceeds.

Probably?

I was confused because you wrote "unless they are accepted procedure." How could they be procedure?

 

[SubbaBub]

Probably?

I was confused because you wrote "unless they are accepted procedure." How could they be procedure?

I would expect law enforcement at some juncture to test the authenticity of the claim or at the very least collect statements and ask questions to ascertain the facts surrounding the case. Obviously this is a delicate task, not wanting to put the alleged victim through any more trauma, but the justice system requires it.

I assume SOP is to ask questions relating to the time line surrounding the attack because context is important to the criminal prosecution. The PB comment surely crossed a line, but it may have been a result of poor training and/or a jaded officer who shouldn't be at that job.

The complaint assumes such questions are policy or negligently allowed by the University. Short of written evidence or employee testimony, I think that is difficult to prove.

 

[upstater]

I would expect law enforcement at some juncture to test the authenticity of the claim or at the very least collect statements and ask questions to ascertain the facts surrounding the case. Obviously this is a delicate task, not wanting to put the alleged victim through any more trauma, but the justice system requires it.

I assume SOP is to ask questions relating to the time line surrounding the attack because context is important to the criminal prosecution. The PB comment surely crossed a line, but it may have been a result of poor training and/or a jaded officer who shouldn't be at that job.

The complaint assumes such questions are policy or negligently allowed by the University. Short of written evidence or employee testimony, I think that is difficult to prove.

The lack of policy is the problem, rather than policy.

 

[SubbaBub]

The lack of policy is the problem, rather than policy.

It's probably a little of both. It is a unique accusation with little in the way of witnesses, clear physical evidence, and pre-existing relationships with all the interactions and emotions associated with them. Not a job I'd want.